A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[Tribe Fan]

This is a fantastic thread. I am fighting really hard well water, 402 HCO3 and 331 CaCO3 that is taxing my RO system, but that is a separate thread.

I am going to pilot run a 3711 saison using distilled water. 3 gal batch with 5 gal of strike water for full batch BIAB.

Was going to add 3g of calcium chloride (for the ca and cl accents) and 1.5 g of gypsum (for a touch of sulfate to balance the hops).
Grain bill is:
5.5# Vienna
.5# oats
.5# rice
2.5 oz acid malt (2%)

152F mash in temp
Hopped with williamettes to 23 IBU

Shooting for a crisp, dry clean beer (rice) and using oats for mouthfeel. But also set a baseline for mash ph and what this yeast profile is really like.

Am I getting this right?

Edit: So I mashed this and 20 min in my mash ph was 5.2. Nice.

Edit 2: Wow. My mash efficiency shot up 10 points higher than it's ever been with this setup to 85%. I'm a believer.

 

[Tribe Fan]

.....

 

[Andre3000]

What are the necessary mineral additions for RO or distilled water for successful fermentation / taste, regardless of style?

I just brewed my first batch with 100% RO water (the RO system I used is quite good I believe, at over 99% rejection rate), which was pale ale, 8 gallon. I added 9 and 2 g gypsum CaCl respectively, into the mash. The yeast was 1272 pitched from a decanted starter made from my moderately hard tap water. Ignoring style, was this enough minerals in general for yeast health, process, taste, etc.? I completely managed to forget about yeast nutrient, though it seems fermentation was fine, but it's still too early to know what the final product will taste like.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@Andre3000 , with regard to flavor ions, there is no clear way to look at this from the perspective of "regardless of style".

The two most essential minerals are the two that you added.

For ales and many lagers it is generally recognized that roughly 50 ppm of calcium ions is beneficial from a process perspective, and 100 ppm is generally presumed to be closing in on the upper limit, after which your beer may begin to taste minerally (wherein there are admittedly some some who actually like more minerally tasting beers). Chloride and sulfate are the primary flavor ions. Chloride is added in the hope of accentuating maltiness, and sulfate is added in the hope of accentuating dryness and hoppiness. Sodium ions in moderation can lend smoothness without lending saltiness. Magnesium is not necessary, but if kept below about 20-30 ppm will not likely be noticed. For many beers the range of 40 ppm to 100 ppm is probably good for chloride, though some may go as high as ~125 ppm. Ditto for sulfate, though many beer styles (generally lagers) will taste just fine without any sulfate at all.

A very small amount of zinc is a necessary fermentation nutrient for yeast and some claim that it reduces harshness.

Depending upon its size, and how many gallons of water your pale ale recipe required overall, 9 grams of gypsum could be just fine or it could be quite excessive. Sulfate for specifically pale ales is generally targeted at about 125-150 ppm, though some prefer 200 ppm or a bit higher.

There are no hard and fast rules, and most of this comes down to personal preference.

 

[Andre3000]

A very small amount of zinc is a necessary fermentation nutrient for yeast and some claim that it reduces harshness.

This is essentially what I was getting at, I just saw a thread that talked about zinc, and how it's essential to yeast health and I thought to myself, "I wonder what other essential minerals/additions I'm leaving out with the new RO system".

Does yeast nutrient provide zinc?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Does yeast nutrient provide zinc?[/USER]

Most yeast nutrients do not contain zinc. Servomyces does, but it is pricey.
.

 

[BeerSavesLives]

I'm having an issue with this one.
I have been making a recipe for my first all-grain with BeerSmith.

Grain bill
6# Maris Otter
3# 6 Row
1.5# Crystal 60L
1# Flaked Oats
12oz Chocolate
8 oz Roasted Barley
12# 12oz Total

Mash Vol: 4.08 Gal Sparge Vol: 4.27 Gal

BeerSmith is giving me a an Unadjusted Mash pH of 5.44, which is nice (I think haha). 5.36 Mash pH after the Calcium Chloride addition mentioned in the post.

However, Bru'n Water, which I've been reading is more accurate in general, is giving me a crazy low unadjusted Mash pH of 4.91. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong or what there is such a large disparity. I have ensured my unit is set to gallons. My grain bill is correct. My water volumes are correct. And I have dilution set to 100% distilled. I can't figure out how to make it add Calcium Chloride only to the mash without it also suggesting it in the sparge but even so, if I'm starting at 4.91, adding that is just going to drop me further.

So my question is, do I go with bru'n and just boost up my water from the get go to combat the low mash pH. Or do I just go with this post's suggestion and hope that Bru'n is wrong?

Thank you for your time and help! =)

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Wouldnt you be more interested in knowing the predicted mash pH value based on recommended additions instead?

 

[BeerSavesLives]

I mean, yes I would. However, with the giant disparity between the two calculations based on the same criteria, which program do I go off of? If I were to go off of recommended additions according to the program (which is the recommendations I assume you're talking about, and not the recommendations in the original post of this thread) BeerSmith would require small corrections to get a specific profile only as the pH is fine. Whereas, Bru'n water would require me to add some pickling lime or baking soda to boost my pH. Either way, I have to pick one and go with it. I was just wondering if someone had some insight as to why one is predicting way low while the other is predicting within a good range and how to deal with it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You didn't specify your calcium chloride addition quantity, but for a moderate CaCl2 addition, I'm going to call this one as mashing at ~5.2 pH. I can't imagine it coming in at 4.91 pH. I'd believe 5.36 before I'd believe 4.91.

At ~5.2 mash pH you shouldn't necessarily need to do any pH related treatment, unless you specifically desire the mash pH to be a bit higher intentionally.

PS: I'm willing to guess that up to 95+% of mash pH software assistant users don't check their mash pH because they (just as for you) have read that 'software product XXX' is always right under all circumstances. And then they go on to further perpetuate the myth since, hey, this is the internet, and whatever they say and we subsequently read on it is 100% guaranteed to be right. And as for those who do pH check, many take readings too early, say at 10-15 minutes into the mash (instead of the more appropriate 30 to 60 minute mark), and I believe that reading early often results in false low mash pH readings. Or worse yet, they use inadequate $10 class pH meters, or heaven forbid, pH paper. Or they apply a healthy dose of "confirmation bias".

PPS: Mineral additions to sparge water will not lower mash pH, since the mash is completed by that juncture.

 

[BeerSavesLives]

The calcium chloride addition is simply what the original post in this thread said to get a base line, 1 tsp. Didn't add the saur as that's what it said for dark beers. As I said in my first post, this will be my first all-grain so water is not something I previously had to really worry about. I've been reading a bit to at least give myself some base knowledge. I have seen a lot of people in these forums suggest that Bru'n Water is the best calculator as it has very low margins of error when they actually take their pH readings. I, as you have said, have a hard time believing that my mash pH would drop down so low especially since my grain bill is not heavy on the roast grain side (from my short readings I believe that roasts add more acidity).

I don't want to completely rely on these calculator programs I was just hoping to get at least a jumping off point or general ballpark as the process of changing pH during a mash seems a little daunting. Check within 10-15 mins like you stated, and then try to correct it from there. But by the time you've made additions and check the ph level again half of the mash is over for a single step mash. I just don't want to spend all of the money and have my first beer turn into garbage because I wasn't prepared you know?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

What color in Lovibond are you entering for the Roasted Barley and the Chocolate malt? Knowing that would be helpful.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There is no use trying to check what will almost inevitably be an incorrect pH early on (at ~10-15 minutes in) and then trying to correct the pH from there. The mash is most likely nearly done (if not fully done) by about 20 minutes, and almost certainly (except for recipes with borderline diastatic enzyme power) done at 30 minutes (thus the sound reason to check for a valid mash pH only at or post 30 minutes). If the mash is done by the time you get the 10 minute sample cooled to room temperature and get a "stable" pH reading (which may require leaving the pH probe in the sample for a few minutes) there is no changing what enzymatic action has already taken place within the mash environment of an off kilter pH by post mash adjustment of the pH. And at the 10 minute mark you will have no means of knowing if your samples pH is truly off kilter or not, but odd are good that it will be. So as a consequence if your 10 minute pH reading is wrong, how can that become a reliable baseline for correction? You have to know where you are at in order to get where you want to be. Best to learn something "valid" by sampling mash pH much later, and save the adjustment for the next batch, where it can properly be done up front, and not via chasing a still moving target.

The irony in this is that if BW consistently tosses up lower than mainstream pH readings and false low pH readings are very likely the inherent outcome of sampling at 10 minutes, lo and behold, BW may come closer than the other software solutions. But closer to a likely false pH doesn't necessarily win the reality race, only the illogical "Hey, I always check at 10 minutes, and at 10 minutes BW is closer than all of the others (which all read higher), so that makes BW correct and all of the others junk" race.

For example, my last robust stout (more robust than yours) measured a stable 5.14 pH at 30 minutes, and a stable 5.22 mash pH at 60 minutes into the mash. Extending this backwards it very well may have come in at or below 5 pH at the 10 minute mark. But if I had reacted to a 5 pH at 10 minutes and tossed in a ton of baking soda, by 60 minutes it would potentially be above 5.6 pH and out of the mash pH ballpark on the high side.

 

[cheesebach]

PS: I'm willing to guess that up to 95+% of mash pH software assistant users don't check their mash pH because they (just as for you) have read that 'software product XXX' is always right under all circumstances. And then they go on to further perpetuate the myth since, hey, this is the internet, and whatever they say and we subsequently read on it is 100% guaranteed to be right. And as for those who do pH check, many take readings too early, say at 10-15 minutes into the mash (instead of the more appropriate 30 to 60 minute mark), and I believe that reading early often results in false low mash pH readings. Or worse yet, they use inadequate $10 class pH meters, or heaven forbid, pH paper. Or they apply a healthy dose of "confirmation bias".

I'll admit that I'm in the camp who takes the pH reading at 10-15 minutes into the mash. Why do I do this? Because someone on the interwebs once told me that the first 15 minutes of the mash is where most of the conversion happens. So I figure that's the most critical time for the pH to be in the target range. Plus, I can feel like I may have "saved it" if it is more than +/- 0.10 off from my target pH and I quickly add some additional acid or pickling lime to bring it back to target. (Yes, it can and does happen in my experience that mash pH is off by 0.10 or more from what Bru'n Water or other tools predict, despite what the forums sometimes say).

So my question then, is whether there is some reason that the pH reading at the end of the mash is more or less important than the pH at 10-15 minutes in? To put it another way, if my target pH is 5.40 the first time I'm trying a recipe and I get 5.45 at 10 minutes in and 5.50 at the end of the mash, which number should I be using to adjust my water to be closer to 5.40 the next time I brew that recipe?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I and others have come to the conclusion that 30 minutes is the 'sweet spot' for mash pH readings for all combination of mashed grains. This topic was covered here in great depth and detail last month as being generally the best time. In the hope of standardizing the way, we record and report mash pH measurements.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@cheesebach, I was adding the last 2 paragraphs to my post above while you were typing your post above screwy's. Go back and read the added last paragraph in particular please.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Another way to look at this is that until the mash pH is stable, which can only logically happen after mashing is assured to be complete, what is present as pH within the liquid wort phase is not necessarily reflective of what is going on at the pH level inside the cracked kernels, which is the region in which the still active enzymatic starch to sugar saccharification is actually taking place.

Thus my vote is for the 60 minute sample to be the most likely to be a reliable reflection of the mash pH environment.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The real question to be answered here is of course: Will this recipe mash at pH of 4.91 to begin with, and as such, should a ton of baking soda be pre-mixed into the mash water in advance (where it can be most efficacious to the peak of enzyme activity)?

4.91 pH must call for some serious baking soda grams, and I have my doubts about it. A little yes, but a lot, no.

 

[urg8rb8]

The real question to be answered here is of course: Will this recipe mash at pH of 4.91 to begin with, and as such, should a ton of baking soda be pre-mixed into the mash water in advance (where it can be most efficacious to the peak of enzyme activity)?

4.91 pH must call for some serious baking soda, and I have my doubts about it.

And if a serious amount of baking soda make the beer taste too salty?

 

[mabrungard]

And if a serious amount of baking soda make the beer taste too salty?

That particular recipe does include a substantial percentage of crystal and roast and I wouldn't be too surprised if the pH could fall that low without sufficient alkalinity in the mashing water. The good thing is that alkalinity is only needed in your mashing water and the amount of alkalyzing mineral that you're adding is diluted by the sparging water addition. In the case of baking soda, the resulting sodium content is far lower than what is needed to make your beer taste 'salty'.

This reminds me of a scare tactic that some use to get brewers to avoid adding baking soda. If you add a teaspoon of baking soda to a glass of water and taste it...it will taste salty and terrible. That's what happens when you produce a solution with 100's of ppm of sodium. However if you were to dose a glass of water with the proper amount of baking soda to produce the needed mashing alkalinity, you probably wouldn't taste much of anything. Concentration does make a difference.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

It’s a good practice to taste your brewing water before using it. I’m not sure if Barley farmers decided to brew beer because they loved their local water. But I am in the habit of tasting my brewing water before mashing in. I’ve never once noticed a salty taste even when including lots of salts and minerals.

 

[BeerSavesLives]

Ok, after reading all of your posts I'm gettting a better understanding of what the objective of the pH reading in the mash is. To answer the question of lovibonds, 60 for crystal 60L, 350 for chocolate, and 300 for roasted barley. Those are my inputs.

So if I just throw in a small amount of baking soda to boost up the pH a bit, and let the pH naturally rise throughout the mash, and just take my reading at 30 or 60, and record that for future use, will my beer be completely ruined if it hasn't at least hit recommended pH levels? Is there any way I can salvage it at that point? Longer mash maybe? Would pickling lime be a better addition?

Also, as Martin has pointed out, my recipe has a lot of crystal/roast grains. I am just going off of flavors that I want to get in the finished product based off of a couple homebrewing books, so the appropriate amount of roasts and crystals in an all-grain recipe is kind of lost on me. Should I tweak the recipe a bit and still get the same flavor from the crystal and roast grains? How much is adequate to impart flavor? (Also, I see you're in Carmel. Westfield here, cheers!)

I really appreciate all of the help here everyone, so much wisdom. I want to soak it all in.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Some interesting reading on the impact of mashing at extreme pH values:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/30/wa...he-impact-of-low-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2017/07/24/wa...e-impact-of-high-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/

 

[BeerSavesLives]

Some interesting reading on the impact of mashing at extreme pH values:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/30/wa...he-impact-of-low-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2017/07/24/wa...e-impact-of-high-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/

Really great reads! Thank you for this. I'm very anal retentive, my gf gets mad when she tries to cook with me cause I'm always following every recipe to the tee. I know, that to an extent and in theory that this helps to produce the same beer consistently, but I also know that I shouldn't sweat over the little things. This helps to calm my nerves. Once I get a better grasp on the whole process and look more into the science rather than just the process I will worry about it, but these brulosophy experiments have made me feel like I can kind of just roll with the punches and still get decent beer at the same time that I make notes for future improvements.

Thank you for all of your help!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If it was to mash at 4.91 pH my initial calculation rounds to a requirement for 8.1 to 9.9 grams of baking soda.

If it was to mash at 5.20 pH my initial calculation rounds to a requirement for 3.25 to 5 grams of baking soda.

If it was to mash at 5.36 pH my initial calculation rounds to a requirement for 0.65 to 2.35 grams of baking soda.

These estimates are for a target mash pH span of 5.40 to 5.50.

How much baking soda is your software calling for in order to hit either 5.40 or 5.50 pH on the nose, for the case of mashing at 4.91 pH?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If it was me, I would add 4 grams of baking soda to the mash water, mash, take a late mash pH sample (60 min.) or two (30 and 60 min.), carefully measure their room temperature pH after calibrating my pH meter, and take notes for the next time this recipe is repeated. Calibrate the meter, gently swirl the meter in the room temperature samples, then let it sit still in the sample for up to a few minutes until you see no further movement (generally upward in my experience) of the pH, and call this the stable mash pH for your sample.

I not only think that most people take their sample pH's too early, but that they are often rather in a hurry and thereby impatiently read them at temperatures somewhat hotter than they should, or they are at this juncture particularly nervous or agitated, and they therefore want to get a fast pH reading, thereby either reading while swirling, or forgetting to let the pH meter probe sit undisturbed for a few minutes in the sample to allow the reading to fully stabilize. All of these bad practices will lead to lower than actual pH readings. All of them are more likely than not the norm.

Many even make the quite egregious mistake of presuming that since their meter has automatic temperature correction, waiting for a 68 degree F. sample is completely unnecessary. Yet another false low pH reading.

Some calibrate hours to days (or more) before reading their samples pH. Calibrating a few hours in advance "might" work for the best of the available pH meters, but it will not work (as in retain its calibration stability) for most economy driven pH meters. No way will any pH meter hold a precise, reliable, and trustworthy calibration over a period of a few to many days.

Many have massive cases of mash pH assistant software induced "confirmation bias", and when they see the highly biased pH of their pre-choosing (via the software) magically appear (or even if they don't see it appear), that "snapshot" instantly satisfies them and gets recorded, whether too hot, or swirling, or uncalibrated, or unstable, simply made up, etc... Often this is powerful bias induced by a feeling that the software is somehow mystically or magically far superior to what their pH meter would honestly tell them if they did things correctly and accepted its honest output. This due to internet brainwashing by repeatedly hearing over and over again that the software being used is incapable of error.

All of this makes it quite suspect when trying to seriously believe that average Joe or Jane actually took a competently valid pH reading. All he/she reports on the internet for our consumption is some mystical achieved mash pH number (which quite often magically matches quite well with a software prediction). No indication at all as to the "honest" confidence of its validity (generally due to having no clue as to what constitutes confident and/or competent honest validity).

 

[BeerSavesLives]

In order to hit 5.4 pH according to Bru'n Water, I would need to add 4.9 grams of baking soda. That comes out to 1.19 grams per gallon. Doesn't sound too crazy to me, not ideal, but then again I'm no expert. I will definitely take this advice when I brew this beer and record what happens in my notes.

I appreciate the insight

 

[balrog]

^ +1, re: measurement. Frankly, working on brewing procedure, oft encouraged when learning this hobby, fails to effectively stress how important it is to work just as hard on measurement procedure. Confirmation bias is insidious and real. I'm convinced of that.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In order to hit 5.4 pH according to Bru'n Water, I would need to add 4.9 grams of baking soda. That comes out to 1.19 grams per gallon. Doesn't sound too crazy to me, not ideal, but then again I'm no expert. I will definitely take this advice when I brew this beer and record what happens in my notes.

I appreciate the insight

This is odd in light of starting out with an extremely low 4.91 mash pH. There may be internal inconsistencies in the software. I'm not sure that 4.9 grams of baking soda can actually move a 12.5 Lb. grist with a TSP of added calcium chloride in 4.08 gallons of initially distilled water from an initial mash pH of 4.91 to a final mash pH of 5.40. We need @ajdelange to tell us if 4.9 grams of baking soda is capable of achieving this. The irony is that the advice to add 4.9 grams of baking soda alone doesn't sound (to me at least) like bad advice at all, but the inconsistency appears to lie in the assessment of an initial 4.91 mash pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@ScrewyBrewer, what pH do you see @BeerSavesLives recipe mashing at?