A run through my process and the long wait (72hrs). Any thoughts welcome!

[suitbrewing]

Fermentation is one of the areas of the brewing process that concerns me the most.

Based on the literature I have read (Yeast - elements book, forums, podcasts and articles) I have started to pitch lower than the desired primary fermentation temperature, letting the yeast slowly increase the temperature to the optimum primary fermentation temp (extending thus the lagtime).

On Sunday I pitched 2 rehydrated M54s (Mangroves, California Lager) in 23L of my hoppy lager (IPL). The wort OG was 1.054, pitch temp 15 Celsius (59F). The wort saw 90 sec of pure oxygen prior to pitching. The plan was to spend primary @ 18c (lower end to the M54s range) and to increase 2-3c to clean any diacetyl as the end.

After pitching, the fermentor was placed in my temp controlled fridge. Due to winter conditions the temperature did not rise so I decided to raise it slowly (using a germination pad) first to 16c, a few hours later to 17c and the next day to 18c.

There were no signs of fermentation for 60 hours and active fermentation (bubbling in the airlock) did not start before 72 hours.

I am suspecting that the beer will turn out just fine but the 72 hours wait is NERVERACKING!!!!

This is something that happens to me quite often (i.e. having to wait 2-3 days before visible fermentation signs). I am pretty sure there is no air leak in my fermentor (spiedel barrel).

I am not sure if the soooo long lag phase is associated with negative taste effects (I suspect not) but I am pretty sure that a shorter lag phase would be sufficient to reap the benefits associated with the extended lag phase.

A few notes on my yeast. The M54s were pretty fresh. I rehydrated early (say 60m – 90m before pitching) as I usually do. I don’t want the rehydration process to overlap with the flame out and cooling process as this is one of the busiest parts of my brew day. M54 is a lager yeast which is happy @ ale temperatures, so I rehydrated between the bottom of the ale temp and the top of the lager temp (per Mangroves recommendations). More specifically I did 30c. Following the initial stir (15 minutes after sprinkling the yeast), I re stir the rehydrated yeast every 10-15 min.

Any thoughts welcome

 

[mongoose33]

I'm no expert on yeast, learning like almost everyone else. But in reading this I had two thoughts:

1. Your time of rehydration is far too long. According to the Mangrove Jack site.: "For lager yeasts, rehydrate using 100 ml (3.4 US fl oz) of 20–25°C (68–77°F) water. Stir gently into a yeast cream for between 8-12 minutes then add yeast cream directly to wort."

You went up to 90 minutes; the yeast have nothing to eat during that time, wouldn't shock me if they went into hybernation due to lack of nutrients, or some other reaction occurred. Even that much of the yeast died before you pitched.

If there's too much to do at that point (I get it--same thing here), get the wort ready for pitching, then rehydrate, wait the few minutes for rehydration to occur, then pitch it. Clean or put away equipment while waiting.

2. There may be a milion ways to do yeast so take with a grain of salt. I typically pitch at 70 degrees (or within a couple degrees), trying to match the temp between the yeast and the wort. When I use dry yeast, after rehydrating it has cooled down to roughly the same temp as the wort. If you pitch yeast that is, say, 75 or 80 degrees into wort that's 59 degrees, you may well shock it into hybernation and it'll take a while for it to get comfortable. I always try to match the wort and yeast temp within a few degrees.

 

[kh54s10]

A couple of thoughts, Lager yeasts ferment differently than ale yeasts. They are much slower. How much headspace was there in your Spiedel. The yeast will have to work for a while to create enough co2 pressure to bubble the airlock. Fermentation also starts quite a bit before co2 really increases.

I have done a few lagers. Mine started before 72 hours but I don't know exactly when since I don't look for at least 24 hours and sometime not for a couple of days. Once I see fermentation I don't look again for at least a week.

 

[suitbrewing]

Thanks so much for the feedback! I will probably try to move the yeast re hydration after the flameout part of my process next time to see how it works for me!

I understand and appreciate what you are saying about not shocking the yeast from large temperature fluctuations.

At the same time I am not sure if it is consistent with the advice I had so far. For instance if I want to pitch M54 a couple of degrees lower than my primary fermentation temperature (say 18c – 2c = 16c) and I want to rehydrate per manufacturer’s instructions (so not lower than 30c), how would I lower the rehydrated yeast temperature from 30c to 16c without shocking the yeast especially if I only have 15 minutes from rehydration to pitch?!

 

[suitbrewing]

How much headspace was there in your Spiedel.

The spiedel in a 30L in which I ferment 23L

Fermentation also starts quite a bit before co2 really

I kept a sample in my house with the hydrometer submerged. There was no other evidence of fermentation or drop in gravity.

 

[leonardoreges]

At the same time I am not sure if it is consistent with the advice I had so far. For instance if I want to pitch M54 a couple of degrees lower than my primary fermentation temperature (say 18c – 2c = 16c) and I want to rehydrate per manufacturer’s instructions (so not lower than 30c), how would I lower the rehydrated yeast temperature from 30c to 16c without shocking the yeast especially if I only have 15 minutes from rehydration to pitch?!

There’s a technique to do this. For instance, If you want to go from 30 to 16c, take your rehidrated yeast at 30 and mix it with some wort there is at 25c, then take this and mix some more wort at 20c and finally mix it with your whole wort.

 

[leonardoreges]

You went up to 90 minutes; the yeast have nothing to eat during that time, wouldn't shock me if they went into hybernation due to lack of nutrients, or some other reaction occurred. Even that much of the yeast died before

Dry yeasts have nutrients to boost the start of fermentation. So for this long period between rehidration and pitching I don’t think there’s gonna be any yeast dead, but that the yeast is going to start using these nutrients because of lack of fermentation sugars and by the time those nutrients are really needed the lack of then is going to increase lag time.

 

[suitbrewing]

Thank you for the feedback

If I understand your suggestion correct, the following process could solve both of my issues.

• I could rehydrate yeast just before flameout.
  
  
• Do the first stir @ 15 minutes (while I am still cooling my wort)
  
  
• Add X amount of wort while I am still cooling and when the wort has reached 25C.
  
  
• Add another X amount of wort at the end of chilling when the wort has reach 16C.
  
  
• Then I would transfer and aerate the wort and then pitch
  

I would need to keep the transfer vessel sanitised to avoid introducing any infection in the rehydrated yeast. I guess I could keep it in my starsan bath.

 

[kh54s10]

Thank you for the feedback

If I understand your suggestion correct, the following process could solve both of my issues.

• I could rehydrate yeast just before flameout.
  
  
• Do the first stir @ 15 minutes (while I am still cooling my wort)
  
  
• Add X amount of wort while I am still cooling and when the wort has reached 25C.
  
  
• Add another X amount of wort at the end of chilling when the wort has reach 16C.
  
  
• Then I would transfer and aerate the wort and then pitch

I would need to keep the transfer vessel sanitised to avoid introducing any infection in the rehydrated yeast. I guess I could keep it in my starsan bath.

Seems like a lot of bother to me. When I rehydrate yeast it starts between 90f and 100f per mfg suggestion. By the time I pitch I figure both the rehydrated yeast and my wort are cooled to approximately room temperature. The wort might be a 65f and the yeast about 70f. close enough for me. Even if you pitch in a lager at about 50 degrees I wouldn't worry much. I might put the yeast in the fridge for a short time.

 

[BucksIPA]

Getting to know the particular strain is a key advatage in brewing. Ive had different strains of lager yeast start different extending lag periods. Some start pretty quickly, which requires little adjusting on the brewing level. Some will take longer on your system. Thats where getting to know the yeast and adjusting to it to get your required results come from. There are many things you can change to get a different result. If your result is faster c02 emmision, a simple fix could be a larger cell count from the start. If the end quality of the beer is best with a three day lag period, then thats the rout you go. If say your looking for 1 day lag and and a slow fermentation over a month, there are other things you can do. Its getting to know how the yeast works, they are a biological machine

 

[kh54s10]

Getting to know the particular strain is a key advatage in brewing. Ive had different strains of lager yeast start different extending lag periods. Some start pretty quickly, which requires little adjusting on the brewing level. Some will take longer on your system. Thats where getting to know the yeast and adjusting to it to get your required results come from. There are many things you can change to get a different result. If your result is faster c02 emmision, a simple fix could be a larger cell count from the start. If the end quality of the beer is best with a three day lag period, then thats the rout you go. If say your looking for 1 day lag and and a slow fermentation over a month, there are other things you can do. Its getting to know how the yeast works, they are a biological machine

I've never tried to increase lag time to change flavor profile.

But I have used the same yeast in different recipes and have gotten different lag times. Sometimes I get some signs of fermentation in as little as 4 hours and on another it takes about 24 hours. I don't think I have ever had one take longer than that.

 

[BucksIPA]

I've never tried to increase lag time to change flavor profile.

But I have used the same yeast in different recipes and have gotten different lag times. Sometimes I get some signs of fermentation in as little as 4 hours and on another it takes about 24 hours. I don't think I have ever had one take longer than that.

Lag times can be good or bad depending on the reason for it. Generally, this is creating a stressed or non stressed environment, which will determine flavor profiles and consistency.

I just brewed a lager with czech yeast i haven’t used before, it took 72 hours to get going, but when it did it went very fast. Im not sure if this is what im looking for, and will have to brew with it many times to get it right

 

[BucksIPA]

I've never tried to increase lag time to change flavor profile.

But I have used the same yeast in different recipes and have gotten different lag times. Sometimes I get some signs of fermentation in as little as 4 hours and on another it takes about 24 hours. I don't think I have ever had one take longer than that.

Lag times can be good or bad depending on the reason for it. Generally, this is creating a stressed or non stressed environment, which will determine flavor profiles and consistency.

I just brewed a lager with czech yeast i haven’t used before, it took 72 hours to get going, but when it did it went very fast. Im not sure if this is what im looking for, and will have to brew with it many times to get it right

 

[helibrewer]

Once yeast is rehydrated it should never go more than 15 minutes without the addition of some wort for nutrients, doing a tempering method (adapting the yeast to wort temperature) is a great way to provide nutrients and adjust the yeast to its future environment. Yeast consume millions of molecules of glucose per second, when they run out they transition back to a dormant phase which is not what we want when pitching.

 

[suitbrewing]

Thank you all for your wonderful insights!

Just to give an update on the specific brew. Unfortunately my initial statement “i know in the end it will turn out just fine” does not seem to be valid. I took a sample yesterday (day 6 from brew day and day 3 from active fermentation signs). Gravity is down to 1.020 (from 1.054) and there still active fermentation so the brew is going to attenuate just fine. Taste wise though the sample felt really off. I brewed the same beer 4-5 times so I know the taste of different stages very well. Compared to other instances of the same brew this time the brew has a rubbery meaty taste. I suspect its autolysis (although I appreciate that killing yeasts is a big achievement ;-) )

I got this same taste once more, a year ago and it never went away. The other time I got this same taste i brewed with a past due wlp01 liquid yeast which was subject to very high temp (i was trying to raise the temp, to get fermentatio going. I used a ceramic bulb which increased the temp at the top of the fermentor pretty high before the heat reached my temp controller probe to stop the bulb).


In terms of using the same yeast several times i should say the i have used M54 more than 5 times. I allways pitched 15c-16c. The difference was that due to whether conditions the wort temp would go up to 17c without the need to use any heat source. Inprevious instances fermentation would get going around the 24h mark.

My take away from this s thread is that in fact early re hydration could be a lot of trouble and that i should be conscious of the rehydratd yeast vs wort temp variance.

From my own experience my take away is that whne applying heat at the early stages of fermentation you are asking for trouble (using heat for cotrolling temp further down the road is fine).

 

[kh54s10]

I'm not sure about the specific off flavor you are getting but making a judgement on the taste before fermentation is done is just crazy. It will be a lot different when done.

Close that thing up for another 10 days then try again.

 

[ncbrewer]

I checked with Danstar about delays in pitching after rehydration. They answered "Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot."

 

[suitbrewing]

Ok this how the beer looks almost 3 weeks after pitching the yeast. The beer was kept at 18c for primary, was raised to 20c as a diacetyl rest and was reduced back to 18c for aging.

Do you see yeast, pelicle or mold at the top???

I think i can spot some green/blue which to me seems like mold?!

I still get the rubber like taste I was getting from the beginning of fermentation. Its a bit better than the beginning.

When I brewed this beer in the past i was getting pleasant citrusi grapefeuit like hopiness and some sulfur from the lager yeast.

Now other than the ruberry taste referred to above i get some sulfur taste but none of the citrusy hopiness.