A message to extract brewers.

[duboman]

The one thing to keep in mind through all of this conversation is that many of us are very fortunate to live in areas that have great resources for many varieties of products and ingredients but this is not true for some of the population on this forum.

We are fortunate to have many international people here as well but unfortunately they do not always have the same access and are stuck brewing kits that may not be fresh or of the best quality like some of the kits mentioned already.

 

[unionrdr]

done that myself. An '83 flying V with EMG pickups & custom repaint. A palmer strat with seymore duncan hot rails & sperzel tuners,custom bone nut. A 62 Gibson SG from the original company. And a Sears guitar that looks like a dinky with soap bar pickups & switches for rythm or lead that shuts off when the opposit is played with that switch on. We think it's a Kay. Pop got it in the 60's.
Still got my Fender Rock Pro 1000 half stack,& another small amp.
Beer is def cheaper...

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

done that myself. An '83 flying V with EMG pickups & custom repaint. A palmer strat with seymore duncan hot rails & sperzel tuners,custom bone nut. A 62 Gibson SG from the original company. And a Sears guitar that looks like a dinky with soap bar pickups & switches for rythm or lead that shuts off when the opposit is played with that switch on. We think it's a Kay. Pop got it in the 60's.
Still got my Fender Rock Pro 1000 half stack,& another small amp.
Beer is def cheaper...

Isn't that the truth.

I have a piece I'm working on now, it's an old mexican strat body. I stripped the pain and painted if fresh, have 3 different but awesome pickups for it. Since it's a HSS body I got Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates, I believe a texas special (I forget off the top of my head) and I believe a hot rais for the neck. I have just standard fender tuners but I picked up a Floyd Rose Speed Loader. May replace it with a regular rose if the speed loaders ever leave or I decide to save some money. Got some good pots, but it needs a lot of work I can't do in my apartment. Soldering the equipment in is fine but I need to do some drill work to widen some holes and that I need a press for and I need to apple more clear coat. I did the 20-25 layers like the guide I read said, but when I did that it still was coming out kinda rough so I'm gonna throw some more on there and then sand it again.

 

[yewtah-brewha]

Im not convinced extracts are all crap! I've done 4 batches, and I learn something new with each one, my first 2 were crap and barely drinkable, 3rd was a slam dunk better than any micro breww ive ever had. the 4th a coopers ipa is bottle ageing as we speak and Im not to hopefull as itsa coopers brand, but well see this weekend how the carbonation ends up. extracts for some reason get infections easier, that might be most peoples prob,

 

[HopHeadGrady]

The one thing to keep in mind through all of this conversation is that many of us are very fortunate to live in areas that have great resources for many varieties of products and ingredients but this is not true for some of the population on this forum.

We are fortunate to have many international people here as well but unfortunately they do not always have the same access and are stuck brewing kits that may not be fresh or of the best quality like some of the kits mentioned already.

I live in one of those areas. Our LHBS is more of a do it yourself wine place with a beer section at the very back. Lots of kits, very limited over priced malt, weak selection of hop pellet (Galena, Cascade, Williamette, Fuggles) and some DME. Its all about brewing cheap booze, and little focus on quality.

If it wasn't for the grain buy/malt split of my brew club I would be screwed trying to get melanoydin (sp), Caramunich I etc.

 

[ken_manke]

Couldn't it also be that it's because it was your first attempt at brewing that was why the outcome was dissapointing, NOT that it was an extract kit. No one ever thinks perhaps it's their own "fault" for their beer coming out? Because they perhaps followed the kit directions and rushed their beers, or hadn't learned about temp control, or proper yeast pitching, or aerating the yeast or any of the myrad other tips they usually pick up AFTER their first few batches. But NO, it's NEVER taken into consideration that it's because they're new at this stuff...It's ALWAYS that "crappy extract's" fault. :cross:

Talk about taking an inch and going a mile.

Don't believe I stated it was the"crappy extract's" fault. My intent wasn't to blame the extract/kit, but to state my limited experience. I absolutely do believe that a lot of the outcome had/has to do with my inexperience. I got into home brew wanting to start easy, as most, and eventually getting to where I can do AG and really make the beer my own. The OP's post encouraged me to continue perfecting this craft and once I get there the outcome will be worth while.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

Don't worry Ken, you'll get used to Revvy. Hahaha.

 

[zeg]

"AG is superior to bad extract" - no debate.

"AG is superior to extract" - conflicts with massive data from competition results. E.g., leaf through Daniels' Designing book and tally up the fraction of NHC winners that use significant amounts of extract.......

Your experience is your experience, so don't take disagreement as censorship.

 

[doctorRobert]

The problem with the extract vs all grain discussion, is that it almost always excludes the relevancy of beer styles. There are some beer styles, where extract could produce a beer as flavorfull as an all grain. Extract will never be as fresh, you'll never have the same amount of control, you'll never have the ability to he as artistic. But you can make good beer, and even some commercial brewers use extracts.

It's like buying a hamburger frozen or getting fresh ground beef. You can make a fine burger, if you get a quality frozen patty, and have the right compliments to it. But most of the time, the frozen ones aren't that great, just like most commercial malt extracts.

 

[Clonefan94]

Im not convinced extracts are all crap! I've done 4 batches, and I learn something new with each one, my first 2 were crap and barely drinkable, 3rd was a slam dunk better than any micro breww ive ever had. the 4th a coopers ipa is bottle ageing as we speak and Im not to hopefull as itsa coopers brand, but well see this weekend how the carbonation ends up. extracts for some reason get infections easier, that might be most peoples prob,

The AG vs Extract argument kind of drives me nuts as well. I started brewing extract kits, did a couple of extract recipes, then switched to AG. Not so much because I wasn't producing good beer, but more because I like the process and tend to be a DIY person who likes the idea of starting with grain. That being said, I wish the argument were more good ingredients vs. bad ingredients. I think that would be more fair. I've tasted good extract brews and bad AG brews. Just because you are brewing all-grain doesn't instantly make you a better brewer.

 

[DrVertebrae]

Time for my two cents - I have done many, many extract brews, most very good tasting if I have the patience to let them age well, and a couple of really, really good ones. I have only done one AG. It was a BIAB set up which turned out pretty good, smelled amazing while mashing and boiling, but took a while. Time is a factor in my beer brewing so I have to have a good bit of free time to do AG.

I can see the added variations you can have doing AG, but then again, with the specialty grains, extract brews have quite a bit of variablility as well.

Basically it comes down to me wanting to do more AG, but I am needing more time. Being very happy with the exract brews I've made, I think it would be fun to put it to a taste test and have some blind tastings of extract versus AG. When I was in school, some of the guys from various parts of the country griped endlessly that beef where they came from was corn fed and higher quality, thus tastier. So, we went to a local steak house and got some corn fed steaks and then to Safeway and got some regular butchers choice steaks, grilled'em and set'em out for the boys to determine which was which. We also did a blind tasting of a bunch of commercial beers.

Of the steaks, no one could destinguish between the corn fed and the safeway steaks. In many ways, I think a taste test of extract vs AG would yield much the same results.

As to our taste test of the commercial beers, we got quite a few right and we ALL got Old Milwaukie by smell alone.

 

[zeg]

Extract will never be as fresh, you'll never have the same amount of control, you'll never have the ability to he as artistic.

I know what you're getting at here, but I don't think it's true. There are recipes that cannot be made with the generally available extracts, that is true. But those are relatively rare---the vast majority of beers have middle-of-the-road fermentability, and have enough base malt that swapping in some neutral extract won't be a major change.

And I have no idea what constitutes more or less artistic. Picasso with one crayon and a piece of paper is more artistic than I would be with an entire art supply shop at my disposal. I'll only come out on top if the requirement is specifically to produce an oil painting.

Your base malt (grain or extract) is only a small piece of the beer. You have plenty of "artistic" options even if you are stuck with golden light DME for your base.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

"AG is superior to bad extract" - no debate.

"AG is superior to extract" - conflicts with massive data from competition results. E.g., leaf through Daniels' Designing book and tally up the fraction of NHC winners that use significant amounts of extract.......

Your experience is your experience, so don't take disagreement as censorship.

I don't feel censored at all. I also don't doubt that decent beers can be made with mash extract kits etc. My beef is with how sub par hopped kits are and if anything, will scare off new brewers. The Muntons kits I used were the top quality ones too. If you read the marketing about them, they read well. I didn't mean this to be an extract vs ag debate. we all have our opinions.

 

[Psych]

For what it's worth (I totally agree) there's now a few e-tailers in Canada that have their own extract kits for sale, and buying a couple at a time it's not terrible prices with shipping.

brewerspantry.com and ontariobeerkegs.com are two of them that'd I'd trust, but I've not used their kits or anything, just they stock them and I'd trust them to have fresh and good quality ingredients.

If there's any would-be extract brewers here suddenly thinking there's no hope, head to those sites and check out what they have.

 

[beergolf]

A good brewer can make good beer using Ag or extract with steeping grains or partial mash.

Given good quality fresh ingredients,. Good brewing practice. All will make good beer. Think about cooking. If you use old, bad ingredients, the food will never shine. Use good quality ingredients and it will work. Even Jacque Peppin uses some canned ingredients in his recipes.

A brewer that uses FRESH extract can make good brews. The problem is that brewers buy old extract, have poor brewing practice and then say their brews taste bad. It is not the extract but the poor brewing practice.
I have done a ton of extract with steeping grains, partial mash, and All grain recipes. using fresh ingredients, proper technique, good healthy yeast, and controling fermentation temps. Good beers can be made wih all of the above techniques.

Sure there are brews that cannot be made with extract. So all grain does give you some control that you do not have with extract, but for certain recipes it really does not matter that much.

Brew on.

 

[zeg]

I don't feel censored at all.

Ok, good. Someone upthread complained about something like that, but I think we are all just trying to share experiences and spread information. Since nobody agrees on which information is correct, this can be complicated...

I also don't doubt that decent beers can be made with mash extract kits etc. My beef is with how sub par hopped kits are and if anything, will scare off new brewers. The Muntons kits I used were the top quality ones too. If you read the marketing about them, they read well. I didn't mean this to be an extract vs ag debate. we all have our opinions.

In that context, I don't disagree. I know from my own experience that good beer can be made with extract, but I've never used hopped or canned extract. I've certainly not heard much good about the hopped stuff. When I was first starting out and the sum of my knowledge came from an old edition of Papazian's book, I thought I would start with a hopped extract, but I did enough reading to change plans and do DME+crystal+hops.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

I was just talking about this thread to another brewer last night who stopped over and my wife mentioned that her fav beer out of all my brews is indeed a mash/extract. I made this DME+Pilsner Malt+Cara-Pils+Cascade Lager with s-23 last summer. Like a centennial blonde lager thing. I also late additioned a tiny amount of slightly burnt orange peel and lemon rind. That combined with cascade gave a very nice crisp front end and a citrus backend. The lighter mouthfeel the DME makes it an easy drinker and was key to this beer.

My Muntons pre hopped kits cannot even be compared to that beer at all. I know I keep flogging this dead horse, I just want people to know there is life beyond the can and the differences in quality are tenfold.

 

[unionrdr]

I think the gap is closing a bit with the new extract malts coming out. Like marris otter & munich LME's. I've gotten into partial mash myself,& the one that used DME instead of gold LME goes in the fridge tonight. When the Cooper's heritage lager can comes in next week,I'll be brewing another members dark lager recipe but adding German haulrtauer & some rauchmalt to his grains (carahell & chocolate malts). Using the Cooper's can with a PM should prove interesting with the WL029 yeast. So I think it really comes down to process & imagination.

 

[mactard]

My two cents...

Most of the points that people are making are valid. My preffered method is extract with some steeped grain for depth and flavor. I don't do it this way because it is my favorite (my best was an AG made with a buddy who had experience with that method) but because this best suits my balance between time/effort/quality. I am also not above throwing together a Cooper's kit when I'm in a pinch and the larder is getting a bit lean.

Enjoy what you do for what it is. Great thread!

Mac

 

[Yooper]

But thats just it, I wasn't expecting much from it. I just wanted to throw down a quick brew and have drinkable beer. I wanted to see if it was as bad as some people say. Indeed, it was.

I am sure there's decent extract out there, I am not doubting that.

That was my experience as well. Coopers, Munton's and John Bull prehopped kits all claim tasty drinkable "lager" beer, and I never once got a decent product out of it. Part of it is the quality of the extract (canned), the quality of the yeast (poor for Muntons and Cooper's) and the rest is the instructions. Sure, you can "tweak" them, but you shouldn't be forced to change them to make them decent.

There are lots of brewers worldwide that do like the quick and easy and "not horrible" brew that results, especially when cheap beer is not available (Canada) to them.

I have had really good results with other "kits", though. Fresh kits with quality extract and yeast, and fresh grains and hops, HAVE made very good beer. Sometimes those type of beers, when made well, win competitions.

I think there is a world of difference between a can of Cooper's prehopped LME as a "kit" and a quality group of ingredients from Austinhomebrew.com.

I was very happy with extract brews that were done well.

One of the major motivations for me to brew AG and AG only was the cost. It's about $16 a batch for AG beer for me, and the same extract batch would have been more than $35- quality extract is expensive!

 

[Fatcougar]

Ok, the OP is either TakeSomeAdvice or his twin Brother.... Am I the only one picking up on this....LOL.

 

[BxBrewer]

Well i think his title should be " A message to all pre hopped can extract brewers". Like others, i brew extract and have stopped there. I havent had a want to go AG. I dont really have the time or space for it. Space as in the extra gear. I do have a doubble tap kegorater, 3 fermenters and a brew bench. I dont have a garage or outside space. Some apartment dwellers can not use propane"sp".

I think its kind of unfair to throw all extract brewers into one catagory. If extract brewing today was so inferior. They wouldn't develop it. Most large supply stores wouldnt carry much of it.

I do here and understand when some say that extract is expencive. Compaired to AG yes, Compaired to store bought craft brew ? no....

 

[Homercidal]

Well i think his title should be " A message to all pre hopped can extract brewers". Like others, i brew extract and have stopped there. I havent had a want to go AG. I dont really have the time or space for it. Space as in the extra gear. I do have a doubble tap kegorater, 3 fermenters and a brew bench. I dont have a garage or outside space. Some apartment dwellers can not use propane"sp".

I think its kind of unfair to throw all extract brewers into one catagory. If extract brewing today was so inferior. They wouldn't develop it. Most large supply stores wouldnt carry much of it.

You know that if you bought a nylon paint strainer bag at the hardware store for a few dollars you could do AG using the same equipment you already have. Just mash an extra strong wort and dilute after boil as per normal.

It's a cheap and easy way to give AG a try. Some people stick with this method after they try it.

 

[sonofgrok]

I have done several beers using briess malts that have turned out great. Not kits mind you buy still. I wouldn't completely write off extract.

 

[BxBrewer]

You know that if you bought a nylon paint strainer bag at the hardware store for a few dollars you could do AG using the same equipment you already have. Just mash an extra strong wort and dilute after boil as per normal.

It's a cheap and easy way to give AG a try. Some people stick with this method after they try it.

BiaB is a great method ! But just storing that amount of grain would be a hassle for me. I can store the extract and steaping grains,yeast in my kegorator. Enough for two batches. As it is now im trying to figure out a way to brew on my bench in the man cave and get out of the kitchen.

 

[unionrdr]

I have to brew on the kitchen stove,but the rest happens in the mancave. parial boils AE or partial mash biab are what I can do with what I have. Good process & attention to detail yeild good beer wither way.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

You know that if you bought a nylon paint strainer bag at the hardware store for a few dollars you could do AG using the same equipment you already have. Just mash an extra strong wort and dilute after boil as per normal.

It's a cheap and easy way to give AG a try. Some people stick with this method after they try it.

I was curious about this homer.

I mean I do 1 gallon BIAB. and I kicked around a few ideas. First was the idea of doing the AG batch with a full size mash and lauter but boiling only half (obviously accounting for that in boil off) but figured the math would be really tough and then I'd still need a 10 gallon cooler and would probably need to buy a 10 gallon pot anyway to hold all the wort. SO I figured it wouldn't be worth it.

But how would it work with dilluting it. Let's take this NB Black IPA Recipe

11 lbs 8 oz 2 Row
1 lb dextrose
8 oz crystal 80
6 oz chocolate malt
6 oz carafa III
1 oz Summit 60 Min
1 0z Chinook 30 min
1 oz centennial 10 min
1 oz cascade 5 Min
1 oz centennial 0 min
1 oz cascade dry hop

So for this would I just put the grains in a sack and how much water would I need? Would my 5 gallon kettle work or would I need more? I already have a 5 gallon paint strainer bag, would that be big enough?

 

[NewJersey]

yeah, im with you, OP
i did partial a partial mash sierra nevada clone at the lhbs store as my first ever brew. it was also dry hopped with real hops, but it just wasnt as good as the all grains ive done.twang and such
my thing with the kits is just why even bother with a kit? jusy go to the store and buy beer already. if you wanna really make beer, then get some grains, crush em, and make beer.

 

[unionrdr]

^^This is what the arguing is all about. It's all beer regardless of brewing method. But my own recipes with a couple different extracts & hops is pretty darn good. Partial mash is fun with so many possibilities betwen grains & all the extracts available nowadays.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

BiaB is a great method ! But just storing that amount of grain would be a hassle for me. I can store the extract and steaping grains,yeast in my kegorator. Enough for two batches. As it is now im trying to figure out a way to brew on my bench in the man cave and get out of the kitchen.

BIAB takes up next to no space. The concept is similar to steeping one huge cup of tea. I brew in my garage so I need to be able to have room for the cars. I would def start messing with BIAB AG. I have perfected my process so for now, I am fine with this method. It doesnt take that long at all. My entire rig (aside from carboys\grain in the basement) consist of grinder, burner, pot, chiller, folding table, chair, rubber maid container with all my tools. Thats not really that much. You can do everything outside, which is awesome when the weather is nice. I like AG too for the $$$. I also like being able to mash at different temps to get different mouthfeel, sweetness.

 

[NanoMan]

Extract is no different than grain (or grapes, for that matter, if you're making wine) when it comes to knowing your source. There is significant product variability. I am an all grain brewer for the most part, however occassionally an event or a production issue warrants extract. You can turn out very decent extract beers if you have quality extract and also pay attention to water chemistry and pH (which is NEVER discussed with extracts). I have found consistent high quality with the Briess extract products.

Cheers!

 

[BxBrewer]

yeah, im with you, OP
i did partial a partial mash sierra nevada clone at the lhbs store as my first ever brew. it was also dry hopped with real hops, but it just wasnt as good as the all grains ive done.twang and such
my thing with the kits is just why even bother with a kit? jusy go to the store and buy beer already. if you wanna really make beer, then get some grains, crush em, and make beer.

Here in NYC is just like Canada "where the OP is from". Your not going to just go to the local corner store and get craft beer. When you do find it and its $20 for 4 12oz beers. You get the idea.

Why do people with three keggle brew magic type systems go back to doing full boil extract batches ?

 

[BxBrewer]

Extract is no different than grain (or grapes, for that matter, if you're making wine) when it comes to knowing your source. There is significant product variability. I am an all grain brewer for the most part, however occassionally an event or a production issue warrants extract. You can turn out very decent extract beers if you have quality extract and also pay attention to water chemistry and pH (which is NEVER discussed with extracts). I have found consistent high quality with the Briess extract products.

Cheers!

I urge you to give MoorBeers extract a shot. I liked Briess, but moorbeers is the best ive tried.

 

[highgravitybacon]

I urge you to give MoorBeers extract a shot. I liked Briess, but moorbeers is the best ive tried.

I imagine these rather ruddy people of North Africa, salt of the earth types, with a fierce fighting spirit, could make a solid extract.

And if it wasn't too good, who would stand in their way? Not Spain or Italy.

 

[BlackRock]

I've only done extract, but I've never done one of the "Pre-canned" kits. I think that's the issue. Even all the beer books talk about the kits and how the yeast, hops and malt can be old.

I'd say you should build your own extract recipe using better ingredients just like you'd do with your AG batches. Just replace the 2-row with some LME and DME. I don't discount that your AG batches come out better with more profile, it just seems a bit one sided when rant over a crappy extract kit and lump that into saying all extract brew is crap.

I've made a dozen batches all from extract and haven't had a bad batch yet. Now, having said that I'm in the process of moving to AG and will probably never go back to spending and arm and a leg for LME, but I really think it's incorrect to generalize all extract brew as being crap.

 

[GrogNerd]

I imagine these rather ruddy people of North Africa, salt of the earth types, with a fierce fighting spirit, could make a solid extract.

And if it wasn't too good, who would stand in their way? Not Spain or Italy.

but alcohol is against their religion

 

[bcvlj]

The canned hopped LME is usually old. If you want good LME, try Midwest Supplies. They have excellent kits to try. I have not had any poor extract or AG beers frame them

 

[unionrdr]

Or if you like Cooper's or wanna use a can in a PM batch like me,then try these guys. always fresh Cooper's stuff ime; http://us.diybeer.com/
Also,NB & midwest carry the large 15g Cooper's ale yeast packets. Always really fresh dates on'em. High flocculation & like stemps down to 64F. The stuff can be a beast. And the fruity esters from higher temps are to style for English & Australian ales. Treat the yeast right & it'll do a great job for you. I don't give a ratt's a$$ who makes it. I've gotten good beers from them & other's yeasts. I've also gotten so so-so ones. It's all on me to do MY job right so they can do there's. It really is that simple.

 

[highgravitybacon]

but alcohol is against their religion

Apparently they invented sherry.
http://www.kortexplores.com/node/190

I promise this is the last off topic post from me on this thread.

--

Edit, I'll add my bits. I quickly gave up on extract. It just doesn't work for me. I always was disappointed in the results. It always seemed like a compromise on flavor vs. convenience. This coming from someone who heats 98% of my food in a microwave.

Once I just spent the $25 and made a ghetto mash tun, I was much happier. However, a good friend of mine makes some pretty solid extract brews from the Northern Brewer kits. So I'm not going to poo poo the idea for others, just for me.

I have a massive 50lb sack of extract that I bought which is now devoted to yeast starters.

 

[LTownLiquorPig]

Never made a batch of Cooper's IPA or Stout I didn't enjoy. Never made the IPA with anything other than brew enhancer and weak-ass hop tea; but I guess I did use Nottingham instead of the kit yeast.

Never thought I'd move beyond Cooper's kits, because they were all I could get locally and shipping here is cost prohibitive (so is any commercial beer, fwiw). Then a HBS with actual grains and yeasts opened up a 35 minute drive from home and I'm two biab batches into my all grain career.