99 Problems and BIAB is one

[bhowie4]

Hey guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster looking for advice on dialing in my gravity figures brewing with BIAB. I've been extract brewing for 3 years and just started doing AG BIAB batches. I've done three batches so far and all have been pretty lack luster and no where near as good as my extract batches. I think my main problem is I'm not able to hit my OG numbers and am either way under or over. Just trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. A quick breakdown of the last three batches. All three are small 2.5 gallon batches with 60-75 minute mashes stirred every 15 minutes with a 10 minute mash out at 168F:

Batch one:
Simple SMASH IPA made with 7lbs Marris Otter and 1/2oz Centennial hops at 60/25/5. Started with 4.5 gallons strike water with a mash in temp of 154F. Mashed for 75 minutes. Lost 4F over course of the mash. Ended with exactly 2.5 gallons. Fermented at 68-70F for three weeks. OG was 10 points higher then Beersmith predicted (1.080 vs 1.069). FG 1.014. Beer is decent but has a strong alcohol taste. Didn't think it fermented high enough for fusel off flavors so thought it may have been too few hops to make up for the increased gravity?

Batch 2:
Saison made with 4.5lbs Belgian Pilsner, 2lbs White Wheat Malt, 8oz aromatic and 8oz Cara-pils, 1oz EKG hops at 60, 1/2oz Styrian Goldings at 10/5, 1/2oz Bitter Orange Peel at 5. Started with 5 gallons strike water with a mash in temp of 153F. Mashed for 75 minutes. Lost 4F over course of mash. Ended with 3 gallons approximate, 2.75 into fermenter. Fermented 70-74 for two weeks. OG was 5 points higher then expected (1.067 vs. 1.062). FG 1.012. Still has the same strong alcohol taste as batch one. Used a Saison yeast strain so should be high temp tolerant.

Batch 3:
Weissbier made with 3lbs German Wheat Malt, 1.5lbs German Pilsner, 8oz Vienna, 1/4oz Tettnang at 60, 1/4oz Hallertauer at 20/5. Started with 5.25 gallons strike water (had to add 1 quart to bring down mash in temp) with mash in at 153F. Mashed for 60 minutes (trying to bring OG more in line). Lost 6F over course of mash. Ended with 4ish gallons approx, 2.75 into fermenter. Fermented 70-74 for one week, going to give it another week. OG was 7 points LOWER then expected (1.035 vs. 1.042). Gravity of sample taken last night was 1.008. Flavor is thin (expected due to lower mash temp?) and watery, pretty flavorless and awful but going to give it another week.

If you've read this far, thank you. I thought my process seemed solid but it's getting frustrating not being able to have spit out a decent beer yet. Any idea where my issues may lay? Any advice/suggestions/critiques are appreciated.

 

[RM-MN]

First thiing that comes to mind is that every time you open the pot to stir you lose heat. I just stir in the grains really well when I add them and don't open the pot until the mash is over. I typically lose about 1 degree. If you have someone else mill your grain you are more likely to have issues hitting your OG because their mill may not be set the same eery time or be worn so it gives an inconsistant crush.

If you mill your own grain, be aware that wheat and rye have smaller and harder kernels than barley and need to bemilled at a finer settng than barley.

You only need mashout if you are fly sparging so omit this step for your next brew.

I think you are fermenting at too high of a temperature and are getting fusel alcohol along with the higher OG than planned. That will definitely get you a "boozey" beer. Try to get your wort down to the low 60's before you pitch the yeast and keep it there for the first 3-4 days before letting it rise to the low 70's.

BIAB is not your problem although I have come to expect efficiency in the low 80% range and adjust my recipes to accomodate that.

 

[DarthCitra]

Your smash recipe with 7lbs was getting an estimated OG of 1.080 in my software, 75 min mash seems a little long, i go 60mins at most.
And second, your fermentation temps were a little too high, 68-70...should be around 64-66. Remember, fermentation inside carboy is always a few degrees hotter than your ambient temp so, thats where your alcohol taste was coming from.

 

[Tutsbrew]

+1 on ferm temp.

 

[singybrue]

What yeasts are you using? Using starters?

 

[bhowie4]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the quick responses.

-I will start opening the pot less, maybe limit my grav and temp readings to every 30 minutes. To be honest, it was kind of a pain checking every fifteen. I've been okay with my temp loss but less is better.

-I get my grain crushed at my lhbs so it has been consistent every time. I have not been asking for a double crush, only a standard crush.

-Mash out is something I'll be happy to lose. I was kind of thinking that anyway since it was an extra 20-25 minutes for maybe an extra point or two. Any thoughts on sparge vs no sparge?

-temp control is difficult for me. I don't have the room for a fermentation chamber and don't have time to monitor a swamp cooler. I suppose I could just not brew during summer. Disappointing but I'd rather have good beer.

-yeast has been wlp001 for batch one, wlp568 for batch 2 and wlp300 for batch three. I do make starters for bigger beers but did not do so for any of these as I wasn't expecting the OG to be as high as it was.

How are my recipes looking? Could I just be using too much/not enough water?

 

[rlonardo]

It definitely sounds like the watery flavor and low OG for your third batch is attributed to using too much water. If you measure your preboil volume and see that you'll end up with too much wort at the end of your boil, boil longer in order to get rid of some of that water. Just don't start your hop additions until 60 min left in order to keep the same IBUS.

 

[rlonardo]

Plugging all of your recipes into Brewer's Friend, your efficiency is pretty consistent (Batch 1 and 3, 75% dead on, Batch 2 ~72%). I would say definitely concentrate on water volumes. Also as others have said fermentation temps. I use a swamp cooler and just swap out some frozen water bottles 2-3 times per day. Otherwise, stuck to Belgians or other beers which can
Ferment a little higher in the summer!

 

[singybrue]

Double crush your grain as well.

 

[bhowie4]

So, quick follow up question, how long can you let wort sit in an airlock sealed carboy before it's no longer safe to pitch the yeast? I have a wort chiller but ambient temps aren't allowing me to get the temp below 80F. I've just been pitching and letting the temp drop over a 24 hour period. Could i let the wort sit for, say, a day before pitching without having any ill effects?

 

[TimmyWit]

Another thing you could look into is water chemistry. If your extract batches were good but all grain is not, your mash PH might be off. Once you find out what is in your water, you can use something like Bru N Water to help you with water additions. Or you could start with RO and build your water from scratch.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

 

[vNmd]

So, quick follow up question, how long can you let wort sit in an airlock sealed carboy before it's no longer safe to pitch the yeast? I have a wort chiller but ambient temps aren't allowing me to get the temp below 80F. I've just been pitching and letting the temp drop over a 24 hour period. Could i let the wort sit for, say, a day before pitching without having any ill effects?

That is one of the things I do now. I used to be in such a hurry to pitch the yeast, sometimes the temp was too high. Now I seal the buckets like normal before I pitch and put them in the fermenter and set it to what ever temp I would like to pitch at. I come back the next morning or afternoon with the starting temp where I want it and pitch the yeast. As long as everything is correctly sanitized - I haven't had any problems yet.

In the summer months my water going through the wort chiller won't get below 85ish either. I put the kettle on a bag of ice after it gets to 85ish and leave it for a few hours (covered) if I want to pitch the same day. When I come back it is mid 60's, perfect for ale pitching. If its a lager I put it in the bucket for further chilling in the fermenter as mentioned above.

 

[wilserbrewer]

So, quick follow up question, how long can you let wort sit in an airlock sealed carboy before it's no longer safe to pitch the yeast? I have a wort chiller but ambient temps aren't allowing me to get the temp below 80F. I've just been pitching and letting the temp drop over a 24 hour period. Could i let the wort sit for, say, a day before pitching without having any ill effects?

80 degrees is way too hot for most yeasts! You should be in the mid sixties.

The first 24-36 hours are the most critical for temp control as the yeast is reproducing. I think that may be the source of your flavor problem. I think it is much better to pitch later rather than hot.

I routinely pitch around 12 hours after flame out, leaving the wort in the kettle as that is more sanitary the transferring to a fermenter.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[bhowie4]

80 degrees is way too hot for most yeasts! You should be in the mid sixties.

The first 24-36 hours are the most critical for temp control as the yeast is reproducing. I think that may be the source of your flavor problem. I think it is much better to pitch later rather than hot.

I routinely pitch around 12 hours after flame out, leaving the wort in the kettle as that is more sanitary the transferring to a fermenter.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

How are you keeping your kettle covered while it's cooling? No cover? Trash bag? Kettle lid that has been sprayed with sanitizer?

 

[wilserbrewer]

How are you keeping your kettle covered while it's cooling? No cover? Trash bag? Kettle lid that has been sprayed with sanitizer?

I usually pour a little star San on the kettle lid and put it on.
Many, many years ago I also obsessed and thought the sooner you can get the wort on yeast the better, I've come to realize that pitch temperature is way more important.

Lately I have been "no chilling" overnight in the kettle. I brewed yesterday afternoon, my wort was still in the mid eighties this morning, I put the kettle in a large tub, added say 3-4 gallons of cold water and the ice from the ice maker, an hour later the wort was 65, I aerated and pitched about a pint of slurry from a previous batch right in the kettle, trub, pellet hops and all. Before the Kreusen falls I will seal up the kettle with a plastic bag and will let it finish for about ten days before racking to a keg. Damn 20 something's put a heavy dent in my pipeline last night so it will likely go straight to the keezer, rather than sit at cellar temps for a week in the keg.

I'm lazy and break a few brewing "rules", but I'm strict on pitching and Ferm temps as it can have a big impact on the beer.
Cheers

Ps I own a chiller, but find this easier and faster with less work involved,
I think yesterday's BIAB brew session was 2 1/2 hours, with a short mash and boil FWIW.

Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[bhowie4]

Alright, thanks guys. I'll start working on my pitching and fermentation temps. I've also purchased a cool brewing fermentation bag because...well, that's how addicted to this hobby I am. Still not sure how to dial in my gravity though. But i guess the consensus is that this isn't contributing to the strong alcohol flavor I'm experiencing? Any there tips for getting my gravity closer to what beer smith is calculating? Again, I never had issues nailing my gravity figures when I was extract brewing. Not sure why it's a problem now.

Oh, and wilserbrewer, I look forward to ordering one of your bags soon. I've just been too lazy to measure my kettle dimensions.

 

[masonacoats]

Alright, thanks guys. I'll start working on my pitching and fermentation temps. I've also purchased a cool brewing fermentation bag

I'm also a pretty new BIABer that uses the cool brewing bag. I find it works pretty well and for me, doubles as a mash insulator. Also, you asked about sparging. I do a 10minute batch sparge for extra efficiency. Pretty easy if you have a second pot laying around.

 

[Leithoa]

So, quick follow up question, how long can you let wort sit in an airlock sealed carboy before it's no longer safe to pitch the yeast?

If you can control the storage process and wort transfer process to ensure sanitary measures people have reported 1-2 month storage of wort in collapsible water cubes.
As others have weighed in you should be more than safe with 12-24hr delays. Though I wouldn't try the long storageg with a pilsner SMaSH that didn't have a long(+90min) boil.

 

[Patirck]

So, quick follow up question, how long can you let wort sit in an airlock sealed carboy before it's no longer safe to pitch the yeast? I have a wort chiller but ambient temps aren't allowing me to get the temp below 80F. I've just been pitching and letting the temp drop over a 24 hour period. Could i let the wort sit for, say, a day before pitching without having any ill effects?

I have this same problem - my wimpy 25' immersion coil just won't get my 10 gallons of wort below 75ish during the summer - I know I need to get a better chiller - its on my wish list.

YMMV but given my choices, I would rather pitch warm than take a chance on what should be a nice hoppy ipa that was brewed with care going sour.

I have had a few batches of what seemed like it was going to be my best batch ever go sour - and I think its because I waited over night to pitch yeast. I could be wrong but now I just pitch ale yeast at most a few hours after I put it in the fermenter and it is still warmer than it should be..

I have a ferm chamber and it gets it cooled down to proper ferm temps after 6 or 8 hours.

As for other stuff - I agree with what many others have said - I don't think your problem is related to brew in a bag - its sounds most likely to be a ferm temp issue.

One other thing I would check - calibrate the thermometer so you know your mash temp of 153 is 153 and not 147. Watery beer can be a product of mashing too low.

You also may want to try and insulate the kettle with a blanket or a few towels to keep the temp from dropping.

 

[ross_daly]

If you can control the storage process and wort transfer process to ensure sanitary measures people have reported 1-2 month storage of wort in collapsible water cubes.
As others have weighed in you should be more than safe with 12-24hr delays. Though I wouldn't try the long storageg with a pilsner SMaSH that didn't have a long(+90min) boil.

I recently listened to a podcast where they talked about how a lethal bacteria (botulism maybe?) can easily take root in no chill wort cubes. Boiling doesn't kill the bacteria, and it creates a toxin that can easily kill humans (one part per TRILLION can be fatal.) It isn't a certainty that yours will get infected, but there certainly is a chance that you could kill someone with your beer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism

 

[Leithoa]

I have had a few batches of what seemed like it was going to be my best batch ever go sour - and I think its because I waited over night to pitch yeast.

It sounds like some portion of your equipment didn't get as clean as you thought it did. If you take fresh, cooled, wort and put it in a sanitized sealed container it should take +3 days for properly boiled wort handled by well sanitized equipment to start fermenting.

Shame your batches went sour. Did you continue any as sour experiements?

I recently listened to a podcast where they talked about how a lethal bacteria (botulism maybe?) can easily take root in no chill wort cubes.

That certainly sounds like botulism.
I haven't done any no chill experiments but if I were doing long term storage I would follow the procedure outlined in my link: Bleach the 'cube for 20 min, probably use hot water and a full 5G of bleach solution followed by 3x 1Q DI water rinse and sanitize as usual.
Since you're using tap/DI water there shouldn't be any spores in that. I suppose there could be some on the grain. If you store it for months though and have any infection there should be bulging in the packaging to tip you off.

 

[Patirck]

It sounds like some portion of your equipment didn't get as clean as you thought it did. If you take fresh, cooled, wort and put it in a sanitized sealed container it should take +3 days for properly boiled wort handled by well sanitized equipment to start fermenting.

Shame your batches went sour. Did you continue any as sour experiements?

I'm sure something got in there from somewhere - I'm pretty carefull about sanitizing buckets but they are plastic - I have replaced a few of these that were suspect but I've had this happen with a brand new bucket from a lhbs as well. It could be something somewhere else or it could be that the bugs around it started having a party due to the high temperature of the wort.

Some of the sours ended up tasting "ok" after a while but they were nothing I'd ever want to make again.

I have thought of trying to use a kettle as a fermenter - I might revisit that.

 

[norcalniner]

+1 double crush your grain.