75, 71, 66, 56... efficiency freefall!!!

[RallyintheValley]

I know there are tons of efficiency threads out there, because I've looked at them all in the past 24 hours.
I've adjusted my techniques based on the info given on this site and many others, but I'm still dropping over my last 4 batches! I just don't get it.

I'm going to give a walk through of my brew night last night, and if anyone sees some glaring problem that I am overlooking, please let me know. I'm at a loss.
I use Beersmith and do 3 gallon batches. I use my LHBS to crush. Here goes nothing...


Type: All Grain
Date: 9/7/2011
Batch Size: 3.00 gal
Brewer: Paul
Boil Size: 3.68 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.25 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.78 %
1.25 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 15.36 %
0.32 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.93 %
0.32 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.93 %
0.50 oz Centennial [10.30 %] (60 min) Hops 29.1 IBU
0.25 oz Centennial [10.30 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
0.55 oz Centennial [10.30 %] (15 min) Hops 15.9 IBU
0.55 oz Centennial [10.30 %] (5 min) Hops 6.4 IBU
0.55 oz Centennial [10.30 %] (1 min) Hops 1.4 IBU
0.50 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Yeast-Ale

According to BeerSmith....
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
60 min Mash In Add 10.18 qt of water at 162.5 F 151.0 F

I lost .5 degrees during the hour.

Batch Sparge 1: Sparge with .27 gallons 168 degree water
Batch Sparge 2: Sparge with 1.84 gallons 168 degree water

Here is what I did.
I added the .27 after the mash and stirred gently but thoroughly.
Vorlaufed until clear and added back to mash tun.
Drained cooler.
Added the 1.84 gallons, stirred, let sit for 10 min.
Vorlaufed until clear, added back to grains.
Drained.

Any help at all would be appreciated. I'd honestly be happy with any efficiency as long as it was constant. It's just hard to plan a recipe when I have no idea what my #s are going to be!

PJ

 

[phenry]

You're sparging with 168*F water, or your sparge temps get up to 168*F? You would want the latter, since if you use 168* water you aren't going to hit anywhere near 170*F, which is ideally where you want to be. I noticed a ~4% jump in efficiency once I got my sparge from 160* to 170*.

But that's probably not your problem. I'm guessing something is either up with your LHBS' mill or their grain isn't very well stored and soaking up a lot of moisture from the air (same # to less amount of grain).

 

[Yooper]

First, I'd look at the crush. It definitely is the single thing that most impacts efficiency. I went to a LHBS one time and crushed, and then I looked at the grain. I mentioned to the owner that it was barely crushed, and he came over and reset the machine. He said that "guys are always monkeying around with the mill!" So definitely look at the crush and make sure it's a good crush!

You did the .27 gallons as a mash out, but it wasn't enough to really get the grain bed up to 168 I'd guess. You can use hotter sparge water to get the grain bed up to 170. That won't make a big improvement, but it might help.

How much wort did you end up preboil- is that 3.68 gallons correct? Did you take a preboil SG?

With only less than 4 gallons in the kettle, I'd say that one of the issues is undersparging a bit. I would suspect that is the biggest issue. I make 5 and 10 gallon batches, and always boil off about 1.5 gallons per hour. If your boil off is only .68 gallons in an hour, you're forced to undersparge a bit.

 

[RallyintheValley]

phenry,
Thanks for the response. I just went back and checked to make sure that I had purchased my grains from the same place, and the only grains I hit 70 plus % with were from Austinhomebrew. So the grain could potentially be my biggest issue.
Also, I have been getting the sparge to 168 for the second addition, but clearly not with the first since it would be impossible to raise with only a quart of water. Would it make more since to use more sparge water for the first addition?

 

[RallyintheValley]

First, I'd look at the crush. It definitely is the single thing that most impacts efficiency. I went to a LHBS one time and crushed, and then I looked at the grain. I mentioned to the owner that it was barely crushed, and he came over and reset the machine. He said that "guys are always monkeying around with the mill!" So definitely look at the crush and make sure it's a good crush!

You did the .27 gallons as a mash out, but it wasn't enough to really get the grain bed up to 168 I'd guess. You can use hotter sparge water to get the grain bed up to 170. That won't make a big improvement, but it might help.

How much wort did you end up preboil- is that 3.68 gallons correct? Did you take a preboil SG?

With only less than 4 gallons in the kettle, I'd say that one of the issues is undersparging a bit. I would suspect that is the biggest issue. I make 5 and 10 gallon batches, and always boil off about 1.5 gallons per hour. If your boil off is only .68 gallons in an hour, you're forced to undersparge a bit.

Yooper,
I ended up with 3.7 gallons and, using leaf instead of pellet for the first time, my volume in the primary is about 2.75. I usually do hit just below 3 gallons in the primary with my loss set at 15% in BeerSmith.
I did not take a preboil SG. Should I? Would that be a better way to pinpoint where the problem lies?
Thanks for the response! Oh and your Dogfish 60 clone is phenomenal. Thanks for that too .

 

[RallyintheValley]

phenry,
Thanks for the response. I just went back and checked to make sure that I had purchased my grains from the same place, and the only grains I hit 70 plus % with were from Austinhomebrew. So the grain could potentially be my biggest issue.
Also, I have been getting the sparge to 168 for the second addition, but clearly not with the first since it would be impossible to raise with only a quart of water. Would it make more since to use more sparge water for the first addition?

I should have mentioned that I stopped ordering grain from AHB because I wanted to try brewing with the freshest ingredients. My last purchase from them took 15 days to deliver, so I started driving 40 minutes to the closest homebrew store.
I'd love to crush my own, but in our small apartment I already take up too much space with by hobbies

 

[Yooper]

Yooper,
I ended up with 3.7 gallons and, using leaf instead of pellet for the first time, my volume in the primary is about 2.75. I usually do hit just below 3 gallons in the primary with my loss set at 15% in BeerSmith.
I did not take a preboil SG. Should I? Would that be a better way to pinpoint where the problem lies?
Thanks for the response! Oh and your Dogfish 60 clone is phenomenal. Thanks for that too .

I'm glad you like that beer- it's still one of our all time favorites!

Yes, take a preboil gravity next time. You'll need to know your exact volume and then chill down a sample (in the freezer is fine) until it's under 90 degrees and then use a conversion table to correct the reading. That will help nail down whether there is a conversion issue, lautering issues, etc.

If you start with more wort, you'll have more wiggle room to boil off and of course more sparge water which will help improve efficiency.

I think we really have to consider the crush as the prime problem here, though!

 

[samc]

When you get your crush done by the LHBS, ask them to explain it to you. Snap a picture of it and post it up here for evaluation. At some point you will learn what is a good crush and what is not. You will also find out if the LHBS knows what they are doing. Maybe someone adjusted the gap and never put it back correctly.

 

[RallyintheValley]

I think next time I go, I'll ask them to make sure it's adjusted properly before I crush.

I'll post pictures when I do.

Thanks for all the feedback! It was getting frustrating to not be able to plan a recipe.

 

[Dgonza9]

I had a similar problem recently and it prompted me to get my own mill going. I was using the mill at my LHBS and it jammed and slipped a lot when crushing my wheat malt. The guy had to come and release the rollers. I should've run it through again. The net result was poor efficiency.

A mill doesn't have to take up too much space, but they can quickly get expensive, especially if you motorize.

 

[RallyintheValley]

The crush.

I switched back to Austinhomebrew.com for my grains, and sure enough my last 2 batches were 74% and 75%. I won't be going back to my other LHBS until I get my own mill.

Thanks for all the feedback! I really thought I was losing my touch.

Life is good when you are hitting your numbers.