9.2% BGSA bottle conditioning inconsistency 3 months after fermentation began, 2 months after bottling

[mg298]

Hi,

I made my first BGSA/Duval clone on 2nd Feb at OG 1.075. I followed this recipe
https://www.greatfermentations.com/belgian-golden-strong-recipe/
but by accident put in about 60% more corn sugar (instead of candi sugar) than I should have. I also (deliberately) put in about 50% extra hops, as this was the packet size. I scaled up for 24l target wort, but ended up with 28l, which is why my OG was slightly low (given the extra sugar).
I cooled the 28l wort using a chiller, made a starter (1.5l + 2l two stage, decanted), and aerated the cold wort well, using a drill before adding the decanted yeast to 24l of wort.
For fermentation I used a plastic bucket with a brew belt and went from 18 degrees celsius (day1), increasing by 1 degree each day, up to 26.5 degrees.
The FG after 23 and 26 days was 1.004, giving 9.2% abv.
I transferred to a bottling bucket and used corn sugar syrup (which I made), before bottling in 500ml swing tops and storing in a temperature controlled freezer at 26.5degrees for 4 further weeks. I targeted 3.0 volumes CO2.

To check carbonation, I chilled a bottle in the fridge (for 4-7 days) and opened it. Decent pop, felt a bit flat compared to Duval, but acceptable. The taste was better than expected at this point - unremarkable - bit thin and weak for a 9.2% Belgian, but not unpleasant. I knew it needed more time to condition and didn't think further about it.

From this point on I only chilled (and opened more bottles) if I knew people were visiting that might like to try it. The results have been surprising (to me):-

Base (2 months carb test) fine, bit plain 6/10
Base + 1 week similar 6/10
Base + 2 weeks similar 6/10
Base + 3 weeks out of this world. Like Delerium but on steroids. I was speachless - maybe my best ever beer. 9.5/10
Base + 3.5 weeks visitor says best beer they have ever had 9.5/10
Base + 4 weeks This is too easy? 9.5/10. Even the wife likes it - she hates beer.
Base + 5 weeks resembles the first bottles. It smells like the 9.5/10 but tastes like the earlier ones, with a slight bitterness to them. Maybe 7/10. I tested 3 bottles all similar. I tested with other people who also tried the 9.5/10 and agree it's not as good, with more of a bitter aftertaste and without the sweet (ester/phenol?) aftertaste that the 9.5/10 had.

My question is, does this sound like I just need to wait for longer? I had assumed things would age at roughly the same rate, particularly given they were temp controlled. I did not expect to find some of the bottles at Base+3 weeks amazing, only to find others at Base+5 weeks not ready.

If this likely is the case, when will the bottles (if ever) become more consistent with each other?

What might cause the inconsistency?

any advice appreciated
thanks in advance
mg298

 

[JohnSand]

I don't know. I made a big Belgian once that needed six months in the bottle to mature. It stayed good for a couple of years, then fell off. I think the only thing you can do is keep aging. If it's oxidized or infected it will probably get worse. Keep us posted.
Welcome aboard!

 

[yard_bird]

I second possible infection during bottling, but also if I remember correctly, the Duvel strain is diastaticus positive, so it may continue to break down longer sugars over time leading to possible flavor drift. You could take another gravity reading of degassed bottled beer and see if that gravity is different from the gravity at bottling. Perhaps a rebrew with brand new bottles?

As John mentions too, O2 could play a role, especially if there are more late addition hops. This is an issue for me at least as someone who bottle conditions. I’ve only recently been dialing in my packaging procedure for hop forward beers. Part of this is getting all bottles cold after I think the batch is at its peak. Having flavor/aroma hops fall off might highlight that bitterness more, though two weeks difference seems short.

Hope this helps.

 

[mg298]

Both of your replies have been really helpful and steered me in the 'right' direction: Thank you.

I thought this related to bottles maturing, but it was suggested this could be O2/infection/diastaticus. I have tried further bottles and these have been similarly mixed. So far the bitter ones have not got worse over time (yet!), and do not have a flavour beyond bitterness (no cardboard etc). If it weren't for the fact I made it, I would question whether the bitterness was deliberate - to me it's not unpleasant, but masks other flavours.

Additional info: I used WY1388 - diastaticus positive, yes - I did not realise this was important after 3+ months - apologies. This was brewed in a plastic bucket and used a plastic auto siphon and plastic bottling wand. I opened the bucket twice for SG readings, and had issues with gas bubbles in the siphon for much of the bottling process. I had thought the yeast would remove this potential O2 during carbonation (but don't think that now). All bottles (and attached tops) were new and submerged in starsan for 1-5 minutes before sitting on a sanitized bottle holder. The beer is clear at room temperature but had a chill haze that persisted after two weeks, until recently – now it is better (see photo). No late hop additions. SG was 1.074, FG (bottle day) was 1.004. FG now is 1.004, perhaps 1.0035 but this might be an accuracy issue.

I brewed a second weaker Belgian blonde (WY3522) after this, following https://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/la_trappe_blonde_clone_-_040.pdf
I used a kegmenter for the FV (sealed, but not under pressure) and did not use a bottling bucket - I put 10ml of sugar solution in each bottle and transferred directly from the FV using a new steel bottle wand. I allowed air (with O2) to go in to the FV via the gas connector, to allow the liquid out (using a floating dip tube). I used a sanitized plastic syringe to start the siphon (by pushing air in) and the many times it stopped. I used silicone tube clamps to try to reduce potential air getting in the tube. I put steel washers on the floating dip tube to try to hold it under the surface and not suck in air, though maybe this failed - there were still bubbles in the tubing, which I assumed was because I didn't have the height difference to push them out (it was too heavy for me to lift – since resolved). I targeted 4.0 volumes CO2, no late hop additions and didn't open FV to take SG readings - used the bottling wand to take a sample before bottling. After a few days in the fridge, I have yet to see chill haze.

This later batch has same problem - some bottles have similar bitterness. Though this bitterness is occurring less often (1/10 say), once poured, the bitter beer is darker (which I only looked for from the O2 comments). I am also told that the bitter beer is less carbonated, though I wonder if this is because the bubbles can't be seen rising inside the beer (as it's darker). I do agree that the bitter beers don't create the same head, but they open with a huge pop and are still very carbonated to drink. I would have thought some of the (new) bottles were leaking and letting CO2 out and O2 in, but they have such a large pop… I don’t know.

In both batches, bottles were conditioned for 4 weeks in a temp controlled fridge at the end fermentation temperatures. After that they have been stored at room temperature. I did not try to foam the bottle headspace or leave them with loose caps to try to get CO2 to fill the headspace, but probably will do in future. I left a standard headspace size from removing the bottle wand.

Re Rebrew – I was planning to do something similar in a month or so. Maybe identical is the way to go...

To me this (now) sounds like I have oxidized the beer, but I feel a bit lost… any constructive advice/comments welcome. I know my bottling wasn’t perfect, but am surprised O2 in the siphon/tube could be so erratic and pronounced. Does this sound like what’s happened?

Images - BGSANonBitter, BlondeNonBitter, BlondeBitter

 

[mg298]

I had wanted to avoid fermenting under pressure, due to suppressing esters (I primarily brew Belgians) and increased risk of autolysis (I usually leave in FV for four weeks and am pretty sure fermentation is complete at that point, even with one SG reading), along with potential bottle foaming issues

Having reread some of the bottle threads, it sounds like I might be best off fermenting without pressure (8 days?), then pressure ferment at 3-4 vols, and bottle directly without priming sugar (around 4 weeks?), cap on foam.

This is outside my experience: what do ppl think about this? I have no idea how much autolysis I risk, how much foam is going to be a problem, or how much oxidation reduction I'll get. Will a steel bottle wand still work? Ideally I'd avoid buying co2 canisters...

 

[Beernik]

An easy check next time you bottle is to hold the bottle up to the light and check if it’s visibly clean. You could have individual dirty bottles. It’s happened to me.

 

[AlexKay]

I had wanted to avoid fermenting under pressure, due to suppressing esters (I primarily brew Belgians) and increased risk of autolysis (I usually leave in FV for four weeks and am pretty sure fermentation is complete at that point, even with one SG reading), along with potential bottle foaming issues

Having reread some of the bottle threads, it sounds like I might be best off fermenting without pressure (8 days?), then pressure ferment at 3-4 vols, and bottle directly without priming sugar (around 4 weeks?), cap on foam.

This is outside my experience: what do ppl think about this? I have no idea how much autolysis I risk, how much foam is going to be a problem, or how much oxidation reduction I'll get. Will a steel bottle wand still work? Ideally I'd avoid buying co2 canisters...

Bottling carbonated beer (especially highly carbonated beer) from a fermenter or a bottling bucket is going to be a nightmare without some way to counter-pressure to keep the foaming down.

Also, to get 3-4 volumes at Belgian fermentation temperature you're going to need an unreasonably high pressure. I don't think it can be done, really.

 

[yard_bird]

In my experience, Beernik's solution is most likely case. If bottles are tasting differently across the same batch, I start looking backwards through my process.

You're definitely taking steps in the right direction. I bottle all my beers, and have reused some empties several times. However, they're also my weakest link as far as QAQC is concerned. For your rebrew (if I were you), pick your favorite recipe of the two, and bottle in brand new bottles from the homebrew store.

I haven't had issues with autolysis on Belgian beers but I also don't ferment under pressure. Left an 11% Belgian quad in primary for four months on oak without autolysis flavors popping up. That could definitely change under pressure, but I don't think that's the issue.

Also as Alex is saying, bottling that carbonated beer could really suck. If the bottles are ice cold and wet, it'll foam less, but I still think fresh bottles is the easiest solution to try.

As far as oxidation is concerned: there's a big thread on here somewhere about bottling IPAs, might be worth checking out. I personally use KMS and ascorbic on my pale hoppy beers and it seems to work (anecdote). Something else I would consider is bottle geometry: for whatever reason, Pacifico bottles don’t work with my capper. The cap sticks, but it’s not a liquid tight seal. All were oxidized.

How do your other beers turn out?

 

[mg298]

thanks again!

All the bottles were brand new, but I did not check they were clean. I did a hand rinse, dishwasher (with starsan and rinse aid), hand rinse, then on bottle day, starsan internal rinser device, starsan soak, dry on bottle tree, then bottle. I haven't seen anything inside them, but I only looked at a few - I will check more carefully next time. Fwiw all bottles are brown 500ml swing top (not cap).

I won't consider the pressure fermenting for the near future for cap on foam further, as it sounds more difficult than I realised. I also don't really want the counter pressure co2 fed device yet - quite complex for me so quickly.

I have no similar bottling experience previously, as previous beers have been gifts/kits/plastic bottles. These kits were darker beers and I didn't (think I needed to!) wait for a while after carbonation before drinking them. As they weren't my chosen beer style, I didn't know what they were supposed to take like (they probably were supposed to taste bitter!) - beers were worse than the two Belgian batches for my taste, but had no variability that I could detect. I didn't read up on homebrew topics for these and blindly followed the instructions. I'd have started brewing years ago if I thought I could make beer as good as these two Belgian batches - even the 'bad' ones are better than what I thought I'd be able to make. It's only these two batches where I have read up on things and got equipment with the intention of reusing it.

re chemical additions, I have Sodium Meta, which I use to remove chlorine in the mash. Ascorbic Acid (AA) I'll get, as they sound like they work well together (YB's suggestion). I assume I can add to the priming sugar solution once it's cooled. Does it matter if I finish using it on the last bottle 1-2 hours after I first added it to the sugar solution? I take it with both of these, on balance they are deemed a worthwhile thing to do at a low enough dose? I find the odd piece of negative info about them, such as sulphur with SMS, and increasing oxidation with AA but I guess these are the exceptions or spurious. I have a slight mental block with SMS, given that I try to boil it off during the mash and it can kill yeast at higher doses, but if you guys think it's worthwhile, I will use both on the next bottling.

I thought when I decided to make these Belgians, my issues would be in the mash/fermentation, not the bottling! Maybe I didn't spend long enough reading about bottling as a result. I wish I'd never read the comment "yeast will scavenge oxygen in the bottle", as with hindsight, I have been too lax with O2. I am not sure why but I also assumed any infection I'd get was far more likely to happen in the FV

 

[yard_bird]

I usually add 1 crushed tab metabisulfite per 5gal when I either dryhop or cold crash (48hrs before bottling). I’ve done 5tab/5gal on the same timeframe but the only downside was carbonation since it does effect yeast health. Beer eventually carbonated though. Sulfur seems to blow off within 24hrs of adding. I stopped using ascórbico because i didn’t notice a huge difference (anecdote).

I used to bottle in the swing tops too (very convenient). I would consider dismantling the closure apparatus for sanitizing between batches. My grommets lasted about 1 year before I had to replace, but at that point I switched to crown caps.

Might be worthwhile to do a practice run with something like a brown ale or mild. Less affected by the O2 so you can determine if it’s an O2 or contam issue.