80° wort dumped on last batch yeast cake... Asking for trouble?

[brucebeernut]

The coldest I can cool my wort is 80°F with the water here in Southern California. I want to try my next batch fermenting with the prior batch yeast cake... I plan on putting it in the fermentation chamber immediately afterwards to cool it to the proper temps. I'm using White Labs WLP090 San Diego Super Yeast.
OR
Should I put my brew pot in my keezer to cool down first? Worried here I might introduce bugs into the fresh wort since not a sealed environment.

 

[Psylocide]

Put the lid on after flameout... the steam will kill any nasties, then put in ferm chamber to cool the rest of the way.

I do no chill and have left mine in the kettle overnight like that several times to no ill-effect.

 

[cuda6pak]

It took me a year to figure out that a off-flavor I was getting was from pitching yeast into 77-85*F wort then putting it in the keezer to cool down immediately to fermenting temp of 65-67*F. Of course, this depends on what you're brewing but I was making mostly ale's and using US-05.

Now I always cool down to proper pitching temp and haven't seen the issue yet again.

 

[BigFloyd]

First chill the wort to 63-64*F in the chamber then pitch a portion of the old cake into it. Depending on the gravity of the new batch, you'll want to use anywhere from 25-50% of the old cake.

Yes, tossing 80*F wort on an old cake of 090 is begging for off flavors.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I accidentally pitched my last split batch with Oberon harvest in 5 gal and hefe yeast in the other at 83 F. I chilled overnight to 64, then slowly ramped up as normal. I have not noticed any off flavors, but both have not been in bottles long...

But I'd do what the other guy said, put on lid at flameout, cool in keezer

 

[Jwin]

I use an extra bucket filled with big ice blocks(tupperware, bottom half of gallon jugs) and water and a cheap pond pump from harbor freight$13 or so) to send ice water through my IC at the of the chilling cycle. I have a hose connect one one end and the pump connect at the other. I just disconnect my hosepipe, and connect the pump, reversing flow through the chiller, and recirculate the chiller waterback to the bucket.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I use an extra bucket filled with big ice blocks(tupperware, bottom half of gallon jugs) and water and a cheap pond pump from harbor freight$13 or so) to send ice water through my IC at the of the chilling cycle. I have a hose connect one one end and the pump connect at the other. I just disconnect my hosepipe, and connect the pump, reversing flow through the chiller, and recirculate the chiller waterback to the bucket.

Heck that just gave me a good idea. Why not fill old 1/2 gallon milk jugs with water, freeze, dunk in sanitizer, and throw right into the chilling wort?

 

[brucebeernut]

Thanks for all the replies... really helps!
Bottom Line, I need a better chilling option. I've seen and read about recirculating chiller water in an ice bath. Save some water too!
Cheers!

 

[Talgrath]

Pitching at 80F is just fine, no need to worry as long as you properly cool the wort down quickly.

 

[TheMadKing]

Pitching at 80F is just fine, no need to worry as long as you properly cool the wort down quickly.

I would pretty strongly disagree, yes it will ferment and make beer and it might even taste good, but imho you greatly increase the chances of off flavors. The yeast acclimate to their new surroundings after pitching very quickly, and if the temp is at 80F and then chilled to 65F in, say, an hour or 2 the yeast will become accustomed to those warmer temperatures in that time and probably will end up producing a very sweet/fruity estery beer and not ferment as completely as they would have if the pitch temp was lower.

As a general rule I never pitch at a warmer temp than the fermentation temp. I either pitch at the correct temp or just a couple degrees lower.

Just my $0.02

 

[TastyAdventure]

I would pretty strongly disagree, yes it will ferment and make beer and it might even taste good, but imho you greatly increase the chances of off flavors. The yeast acclimate to their new surroundings after pitching very quickly, and if the temp is at 80F and then chilled to 65F in, say, an hour or 2 the yeast will become accustomed to those warmer temperatures in that time and probably will end up producing a very sweet/fruity estery beer and not ferment as completely as they would have if the pitch temp was lower.



As a general rule I never pitch at a warmer temp than the fermentation temp. I either pitch at the correct temp or just a couple degrees lower.



Just my $0.02

You're right, it's not ideal, and it does *slightly increase the chances of off Flavors, but I have done it (accidentally) with success, and it's actually listed in the book Yeast as an intentional technique used by some commercial breweries to make up for under pitching yeast. Of course, it's not recommended if it can be avoided... Just sayin though

 

[Talgrath]

I would pretty strongly disagree, yes it will ferment and make beer and it might even taste good, but imho you greatly increase the chances of off flavors. The yeast acclimate to their new surroundings after pitching very quickly, and if the temp is at 80F and then chilled to 65F in, say, an hour or 2 the yeast will become accustomed to those warmer temperatures in that time and probably will end up producing a very sweet/fruity estery beer and not ferment as completely as they would have if the pitch temp was lower.

As a general rule I never pitch at a warmer temp than the fermentation temp. I either pitch at the correct temp or just a couple degrees lower.

Just my $0.02

Ah, but scientific experimentation has found otherwise...

http://brulosophy.com/2014/12/15/the-temp-at-which-we-pitch-exbeeriment-results/

Additionally, I've found it to be the same in my own home experiments; I frequently pitch right around 75F. As long as you get the beer into a cool area quickly thereafter you'll do just fine.

 

[cuda6pak]

Disagree as well. I was extremely careful and diligent about every aspect of my brewing and doing the same thing as the OP was the root cause of my mysterious off-flavor.

To date my only dump in 30 batches was a Two Hearted clone that suffered this off-flavor after pitching 80+ and immediately putting in my ferm chamber with probe taped to the side set for 65 ferm temps.

 

[brew_ny]

Disagree as well. I was extremely careful and diligent about every aspect of my brewing and doing the same thing as the OP was the root cause of my mysterious off-flavor.

To date my only dump in 30 batches was a Two Hearted clone that suffered this off-flavor after pitching 80+ and immediately putting in my ferm chamber with probe taped to the side set for 65 ferm temps.

the time it takes to get from 80 to 64-65 in a freezer is forever and if you dump your wort on a yeast cake

which is an over pitch to begin with and will take off like at rocket at 80 so no mystery where the off flavor will come from

but if it works for you OP go for it

all the best

S_M

 

[TobyG]

I would pretty strongly disagree, yes it will ferment and make beer and it might even taste good, but imho you greatly increase the chances of off flavors. The yeast acclimate to their new surroundings after pitching very quickly, and if the temp is at 80F and then chilled to 65F in, say, an hour or 2 the yeast will become accustomed to those warmer temperatures in that time and probably will end up producing a very sweet/fruity estery beer and not ferment as completely as they would have if the pitch temp was lower.

Pretty strongly disagree but use a lot of possiblys and mights? I can tell you from experience (20 years) that if all other aspects of brewing are solid, an hour or two at 70-80 is not going to produce anything off with the average ale yeast that it won't be able to clean up. As long as you are cooling quickly to that point, you should be fine.

And to all the people detecting 'an off flavor', what off flavor?

 

[BowAholic]

I'm watching this thread... made a batch of Centennial Blonde today and it was 97 outside...only got the wort to 77* before dumping it on about 1/2 of the nottingham yeast cake from yesterday's pale ale. It went into a 67* ferment chamber... I hope the brulosophy find is correct...

 

[TheMadKing]

Pretty strongly disagree but use a lot of possiblys and mights? I can tell you from experience (20 years) that if all other aspects of brewing are solid, an hour or two at 70-80 is not going to produce anything off with the average ale yeast that it won't be able to clean up. As long as you are cooling quickly to that point, you should be fine.

And to all the people detecting 'an off flavor', what off flavor?

Just being polite and not overly assertive. I've had 2 separate batches, one a brown ale and one a porter come out tasting like bananas and have a syrupy mouth feel when I pitched too warm. Brewed them again and cooled properly and they came out great.

So I suppose that tells me that it depends on the style, the yeast, and the rate of cooling, but why chance it?

 

[TobyG]

Just being polite and not overly assertive. I've had 2 separate batches, one a brown ale and one a porter come out tasting like bananas and have a syrupy mouth feel when I pitched too warm. Brewed them again and cooled properly and they came out great.

So I suppose that tells me that it depends on the style, the yeast, and the rate of cooling, but why chance it?

Therein lies the rub. There are a lot of variables that could lead to banana and under-attenuation. IME, pitching warm is not one of them in and of itself. Rushing fermentation, yeah, but I have a couple batches more than 2 under my belt.

 

[brucebeernut]

I use an extra bucket filled with big ice blocks(tupperware, bottom half of gallon jugs) and water and a cheap pond pump from harbor freight$13 or so) to send ice water through my IC at the of the chilling cycle. I have a hose connect one one end and the pump connect at the other. I just disconnect my hosepipe, and connect the pump, reversing flow through the chiller, and recirculate the chiller waterback to the bucket.

Jwin, I've already decided to ditch the high temp pitch (yeah, meant to do that). I have a pump coming from amazon and freezing some gallon jugs to run IC through/from a spare cooler to save water and hope I can get the wort closer to the pitching temp of 65°. I'll try to post some pix and results. Brewing Sunday.

Thanks again ALL for the confirmation trouble may be 'roun the corner from my op.

 

[MindenMan]

I have had nothing but problems with pitching warm. I get my wort as cool as is practically possible depending on the time of year. I never pitch any higher than 64* F, usually 58-60*F. I ferment at the low end of the yeast profile for both ESB 1968, and Irish Ale 1084, (the only 2 yeasts I use) and I am willing to wait a few extra days if needed for fermentation.
If it were me, I would use the un-refrigerated water from the hose until there was no more heat reduction in the wort, and then use the ice water to get the temp down lower. If you start out in ice water recirc mode, you will go through a huge amount of ice and you may not be able to get to the temp you want with the ice you have on hand. JMHO.

 

[TheMadKing]

Delete post please! accidental double post on Android app

 

[TheMadKing]

Therein lies the rub. There are a lot of variables that could lead to banana and under-attenuation. IME, pitching warm is not one of them in and of itself. Rushing fermentation, yeah, but I have a couple batches more than 2 under my belt.

As do I, I just meant that I only made that mistake with 2 batches before I changed my warm-pitching ways. Been brewing for years

 

[Jwin]

Jwin, I've already decided to ditch the high temp pitch (yeah, meant to do that). I have a pump coming from amazon and freezing some gallon jugs to run IC through/from a spare cooler to save water and hope I can get the wort closer to the pitching temp of 65°. I'll try to post some pix and results. Brewing Sunday.

Thanks again ALL for the confirmation trouble may be 'roun the corner from my op.

I recommend using your tap temp water until you get down to 100 or so, then swap to recirculation.

 

[MindenMan]

As above stated +1^^ The fastest change in temperature is usually from off boil to about 100*F, after that reaching 60*F can take a while based on IC size, volume of water and temperature of water. If you can stash five or six 1/2 gallon jugs in the freezer until each brew day to put in your "pump pond" after your tap water has done it's thing you should be golden.

 

[jahdub]

Ah, but scientific experimentation has found otherwise...

http://brulosophy.com/2014/12/15/the-temp-at-which-we-pitch-exbeeriment-results/

Additionally, I've found it to be the same in my own home experiments; I frequently pitch right around 75F. As long as you get the beer into a cool area quickly thereafter you'll do just fine.

I usually begin fermentations around 64-66F. I've never pitched yeast at that temperature, though. The lowest I go is 70 and usually closer to 75. Carboy goes into my freezer at the time of pitching and is cooled down to 64 over an hour or two. Reading this xbeeriment a couple months ago was very reassuring.

Even if I had the capacity to easily chill to 64F in the kettle, I doubt I would. Unless some part of my chilling process made it difficult to not chill to 64F.

 

[TobyG]

As do I, I just meant that I only made that mistake with 2 batches before I changed my warm-pitching ways. Been brewing for years

Right, but that's my point. You've only started 2 on the warm side. I've brewed a lot of batches and pitch as close as feasible to my desired temp, but even with a pre-chiller at this time of year, it's hard to get it below the mid 70s, and I have yet to have any sort of off flavor issues that I can blame on the pitching temperature. Banana, other than in Belgian or German yeasts which produce it as part of their character, is almost always an infection. The temperature may cause more of it to be produced (same with underpitching since it takes longer for the yeasties to grow and win out and then it's too late), but without acetic acid and isoamyl alcohol, it's hard to get isoamyl acetate.