Yooper said:
Whoa! Simultaneously posting. And opposite advice. Go with yooper.
A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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Whoa! Simultaneously posting. And opposite advice. Go with yooper.
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OP
Oh, you could post it here. That works too. :cross:
Yooper said:
Yes it would.
TheCheatOSX
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The Water Panel from NHC 2012 is posted on the "Let's Brew" section of the AHA site under "Homebrewing Seminars". It's a members only resource.
I believe this link will only work if you are logged in. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/audio/2012/1616-26 Water Panel.mp3
I believe this link will only work if you are logged in. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/audio/2012/1616-26 Water Panel.mp3
Huh, I'm not an AHA member, but I can certainly download that file (or at least it prompts me).
I'm not a member and it let me download. I listened last night and recommend it to anyone interested in water. It really highlights that the experts aren't in agreement about the subject. Colin's talk is really interesting but if you follow this thread (as in read it and practice it when brewing) AJ sounds like Galileo at the inquistion - the only scientist (with a pH meter instead of a telescope) in a room full of clergy
Colin's talk is really interesting but if you follow this thread (as in read it and practice it when brewing) AJ sounds like Galileo at the inquistion - the only scientist (with a pH meter instead of a telescope) in a room full of clergy
I didn't listen to this recording, but I listened to the 4 shows of Brew Strong (The Brewing Network) on The Brewing Network (mostly John Palmer talking). I'd have to say I agree. Plus, so many people have demonstrated that strips read low, yet in those shows JZ said they were accurate. Don't get me wrong, in general TBN is a good network.
AJ is also the only one on the panel who didn't sell out and endorse 5.2 stabilizer.
tennesseean_87
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How much sauermalt do you use with this water? Would this be 3%, for soft water?
Have to rely on memory here because I'm away from my brewing records but I think it's 2.5%.
bv805
Member
This is awesome!! made it real simple but some questions... when Im making a pale ale on my 1 bbl system it says to double the calcium chloride so my hot liquor volume is 30 gallons i have extremely alkaline tap water so i dilute 5:1 ro to tap.. i did the math and thats 40.8 g of calcium chloride that seems real high and when i type that in to palmers spread sheet its giving my a chloride of 220 ...am i doing something wrong?
thanks
thanks
The recommendations are per each 5 gallons of brewing water treated. Are you 5 x too high perhaps?
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Hey that's me asking the question at the end about whether or not they recommend treating the sparge water.
40.8 grams of CaCl2 (the anhydride) in 30 gal of DI water ought to give you 230 mg/L chloride. The stuff you buy at the LHBS is probably equivalent to 80% CaCl2 and thus your chloride would be 0.8*230 = 184 mg/L. That's a lot but remember that the double recommendation is for 'very minerally beers'. If you want to brew very minerally beers it would be better to work up to those levels i.e. use the standard recommendation the first time you brew and add increasing amounts on subsequent brews. Or if you want to start at the 'very minerally' level be sure to try at reduced addition rates on a subsequent brew or two.
cutchemist42
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Any suggestion for what you would do for IPAs?
Exactly the same i.e. start at the baseline level and work up.
cutchemist42
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Should an IPA include saurmaiz?
So just to clear up I add the 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate and 2% sauermalz, then more additions for the style Im going for?
Yes.
Cool thanks. Just wanted to be sure.
periwinkle1239
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How about black lagers? I'm planning a schwarzbier and am wondering how I should treat my water assuming I use 100% RO water. Since the recipe contains some caramunich and a small amount of roast malt (carafa), should I really use 3% acid malt? I'm assuming the 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride is still needed.
It should include some form of acid. In the UK they use CRS which is a blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids. In the US that is not, AFAIK, available so you must use another acid. I feel a little funny about recommending sauermalz in a British beer but as it is pretty universally available, easy and safe to handle and measure out and effective I'd say yes, use it.
The caramunich will pull the pH down a little but the carafa not so much (as there isn't much of it). This is a tricky one and thus one where a pH measurement would really be helpful. I'd say, based purely on gut feel, to use 2% sauermalz here assuming that the darker malts will have about the equivalent effect of 1% (i.e. about 0.1 pH).
The calcium chloride is in there not so much to lower pH as it is to provide calcium for other purposes but mainly to be sure there is sufficient chloride so yes, do use it.
I have to put a qualifier on this one. If the water is hardened fairly high in order to provide a high sulfate that many IPA lovers enjoy, then it may not be necessary to include acid or acid malt in the mash. This is due to the effect of depressing the mash water's RA via the high amount of calcium (and magnesium, if used) and its reaction with the malt phytins.
Including acid or acid malt in the mash without having a handle on the other factors involved in establishing mash pH, could be trouble. The Primer works with the modest level of mineralization that AJ recommends, so don't try and extrapolate that recommendation when you bump up the minerals.
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Is there any experience with how pumpkin in the mash affects pH?
I recently made a pumpkin ale and built the water in BruN for an estimated mash pH of 5.5 (though I didn't add anything for the pumpkin in the grain acidification calculator).
The mash pH (measured at ~26*C) ended up being 5.20.
Doing some reading, it appears pumpkin has a pH of ~4.6, so I guess that makes sense that 90oz of pumpkin would drop the pH a bit. Just wondering what anyone else is seeing with pumpkin in the mash.
I recently made a pumpkin ale and built the water in BruN for an estimated mash pH of 5.5 (though I didn't add anything for the pumpkin in the grain acidification calculator).
The mash pH (measured at ~26*C) ended up being 5.20.
Doing some reading, it appears pumpkin has a pH of ~4.6, so I guess that makes sense that 90oz of pumpkin would drop the pH a bit. Just wondering what anyone else is seeing with pumpkin in the mash.
Keep in mind that calcium is relatively ineffectual at reducing pH (relative to acid and relative to the ability of alkalinity to raise it). 100 mg/L calcium will lower knockout pH by 0.12 units (and mash pH by, presumably, a bit less than this). Thus to accomplish the approximately 0.3 pH reduction that is associated with a 3% sauermalz addition would require about 250 mg/L calcium. Also remember that recommendation of 3% in the primer is associated with about 90 mg/L Ca (more than I would use but what many people seem to like).
periwinkle1239
Well-Known Member
I believe there is some validity here. I had a similar experience, did you bake your pumpkin? I only used 60 oz, but I baked it on a cookie sheet at 350 degrees for 1-hour and then used it in the mash. Either way my mash pH was the same as yours (5.2) with the pumpkin brew.
I am curious as to what the finished product will be like - I brewed this a month ago and will be kegging it soon. One thing that was peculiar was that it fermented all the way to 1.010 (OG of 1.055) - I mashed at 154 degrees and so I wasn't expecting such a low FG. For reference, when I mash my IPAs at 150 I usually only end up with FGs between 1.012 to 1.014. But fermentation in general was very odd with this pumpkin brew as it was very active for over a week before it started to settle down. I used harvested Bell's yeast and fermented at 65 degrees.
Thank you AJ, for confirming my point. If a 0.3 unit reduction was your target and you actually reduce it by 0.42 units, you probably wouldn't be happy!
AJ... if mash pH is properly controlled, do the salt additions matter at all with regards to the mash (or any time before it reaches the glass)?
I ask because I'm thinking I might test various salt additions on a single batch, in order to determine what I feel to be optimal for the beer. For instance, I would carefully measure out (with a milligram scale) additions of calcium chloride to the glass, and stir to mix well before drinking. Or if that causes the beer to foam, I could do it in the bottles while priming... Maybe have a dozen bottles, each with different additions, and pour samples for myself and fellow club members.
Of course, this would only make sense if (assuming mash pH is properly controlled), the only thing these salt additions accomplish are DIRECT effects on our perception of taste, mouthfeel, etc. If they also have less direct secondary effects, then adding them after fermentation wouldn't give very useful results (assuming my plan would from then on be to treat the strike and sparge water).
Am I making sense? It just seems like a convenient way to really experiment with salt additions and how they affect the perception of flavor, and to determine (subjectively, of course), what the best ion concentration would be for any given beer.
I ask because I'm thinking I might test various salt additions on a single batch, in order to determine what I feel to be optimal for the beer. For instance, I would carefully measure out (with a milligram scale) additions of calcium chloride to the glass, and stir to mix well before drinking. Or if that causes the beer to foam, I could do it in the bottles while priming... Maybe have a dozen bottles, each with different additions, and pour samples for myself and fellow club members.
Of course, this would only make sense if (assuming mash pH is properly controlled), the only thing these salt additions accomplish are DIRECT effects on our perception of taste, mouthfeel, etc. If they also have less direct secondary effects, then adding them after fermentation wouldn't give very useful results (assuming my plan would from then on be to treat the strike and sparge water).
Am I making sense? It just seems like a convenient way to really experiment with salt additions and how they affect the perception of flavor, and to determine (subjectively, of course), what the best ion concentration would be for any given beer.
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