57 gallon electric HLT build

[Brewpastor]

I have received my new HLT vessel. It is basically a 57 gallon keg, just like those JohnBeer has in his post about his new brewery build.

I am wanting to modify the unit and want some help and input. I want to heat electrically, and am thinking two elements might be needed. I will have a propane burner as back-up and supplement as well. So, I am thinking I want my welder to attach:

One or two 1" coupler for the heating elements (I am not sure)
One 3/4" coupler for the outlet
One 1/2" coupler for a sight-glass and thermometer combo
One 1/2" coupler for a thermo-well

Anything else?

I have a 220 outlet but can't say what amp it is. I am certain I can upgrade the breaker if needed. I don't really know what I need in the way of elements to get the job done on this project, but between Lowes and Grainger I can get most anything locally. I don't need instant heat, but then again I don't want to wait around forever. My brew length is 20 - 25 gallons and so this vessel will be able to supply both mash and sparge water without refilling. I will need to bump the water up from mash-in to whatever steps and then to sparge in a reasonable time. What input do you all have as to size and number of elements? If a single element will get the job done then I would be happy.

What else am I forgetting. The welder charges $45 per hour in full hour increments so I want to get all I can out of this in one shot.

 

[Duckfoot]

I can't think of anything else... Hell, I a, still stalled on my 100q E-HLT... Way to burst my bubble here...:cross:

Looking forward to seeing how it works out...

 

[CodeRage]

Before you upgrade the breaker you need to see what size wire is supplying that outlet. You dont want to put in a breaker with more amperage than the wire can safely carry. I would put in 2 1" bulkheads, an upper and lower like a dual element water heater may be a good idea. Limits thermal stratification. If you choose to use one element you could put a 1" stainless plug in the second opening. Cause, you know if you don't put it in there you will wish you had later.

Good luck man, sounds like a fun build!

 

[Bokonon]

I don't remember exactly where I got it from, but there is a spreadsheet floating around named "Electric Heat.xls" that will do some calculations for you.

To take 57 gallons of water that starts at 60 degrees up to 180 degrees will take:
5500 watts 3h 12min
11000 watts 1h 36min

With some quick googling I couldn't find any element larger than 5500 watts, but maybe there is on the commercial side of things

 

[The Pol]

I don't remember exactly where I got it from, but there is a spreadsheet floating around named "Electric Heat.xls" that will do some calculations for you.

To take 57 gallons of water that starts at 60 degrees up to 180 degrees will take:
5500 watts 3h 12min
11000 watts 1h 36min

With some quick googling I couldn't find any element larger than 5500 watts, but maybe there is on the commercial side of things

5500W at 220VAC will draw 25A... two of them will use 50A, requiring at least a 60A breaker. That is a lot of power... a heluva lot of power.

Even if you would find more wattage, your useful amperage in your residence may be lacking FWIW.

Looks like you would def. need (2) 5500W elements to heat in a reasonable amount of time, also consider the size (surface area) of the vessel. There will be copious amounts of heat loss unless you insulate well.

 

[BrewBeemer]

First off the OP states 57 gallons, this to the brim which is not a realistic
total brewing volume correct? Sounds to me like 40 gallons while brewing away with
30 or more net in the Corny's to tap off later at the most. JMO's here don't shoot me on
on my guessing here.

Try these at the bottom of my reply, great forums and information to work off.

There is another forum with the temp rise vs gallons used plus it will tell you the needed
wattage to match the time you want to hit a set temp. This forum at the moment is lost
with my old computer as it had a total HD failure. I am stll looking for this forum maybe
another brewer has this forum and post it. It was great to punch in numbers and get times
in minutes or watts required.
There are 6KW watt elements and higher out there your not
limited to 4,500, 5,000 and 5,500 watts.
I have found 5.5KW the highest in ULD elements.
Even at two 5.5KW elements your drawing 45.8 amps
a 50 amp breaker is already at 91.6% of it's rating without adding
any control power, lights or pumps.
With the 80% maximum rule should you follow it ok, (i'll get reamed out mentioning anything related to the NEC code book but then it's your house and not mine that the fire investigators will look thru the ashes then drop your fire insurrance policy if found wired wrong). Ok now your looking at a 60 amp breaker then your at 76% of the breakers rating as well the wiring and the cord to your brewery sized to handle this amperage.
Once you go over the 50 amp breaker zone you must face the bigger dollar cost of the socket and plug to plug in your brewing system, even 50 amp twist-lock's are not cheap price them out. Your into pin socket and plug cord cap zone this into the $300 plus range for both on up in cost. Price out a Crouse Hines or a Killark 100 amp plug not alone a socket and you'll go thru a 6 pack of toilet paper within seconds or sticker rectal shock.

This will get you into the same above forum to work out times, watts and temp rise.

http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

AND
http://www.brewmation.com/Elements.html

Hope this gives you some ideas and a direction. Carl.....

 

[ClaudiusB]

With the 80% maximum rule should you follow it ok, (i'll get reamed out mentioning anything related to the NEC code book but then it's your house and not mine that the fire investigators will look thru the ashes then drop your fire insurrance policy if found wired wrong). Ok now your looking at a 60 amp breaker then

If you are saying I can not load my 50 A or any other installed breaker at 100%, any home owner would need a device installed telling him the load is exceeding 80%.
Whats wrong with my interpretation?


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[CodeRage]

If you are saying I can not load my 50 A or any other installed breaker at 100%, any home owner would need a device installed telling him the load is exceeding 80%.
Whats wrong with my interpretation?


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Some one quoted the NEC handbook in which that the 80% load rules applies to continuous loads, which is defined as 3 or more hours by the NEC, was it you?

 

[Philip1993]

If you are saying I can not load my 50 A or any other installed breaker at 100%, any home owner would need a device installed telling him the load is exceeding 80%.

The device telling you the load exceeds 80% is the breaker itself. Breakers have internal thermal protection, and they will trip on load and heat buildup. Heat is directly related to load. Run a breaker at 90% for very long and the thermal protection will trip.

Size your breaker for 125% of continuous load (i.e. load = 80% of breaker rating) and all will work as expected.

As for the cost of a 60 amp breaker and outlet, you could always install 2x30A

 

[Duckfoot]

As for the cost of a 60 amp breaker and outlet, you could always install 2x30A

Not too mention you would need 4 gauge wire for a 60 amp circuit... KA-CHING$$$

I recently installed a 30A outlet to my garage for my brewing needs... Wasn't that huge of a deal... 100' of 10g wasn't that bad... The breaker was already there and the outlet wasn't too expensive...

 

[BrewBeemer]

If you are saying I can not load my 50 A or any other installed breaker at 100%, any home owner would need a device installed telling him the load is exceeding 80%.
Whats wrong with my interpretation?


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

You are correct, operating at 99 amps is totally wrong. How does a homeowner know? When the breaker trips and blame someone especially a electrician.

Sorry CladiusB, that would be called ignorance of the average home owner hence why electicians or wiremen go by the NEC code book, licensed with a 5 year apprentice program for a reason. The 80% duty maximum is to protect the general public and by the way the minimum requirements by the NEC code book. Homeowners are not wiremen or have a clue about the elecrtical trade which is understandable. This is built in for their own protection which is butchered up beyond belief by do it yourself homeowners without permits that would never pass inspection if a permit were on file with an inspection and a final signed off. Inspectors go by the NEC code book also.

I was always in Industrial and commercial at times as house wiring was always a total rats nest of crap and hazards I did not wish to get involved in. Same as mentioning or adding a helping reply to this thread, stupid me should of learned from my past mistakes mentioning the dirty letters "NEC", how stupid of me i'm pissed at myself again for not learning from the the past on this forum, sorry. I'll sit this one and future ones out, my four houses (two as rentals) are rewired to NEC standards and trouble free for the last 28 years for a reason. Done.................................

 

[The Pol]

I think the question Claudius had was...

So I have a 20A circuit in my home, and I overload it, start a fire (shouldnt as the breaker should trip) but anyway, are you saying that since I was over 80% on the circuit, that there will be an issue with my fire insurance?

I mean, I can just as easily overload a circuit that was professionally installed as I can the one that I install.

I guess I am getting the point with proper "planning" of the build and the requirements, but I can just as easily exceed a 20A circuit in my home that was put in by the builder as I can the 50A circuit that I installed.

I dont see how a circuit installed by a wireman that is say 20A is going to stop me from overloading it... ? I mean... I can do whatever I want with it, being the dummy that I am.

 

[kydan47]

I have a 55 gal ss drum that I've mounted 2 3500 elements and I heat up a 20 gal batch of water at about 2 degrees per minute.

Elements use 1" straight threads and you can buy 1" merchant couplings.

I installed a sight glass using a 90 degree elbow with pipe on one end, and a 1/2 " tube fitting on the other end.

I use 2 20 amp gfi breakers with 10/3 plus ground for wire to the outlets.

I usually fill and begin the heating the night before, setting the pid to the strike temp (about 163 or so), and next morning I have about 50 gal of water at the strike.

I pump enough water to dough in using the ballvalve on the mashtun so as to avoid suckback, and then reset the pid temp to about 185 for sparging. I usually flip the 2nd element on at that time. The temp is up long before the sparge.

I placed both elements at the base as is the thermocouple because that is where I'm pulling the water.

Makes brewing a breeze to come out and have 50 gallons of 170 or so water ready to dough in.

Cheers,
KY Dan
LAGERS/ FOSSILS

 

[ClaudiusB]

I think the question Claudius had was...

So I have a 20A circuit in my home, and I overload it, start a fire (shouldnt as the breaker should trip) but anyway, are you saying that since I was over 80% on the circuit, that there will be an issue with my fire insurance?

Pol you are very close,
I was only running the 20 A breaker or fuse at 100% (20A) no insurance or code violation in my mind.
I don't have a problem with the 80% rule during the design face of a new circuit.
If my electrical panel is equipped with a 20 A fuse or breaker I can pull 20 A all day without the fuse blowing or the breaker tripping, and no code violation either.
Exceeding the rating will interrupt the current depending on the design of the breaker (trip curve) or fuse.
Can take from seconds to minutes.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[CodeRage]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeRage
You only want to run low voltage breakers at 80% capacity when using continuous current.

The National Electrical Code (NEC) defines a continuous load American Electricians' Handbook: A ... - Google Books as one that continues for three hours or longer. Most homebrewing applications will not require one to run a heating element continuously for three hours. Restricting yourself to the 80% rule will not inherently make your system safer. These restrictions are usually applied to industrial or commercial applications where one has a device running continuously all day (perhaps 24/7). The best way to protect yourself and to build a safer electric brewing system is to understand the principles of electricity and to make sure that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) is properly installed.

I bring this up point because we have a lot of people who are getting interested in electric brewing reading these forums and it is not always clear what exactly the rules are and why they are in place. The 80% rule, in particular, brought me much confusion when I was first designing my system. I not even sure why this part of the NEC was brought up in the first place on these forums. And while the 80% rule has been explained on HBT in the past for some reason it seems to always reappear and applied to situations for which it was not intended.

Note: I'm not an electrician, just a fellow homebrewer who wants to educate.

Which makes sense, the breaker is intended to protect the wire, if the wire is rated for 20 amps, continuous current is not going to de-rate the WIRE. The de-rating of the breaker is to prevent wear on the breaker. Which the NEC says according to this excerpt isn't a factor until the 80%+ load has been sustained in excess of 3 hours. So the question is, do you plan on running 80% plus for 3 hours?

 

[LakeErieBrew]

I have a 55 gal ss drum that I've mounted 2 3500 elements and I heat up a 20 gal batch of water at about 2 degrees per minute.

Elements use 1" straight threads and you can buy 1" merchant couplings.

I installed a sight glass using a 90 degree elbow with pipe on one end, and a 1/2 " tube fitting on the other end.

I use 2 20 amp gfi breakers with 10/3 plus ground for wire to the outlets.

I usually fill and begin the heating the night before, setting the pid to the strike temp (about 163 or so), and next morning I have about 50 gal of water at the strike.

I pump enough water to dough in using the ballvalve on the mashtun so as to avoid suckback, and then reset the pid temp to about 185 for sparging. I usually flip the 2nd element on at that time. The temp is up long before the sparge.

I placed both elements at the base as is the thermocouple because that is where I'm pulling the water.

Makes brewing a breeze to come out and have 50 gallons of 170 or so water ready to dough in.

Cheers,
KY Dan
LAGERS/ FOSSILS

KY Dan, do you have any pictures? This sounds very cool.

 

[Synovia]

This is built in for their own protection which is butchered up beyond belief by do it yourself homeowners without permits that would never pass inspection if a permit were on file with an inspection and a final signed off.

The last time I did DIY wiring, and the inspector showed up, he asked "You do this yourself?" I said yes. His response?: "Thought so, its too clean and thought out to have been done by an electrician".

There's as many bad wire jobs out there done by licensed electricians as by homeowners.

 

[Brewpastor]

I have a 50 amp breaker that is professionally wired into an outlet. It was originally installed for a spa. Given the discussion it seems I need to go with a single element (as large as I can support). I can run this through a controller (yet another thing to work out) and set it the night before. I will have a propane burner to utilize for in process temperature adjustments.

So, what is the largest element I can reasonably support? And how does one go about setting up a Love controller (or similar)?

 

[CodeRage]

I have a 50 amp breaker that is professionally wired into an outlet. It was originally installed for a spa. Given the discussion it seems I need to go with a single element (as large as I can support). I can run this through a controller (yet another thing to work out) and set it the night before. I will have a propane burner to utilize for in process temperature adjustments.

So, what is the largest element I can reasonably support? And how does one go about setting up a Love controller (or similar)?

You can still use 2 elements. 2 5000W elements will put you just above the magic 80% number which is 9.6kW, considering 240 is usually uaround 220 it will put you under.

 

[Brewpastor]

Will the wiring of a controller for two elements be significantly more complicated than wiring a single unit? You need to understand I am NOT an electrician!

 

[CodeRage]

Will the wiring of a controller for two elements be significantly more complicated than wiring a single unit? You need to understand I am NOT an electrician!

Nah, You just need a minimum of 2 SSRs and one PID controller.

Put an SSR on one leg of the heater element. Repeat for the second element. Then, wire the +/- output from the PID to both SSRs. This will modulate the power to both elements. If you need to, I can draw something up for you during the weekend. I would do it now but it is finals week, being a working student sucks

 

[BrewBeemer]

Nah, You just need a minimum of 2 SSRs and one PID controller.

Put an SSR on one leg of the heater element. Repeat for the second element. Then, wire the +/- output from the PID to both SSRs. This will modulate the power to both elements. If you need to, I can draw something up for you during the weekend. I would do it now but it is finals week, being a working student sucks

Why buy two SSR's when one SSRD will do the same job? Seems a waste to me.
My brewing neighbor built his all electric after fighting propane costs and followed my electric build. He started out at 94% of the breaker rating because he had a spare already. It tripped all the time as it was an old hammered breaker used as a switch for years, I got 42 amps out of that 50 and it would trip within 5 seconds. He went to the electrial supply
house and purchased a new one and things were great until he turned on both March pumps at one time with his little flow control lights on his panel plus the small pond circulating pump. He now has a system on the edge tripping the breaker 3-4 times during one brewing session plus not knowing it at times while away on the warmup cycle. His days are a lot longer and a PITA. He is now at the limit of the breaker as well 72' of wiring underground to his brewing shed so he's looking as more money to upgrade the breaker and wiring and do it over again. This was a wifey battle the first time. Lucky he lives 9 houses away as he pushed his rig to my driveway where I have a 100 amp Killark pin socket with a spare plug to feed a 60 amp box wired to his brewery so he could finish his brewing day. The battle he now has is his wife with the cost of another breaker and a wiring upgrade. A perfect example. On electricians there are hacks out there I will not defend them, they would not last long in my local union we have seen tramps get the boot not alone the hall being called in to finish a commercil or industrial job that some non union could not come in on time or quality of work to pass inspection. Hey build what makes you happy is all I can say and good luck with your brewing.

 

[CodeRage]

Why buy two SSR's when one SSRD will do the same job? Seems a waste to me.
...Hey build what makes you happy is all I can say and good luck with your brewing.

How many times are we going to have this discussion? For safety, use a mechanical contactor, for control a single SSR is fine. If you want Safety and Control, use both. An SSRD is not that much safer over an SSR, plus it is twice the heat to shed because you now have 2 switching junctions. Relying on an SSRD alone is nuts. A power cable ran to a March pump in parallel to your control signal wire can produce enough EMF to fire an SRRD.

Now I see why you are suggesting using SSRDs... Not switching both sides of the element but one side of each element. Yeah, that would work, I am just use to you preaching SSRDs for both sides of one element . I dunno, I prefer discrete's for solid states, having that much thermal production in one small spot irks me. But, that is simply my opinion.

10kW on a 50 amp circuit is 83% capacity. Plenty of wiggle room (2kW) to run a few march pumps, panel indicators, and controllers. Get LED driven ones if you are that worried about it, they pull nano amps on 110.

Yeah, the NEC is a good thing. Im not going to crap on it. However, if a hardcore UL guy comes in here we're all screwed.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Running at 80% or as you mentioned 83% there is some wiggle room to add other electrial devices without being at the breakers maximum from the start.
Look at residential use with older homes even if they have breaker replaced Edison base fuses, these older houses were never designed for a garbage disposal, big wattage microwaves plus computers that many people add to one circuit alone. In my area I read a solid 122.7 and 243.2 volts and my digital Amp Probe and Fluke 87 this matches the math hence the breakers at their limits if pushing 11KW with pumps, controller and other small items. Nuff said by me I go by what I was trained, licensed and inspected by, standards I will and others I have worked with will not go under. Damn the code book remove the Edison fuses and add a penney in the holder. Hell I found a steel 1943 steel penney last year in a 1927 house. It was drawing 37 amps on a 20 amp circuit. My way your way it's fine with me but not around my house and rental houses. Renters will have circuits loaded to the max and not care and hammer the breakers. I have see it in the real world working the trade as a wireman not in a office on a drafting table, for some reason their ideas at times do not work in real life installations. Cheers, this horse is beat to death.

 

[Brewpastor]

Don't beat my horse, save it please!

Actually this is very informative, even if it is greek...

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

I agree this is greek to me, but I too am also enjoying it and realizing I have a lot of learning to do if I'm looking at going into electric heating, and I'm taking notes for that day far in the future I can actually afford to buy a home.
BrewBeemer and CodeRage, thank you both for your inputs, knowledge and playing nicely together.

 

[Brewpastor]

BrewBeemer and CodeRage, thank you both for your inputs, knowledge and playing nicely together.

Yes, good sandbox skills make the playground a nicer place for everyone.

 

[wehumble]

Hey Brewpastor,

If you are thinking propane as a backup anyway, what about a flash boiler set up on the fill side to pre-heat your HLT water? Even if you can't get it to strike or sparge temp in one pass through the coil, you can at least cut back on the time / power requirement of the HLT element(s).

Besides, you get more gadgets on one brew system that way.

 

[CodeRage]

Hey Brewpastor,

If you are thinking propane as a backup anyway, what about a flash boiler set up on the fill side to pre-heat your HLT water? Even if you can't get it to strike or sparge temp in one pass through the coil, you can at least cut back on the time / power requirement of the HLT element(s).

Man, Im thinking a 10kW heat exchanger.... That would be nuuuuts.

 

[Brewpastor]

I have a flash heater but don't like it. It is too fussy for me. I want simple and consistent. So for me a controlled HLT is the ticket. My Mash/Lauter tun is steam jacketed and so it can be used for any mash adjustments. I also have an independent steam kettle if I want to decoct. I even have a controlled herms and rims for step mashing.

Jeez, as I read this a realize I have too many options... Ain't I lucky?!