A case against kegging - Bottling is better

[Edcculus]

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Sorry. I'm outta here.

dude, thats low....

You actually mention this in 2 other threads. You just throw it in casually like everyone already knows "you loose a lot of flavor when you keg".

Most of my friends say I can compete with a commercial brewery and I mini mash AND bottle my beer. Kegging is nice but you lose a lot of flavor kegging. There is just noway you can get that fantastic taste of cask ale from a keg.

+1 what babalu87 says!

It's all about taste. I don't keg because bottled beer tastes MUCH better then kegged beer. Aged stout tastes much better then fresh stout.

Aside from the whole thing about some keggers rushing beer, what do kegging vs bottling and aging beer have to do with eachother?


Don't make it out like you are the victim here. You came in and made some wide sweeping claims that werent true. Revising the OP was the right thing to do, since you state them as fact, not questions to debate.

I actually remembered something that the brewer at Thomas Creek in Greenville SC used to tell me. He claimed he could taste the difference in bottle conditioned beer vs force carbed. He said bottle conditioning left a harsh taste to the beer, especially when you use corn sugar. I call complete BS, but never really called him out on it. Explain that.

 

[McKBrew]

McKBrew - what are you talking about ???? I think I mentioned it ONCE BEFORE this thread started - are you stalking me?

No reason to, for some reason I have inadvertantly stumbled on at least two other threads where you mention this. Believe me, I wish I could avoid it.

remilard - I have enough blind testing so know what is good and what is bad.

So - since the bullies have taken over this thread with the purpose to somehow put me in my place.

Have fun.

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Sorry. I'm outta here.

................

 

[Grinder12000]

yea - I'm sinking into the darkness with the rest - almost losing my sense of humor.

 

[buzzkill]

just go get a keg, keg your beer,then see if its the kegging..

 

[DKershner]

I actually remembered something that the brewer at Thomas Creek in Greenville SC used to tell me. He claimed he could taste the difference in bottle conditioned beer vs force carbed. He said bottle conditioning left a harsh taste to the beer, especially when you use corn sugar. I call complete BS, but never really called him out on it. Explain that.

I often think this when I cook, brew beer, even eat desserts: "I wish I could borrow your taste buds to figure out what the **** you are talking about."

But hey, everyone is different.

To the topic, I actually find that it seems bottle conditioning tastes the same, but is just less accurate. Matt and I split a 10gal batch of Dunkelweizen, he bottle carbed, i forced, both were very good, his was slightly less carbed than mine. At the end of the keg, I burped mine, let it sit, then tasted it side by side. Literally no difference, I actually forgot which was which mid-tasting.

For the record, mine seemed originally about 2.7 volumes (based off of a bottle of Paulaner and Franziskaner). His seemed around 2.4. We are at 4000ft, so force carbing is a learning process, the Dunkel was carbed at 20psi. :cross:

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

So, the OP has never kegged...

Yet, he feels he can pass judgement on ALL brewers who keg?

Frankly, I feel brewers who bottle have too much time on their hands, can't handle the subtle complexity of kegging and suffer from keg-envy.

And, I actually have bottled...

 

[jacksonbrown]

I can only speak for myself and my methods, which is kegging under forced carbonation. It's possible that what you're noticing is simply haste on the part of many brewers. I do 10 gal batches but will often bottle 6-12 brews for handing out to friends, aging, whatever, before kegging. So they're naturally carbonated. And I can say with a lot of certainty that there is very little difference between the two. In fact I've had brews that were lacking in bottle but great off the tap (notably a rye ipa that really lost something in the bottle).
My method includes a primary for 2 weeks, then a secondary for however long I feel neccessary (2 weeks to months on end). Sometimes I'll secondary in the keg without adding CO2 (other than to purge to oxygen). But when I do carb I'll sit it for about two weeks. I don't keg my beer so I can drink it right away, which might be the flaw you've come across. I do, however, keg for convenience. Man, is it easier than bottling!
So, Grinder, I think you're wrong. And above is my reason why.

 

[WIP]

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Wow, I was on your side (devils advocate) until you said that. Some chose to support the forum financially, some try to give advise, some do both, some have other ways. If only the people that supported financially could post, this forum would go down the tubes. There probably wouldn't be as many supporting members as there are now, because they wouldn't have joined in the first place. Anyhoo, you are now considered a pompus jerk in my book.

 

[DKershner]

Wow, I was on your side (devils advocate) until you said that. Some chose to support the forum financially, some try to give advise, some do both, some have other ways. If only the people that supported financially could post, this forum would go down the tubes. There probably wouldn't be as many supporting members as there are now, because they wouldn't have joined in the first place. Anyhoo, you are now considered a pompus jerk in my book.

I actually didn't become a premium supporter because I thought the site could make more than $25/yr off me in ads because I was a frequent visitor...didn't realize I could do both.

In any case, calling out someone for not spending money on a luxury good is pretty out of bounds. +1

 

[flyerwire]

i still rush beers to tap when i have piss poor planning and run out and after an extra few weeks it definitely does make a difference... any taste you are commenting on between bottling and kegging is probably attributed to the ease of serving green beer, as many have said in this thread...

and to another poster who mentioned brewing with friends... i have, and most have resulted in a mistake here or there... if i brew with a friend who also brews it cuts quite a bit of time out of the process and is more enjoyable.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

Bottle conditioned beer does taste different than kegged beer, for obvious reasons. You add bottling sugar, you add a warm conditioning period, and introduce a small amount of yeast byproduct including alcohol. How could you solve this difference? Well, if you go to Sierra Nevada, they have two Pale Ales on tap. WTF? One is the recipe that goes in bottles, one is for kegs. They mod the recipe a bit so that the kegged recipe tastes like the bottled recipe to achieve a consistent flavor whether you get a 12-pack or a keg. Now if you stand them up side by side and do a blind taste, it's almost impossible to tell them apart. With practice you can identify the difference, but it's so small as to be insignificant IMHO.

For my experience, when I keg a beer I will start tasting it after 2 days @ 30psi. It tastes thin, and lacks complexity and cohesiveness. The flavors are competing rather than blending. It's basically a green beer. After 2 days, I drop the pressure to 12psi for serving. After one week I taste again. It's a bit better, but still usually is a bit on the green side. Depending on the beer, 3-4 weeks is when the beers are properly carbonated and blended. Flavors emerge that were hidden before, harsh carbonic bite and astringent hop bites have mellowed, etc.

For any method of packaging your beer, you must let it age properly. This varies from recipe to recipe, and even from batch to batch. The only way to tell is to wait 2-4 weeks, and taste one every few days. My wheat beers only need 1-1.5 weeks, but they are light on hops and malt. Pale Ales and IPA's take about 3 weeks to really balance out due to high amounts of bittering hops. My stout doesn't really get fantastic for 2 months due to the whole heap of roasted malts that I use. Bottling, casking, kegging are just different methods to acheive the same result. There is no right or wrong way, and all of them have their pros and cons. Don't be a close-minded fool and think your way is best...especially if you've never tried the other way.

 

[Grinder12000]

dkershner - just venting from being cornered - nothing personal. Hey - I let my support slip for a few months

 

[DKershner]

dkershner - just venting from being cornered - nothing personal. Hey - I let my support slip for a few months

There is no reason to feel cornered, just realize that you are walking into a world full of very-informed beer keggers and bottlers when you express opinions. If you combat them, they will argue back.

Everyone has disagreements and misunderstandings on this forum (or at least I do). I would hope that these would only strengthen people's view of me as it has strengthened my view of them and their opinion.

It is really OK to be wrong, although in this case we haven't (and won't) really prove anything other than the difference is VERY insignificant and imperceptible (to most) between natural and force carbonation.

 

[WIP]

I also think it depends on the beer.

 

[wetherel]

I prefer bottling to kegging for low cost variety and portability to bottle sharings/swapping. For every flavor of beer I want to have available, I have to spend $25 for a keg, or $0 for recycled bottles. I also brew 2-3 gallon batches for variety. I get bored drinking the same 5 gallons beer out of a keg for 1-2 months, especially if the beer is not great. Maybe I just need more friends.

 

[Picobrew]

From my experience, it doesn't really matter how you package the beer, as long as you add at least one oat to each package.

That being said, I keg and bottle condition, and I also bottle from the keg. Sometimes I choose kegging over bottling because I want a long cold conditioning and it clears the beer up beautifully before I bottle it. Other than that, it comes down to whether I want it on tap or I want to be able spread bottle love around. there are too many variables at play for me to be able to objectively compare the "quality" of kegged and bottle conditioned beers.

Back to some of your original points, I think it is a lot easier to screw up AG, so that might account for some of your experience with "low quality" AG. I don't think it has anything to do with AG itself.

 

[DKershner]

Well, if you go to Sierra Nevada, they have two Pale Ales on tap. WTF?

I was thinking about this...

We know corn sugar dries out a beer. Do you think they just up their mash temp by one degree or add some carapils to even this effect out?

But then again, SNPA isn't bottle carbed...is it? So that would literally be a taste difference just from packaging in 12oz bottles.

 

[flyerwire]

I prefer bottling to kegging for low cost variety and portability to bottle sharings/swapping. For every flavor of beer I want to have available, I have to spend $25 for a keg, or $0 for recycled bottles. I also brew 2-3 gallon batches for variety. I get bored drinking the same 5 gallons beer out of a keg for 1-2 months, especially if the beer is not great. Maybe I just need more friends.

i bottle a handful of beers out of each keg if i think its any good and i'd want to share or enter into comp's. You need more people to help you drink beer!!

 

[Picobrew]

I was thinking about this...

We know corn sugar dries out a beer. Do you think they just up their mash temp by one degree or add some carapils to even this effect out?

But then again, SNPA isn't bottle carbed...is it? So that would literally be a taste difference just from packaging in 12oz bottles.

SNV has two recipes, they aren't just subtle differences. The SNV Draft that is at the brewery is maltier, more like Mirror Pond.

 

[motobrewer]

SNPA is bottle conditioned.

I'm just glad all my favorite micro's use DME to brew. Otherwise I'd be drinking some really crappy beer. no wonder i'm paying $10.99 / sixer.....

 

[carnevoodoo]

I was thinking about this...

We know corn sugar dries out a beer. Do you think they just up their mash temp by one degree or add some carapils to even this effect out?

But then again, SNPA isn't bottle carbed...is it? So that would literally be a taste difference just from packaging in 12oz bottles.

Sierra Nevada is bottle conditioned. #1 on the FAQ.

http://www.sierranevada.com/faqs_ales.asp

And again, corn sugar in the amount needed to bottle condition isn't going to dry anything out. It adds carbonation. It doesn't really change the profile.

As for the rest of the conversation, I'm just laughing reading it. There's a lot of bad information on this forum, and I can't believe how it continues to propagate. OP, you're just wrong. It is ok that you feel cornered or whatever, but you need to let this one go. It is ok to admit you're wrong on occasion.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Oh come on fellas, you haven't really insulted anyone's sensebilities unless YURI steps in and shuts your thread down.......

 

[carnevoodoo]

Oh come on fellas, you haven't really insulted anyone's sensebilities unless YURI steps in and shuts your thread down.......

For real. I have had like 4 of my last 15 posts deleted. I'm on some kind of streak.

 

[beerthirty]

Thank you Bobby, I agree with you. Most kegged beers are served at either the wrong volumes or premature.

I used to stay away from extract beer becuase I had found that they made the skin in my mouth peel. Yah that would make anyone stay away from it. wild gave me some extract beer that was to die for. Thank you wild, one of the best beers I have ever enjoyed was your smoked bourbon porter(skin intact). This showed me something about extract that I had already learned from AG. Never hurry a work of art. His beer was 1 1/2 years old(kegged). Most keggers keg to get it out faster, I keg cause it is easier than bottling(lazy). The beer will sit in my keg for at least as long as in your bottle. I think what you are noticing is lack of proper conditioning. After all it was Bud that gave us the Moron date(Born on date).

 

[DKershner]

SNV has two recipes, they aren't just subtle differences. The SNV Draft that is at the brewery is maltier, more like Mirror Pond.

That makes more sense. Can't say I have ever had them side by side...

 

[remilard]

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

I was for a year, I didn't feel the additional forums and PM space was worth anywhere close to $25. While I support charities, this site isn't going to be one of them.

Now if I were allowed to actually directly insult people with a paying membership (and I wasn't) I would go for the lifetime. Maybe they can make a special ban proof membership category for me at $100 a year.

 

[DKershner]

Sierra Nevada is bottle conditioned. #1 on the FAQ.

It is ok to admit you're wrong on occasion.

I was wrong, I admit it.

I knew some breweries adjusted their beer for a keg, but I thought it was usually in the way of less carbonation...

 

[BierMuncher]

I like kegging and force carbing. Suits me just fine and haven’t had a complaint yet.

On the other hand…a Belgian Dubbel deserves bottle conditioning.

 

[Denny]

There is no reason to feel cornered, just realize that you are walking into a world full of very-informed beer keggers and bottlers when you express opinions. If you combat them, they will argue back.

And that's all I see...opinion. And he's certainly entitled to his opinion. The issue I see is that it's stated as fact when he's done no experimentation to back it up.

 

[Denny]

I was thinking about this...

We know corn sugar dries out a beer. Do you think they just up their mash temp by one degree or add some carapils to even this effect out?

But then again, SNPA isn't bottle carbed...is it? So that would literally be a taste difference just from packaging in 12oz bottles.

If the amount of sugar used to prime a beer changes the taste, I'll eat my keg!