80 gallon batch help

[Beerum]

A little progress last night..
I got a sealed plastic 4x6x6 inch electrical box. It will house the electrical end of the heating elements. I'll test it out today to see if it will withstand boiling water and stay dry inside.

Picked up the 16gal/min pump. It is a plastic pool pump. I'm testing it today to see if it likes boiling water. It was only $10 on Craig's list so not a big loss if it won't work. It has a PVC housing, PVC impeller, a sealed motor bearing, and a 120V GFI in the cord. It disassembles enough that I can hit all surfaces with a cleaning brush.

Bought 1 1/2 inch soft hoses and 1.5 inch PVC Tees for the wort heating element manifold. This is instead of solid PVC plumbing that was getting out of hand. The spacing required to work with the plumbing made the electrical box grow too big. Soft tubing will allow the whole assembly to be smaller.

Bought a 1 inch watertight electrical fitting and 6 feet of 1 inch flex watertight conduit.

Bought a 50 amp dryer cord with #6 wire. That will stuff into the watertight conduit.

I bought conduit nuts to secure the heating elements into the electrical box.

That should be all of the parts needed to assemble the wort pump and heating elements. I still need a T and ball valve to manage re-circulation of the wort.

Pictures coming...

 

[Beerum]

I have to do a work trip. Won't be back to making beer equipment until Sunday Sunday I should assemble everything and do a dry (wet) run.

 

[MaryB]

PVC gets soft above 140f... it will not handle boiling water. CPVC is good to 180f...

 

[Beerum]

I think it should be kept blow 100C with this setup. "PVC starts to decompose when the temperature reaches 140 °C, with melting temperature starting around 160 °C."

 

[Beerum]

Here are a couple pictures of the heater elements and their attachment to the electrical box. This whole thing will be in the mash. The 3800 Watt heating elements are a different size threaded section (1 1/8 inch) than the 4500W element that is 1 inch.

The plastic Tees will connect to the cross with the soft tubing. It is the low pressure wort returning to the bottom of the mash. It won't matter if it leaks.

I'm a little worried that the electrical box will leak. That wouldn't be so good. Maybe I could glue the lid down. Another thought is to put the heating elements through an aluminum plate so that the electrical box won't deform and leak. The plate would be glued to the electrical box with JB weld.

 

[lschiavo]

I would not put PVC in my mash. Have you considered RIMS as an alternative?

 

[jddevinn]

I'm a little concerned that your flow rate isn't going to be enough to stop a local overheat for the material. I would suggest a water run (well I'd always suggest that) before trying with wort.

 

[Beerum]

Ok, so that didn't go so well. I was able to do a wet run and found that the water heating element gets really hot at the end that is bolted through the plastic electrical box. The box warped and caused a leak.

I think I have a solution to that. I've made an aluminum plate to which the heating elements are attached. That will be glued with high-temp silicon to the plastic electrical box. Everything else is mostly assembled. I need a little re-do on the suction side of the pump assembly. I also have to find a way to hold the stainless steel screen off of the bottom of the barrel and not allow it to sag to the bottom. I'm not sure what that will look like. In the Grainfather design it is a more solid screen. I may have to build some sort of stand for it out of PVC.

I've got 50lbs of Munich malted barley, and 50 lbs of Carmal malted barley. The free hops from a friend turned out to be way past over ripe and was not usable. The flowers had separated and were dry leafy things with none of the resin on the pedals. I have a line on some Cascade hops that is also free. There is also a guy with 5lbs for $60 on craigslist.

 

[Paps]

I would not put PVC in my mash. ?

I would not put PVC in my mash. ?

:smack:

 

[jddevinn]

If the element is warming up then the flow rate of wort/water over the elements isn't sufficient to remove all the heat that is being generated by the element. If properly balanced the element should remain roughly the same temperature as the wort/water. You do not want the wort to get over 168°F during the mash (locally around the element) or it will the enzymes will be denatured and stop conversion.

Max fluid temp in PVC is 140°F, do not put it in the mash and certainly not in the boil.

 

[jddevinn]

I also would not use a pool pump or submerge the heating element box.

Take a look around at a couple of the larger RIMS builds.

 

[lschiavo]

Max fluid temp in PVC is 140°F, do not put it in the mash and certainly not in the boil.

I wouldn't let PVC in contact with anything I planned to consume. No matter the temperature. Especially electrical grade stuff. I heat it with a torch all the time to bend it (conduit). I do my best to not breathe the fumes. The cement is a whole new level of toxic. Please don't poison yourself.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Update?

 

[Beerum]

Making beer Sunday. We are doing 40 gallons instead of 80, just a half batch

The electrical box leaked water into it from the conduit. I sealed the waterproof conduit with silicone caulk. I plan another water only run on Saturday.

The electrical box is not submersed in the wurt. It is suspended above the liquid level.

 

[Beerum]

I've been distracted repairing my Margurita maker. It makes 5 gallons at a time. It uses a garbage disposal to blend/crush the ice. It also needed some silicone cauking.

 

[Beerum]

There is a lot of PVC plumbing on the hot side of modern plumbing. The food grade barrel is made of pvc. 140C is way past boiling wurt. PVC is pretty inert below that temp.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

How did the 40 gallons turn out?

 

[jddevinn]

There is a lot of PVC plumbing on the hot side of modern plumbing. The food grade barrel is made of pvc. 140C is way past boiling wurt. PVC is pretty inert below that temp.

FYI, note that PVC is not typically used in hot side plumbing. That is normally CPVC.

Note that the temp that PVC is a thermoplastic with a maximum recommended temperature of 140F (60C) NOT 140C.

Source :ASTM D 1785 Standard Specification for Poly(Vinyl Chloride) (PVC) Plastic Pipe, Schedules 40, 80, and 120

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/plastic-pipes-operating-pressure-d_1621.html

http://knitowl.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-should-you-not-use-pvc-on-your-hot.html

 

[Beerum]

PVC at boiling is not a issue with chemical decomposition, it is a structural integrity problem. The Wert pump and open ended manifold will be at pretty low pressure. I don't think it will blow out a schedule 40 pipe.

Here is a website discussing pvc...

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questi...40-pipe-safe-to-use-in-a-potable-water-supply

"You should not worry about health. Most schedule 40 PVC is National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) rated for potable water, and it's likely that yours is. Do you see "NSF" printed on the pipe? Even if it isn't, I wouldn't worry about toxicity. The problem with PVC pipe is that it may have issues with leaks. It will degrade when exposed to UV light (such as sunlight), and also high temperature. Its pressure rating is to be derated at high temperatures. Because of this, PVC is not approved for use in houses for potable water."

 

[Beerum]

Here is the Frankenstein assembly. I'll weld a better one once this one proves that it works. The 50A 240V plug is visible behind the barrel.

 

[curtisbrewer]

what ever happened with this

 

[Beerum]

OK, it was a moderate success. We ended up yielding 25 gallons in the first batch. There were multiple problems with the shoddy assembler (me). We had a hose come apart when transferring from the mash tun which dumped about a gallon of sticky wort on the floor. The biggest issue was the manifold around the electric heating elements became clogged. The flow was drastically reduced and we caused a lot of steam but not enough heating of the system.
We ended up boiling the wort in another container to salvage the batch. Also the mash process lasted 3 hours at 140F instead of 45min at 150F.
The fix:
I will remove the restrictions (holes in the PVC) and make the manifold wide open at the bottom. There will still be back pressure on the manifold for wort because it is submerged to the top of the heating elements. I could add a valve at the bottom, but would have to figure out how to run it with a rod or some other mechanical contraption so I don’t have to reach in the scalding hot wort.
We put the carbonating sugar in the 80Galon Keg a week and a half ago. We are tasting the beer today.

 

[Beerum]

I ended up with 25 gallons of Irish Death (a regional beer in the PNW). There was a scorching problem with one heating element. The grain got in the outflow of the pump and clogged one of the PVC pipes making the wort not flow by the heating element. It made a heavy smoke flavor that is not bad, it is just not what I was trying to get.

From the specific gravity reading, the beer is about 6%. The sugar conversion must have been fairly efficient. There are a couple of things that I will do differently this next run. Mostly fermenting in the large container was not a good idea. Because it was not full, there was not an opportunity to do a blow off. The light tannins that normally go away in the blow-off tube are trapped in the beer. If your body is not tolerant of that, you can get a head ache. The other change is, I will remove the restriction at the bottom of the heater manifold that was clogged. There are holes drilled in the 2 1/2 inch PVC plastic cap. I will cut about half of the cap away.

We are down to about 5 gallons of beer left. The ladies won't drink it, so there is a little success there. By ladies, I mean my wife's brothers.

The next batch will be fermented in multiple carboys. The big tanks will just be used for carbonation and storage.

Grain Bill:
I think I have about 10 gallons of hops from friends and relatives. I also planted some in the back yard. The other big cost was the yeast. I did wet yeast. It was expensive to get enough to cover that big a batch. The next one will be grown in advance to generate enough. I got hooked up with a local wholesale malt supply, so that saves some cash. I think I can make 80 gallons for about $250-$330 depending on how heavy I make it.