57% Efficiency, AGAIN!

[Dionysos911]

So for the 3rd AG session in a row (and in total) I have been getting about 57% efficiency. I would really like to improve this. Here is my process..

I get my grains from the brew store and crush twice. 1st crush I do at their recommended setting and then I do a 2nd crush a bit finer.

This last time I doh'd in at 167 water hitting a temp of 154 mashing at 1.25 water/grain ratio. (this was 4.5 gallons of water). I stirred a few times over an hour and only lost 1degree. (Using 10 gallon igloo)

I drained into the boiler while heating up 2 gallons of water to 190. I dumped that in and got the grain bed to about 164. Stirred then drained after it set for 10 min. Then I dumped in 2 more gallons at 190 got my grain bed to about 170. Stirred then drained after 10 min. Of course caught first runnings and such.

Boiled for 60min and this time hit my target batch size of 5.25 gallons.

Any suggestions? Am I missing a step here?

 

[TexLaw]

It's hard to say. It could be the crush, but it sounds like you have that covered. It could be your mash chemistry, but you have no details about that. Are you checking for conversion before you mash out and sparge?

Try skipping the mash out on the batch sparge. 164 is lower than I like my mash out, anyhow. Just drain the first runnings and add the first half of the sparge water (at a higher temperature to try and get your bed up to 170F on the first go-round).

Also, are you measuring the gravity of your runnings as they come out of the MLT? It's hard to know where your problem lies, if you don't. If your gravity is too low on your first runnings, you most likely have a problem with your mash chemistry. If your final runnings are high, then you have a problem with your sparge technique.


TL

 

[chuggs]

What kind of water are you using? Are you adding any chemicals to the water?

I think your pH must be off...

I get pretty good efficiency...I use activated charcoal filtered tap water...here in FL. I add just a bit of gypsum, and a bit of Lactic acid to the water. Minerals in the water help buffer the pH in the mash. If you're using some really hard water...your pH may be too high. You'll benefit greatly from a bit of Lactic Acid in the water. Checking the pH with test strips during the mash... and perhaps adding an acid rest to your mash schedule.

 

[mkling]

By my calculations, you were using ~14.4 lbs of grain. (Is that right? I based it on you water ratio & 18 quarts of mash water.) For that much grain, two 2 gallon batch sparges seem too small. I almost think you'd be better off doing one larger sparge. 2 gallons in 14.4 lbs of grain doesn't seem like it would loosen up the sugars from the grain enough.

 

[Dionysos911]

By my calculations, you were using ~14.4 lbs of grain. (Is that right? I based it on you water ratio & 18 quarts of mash water.) For that much grain, two 2 gallon batch sparges seem too small. I almost think you'd be better off doing one larger sparge. 2 gallons in 14.4 lbs of grain doesn't seem like it would loosen up the sugars from the grain enough.

That is what I did last weekend.. Single sparge with 4 gallons of water. Thats why I tried the double sparge to see if it made a difference.

Also, are you measuring the gravity of your runnings as they come out of the MLT? It's hard to know where your problem lies, if you don't. If your gravity is too low on your first runnings, you most likely have a problem with your mash chemistry. If your final runnings are high, then you have a problem with your sparge technique.

I have only been measuring gravity at pitch.

What kind of water are you using? Are you adding any chemicals to the water?

I just use straight Seattle tap water which I have heard is really good as is.

 

[maho]

Some of the obvious things you can check first:

Check your thermometer. I have had thermometers that have been 10 degrees off.
Check w. ice water (~32F) and boiling water (~212F)

Check your Gravity reading. Basically you check with pure water and a sugar solution. If you use 1qt and about 3.5oz of DME you get app. 1040.

Once you have determined if your measurements are accurate you can start debugging the process.

This hits close to home, as I also have been battling efficiency issues (started at 55%). I ended up buying a Barley crusher, using PH5.2 and stirring for 5-10 between sparge batches.
Now I am consistently at 75%, which to me is perfect.

 

[FreakinA]

+1 for thermometer calibration.

 

[chuggs]

If the thermometer is off...wouldn't he get purple in his iodine test at the end of the mash?

You are doing an iodine test, aren't you?

Thermometer check sounds like very good advice...

 

[TexLaw]

+1 for thermometer calibration.

+2 on that, as well. I ran into a bum thermometer once, myself.

The quickest way to determine where your problem is will be to measure the gravity of your runnings or, at least, do an iodine test to see if you are converting. Shoot, just tasting the mash tun liquor (i.e., is it sweet and sticky, or is it more starchy) will tell you something.


TL

 

[Saccharomyces]

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000 on the thermometer. Thermometers are garbage unless you spring $100 for a lab grade thermometer you MUST calibrate it and re-check it nearly every time you use it.

I had no end of problems until I bought a Thermoworks thermometer they are quality, I can't recommend them enough.

Other thing is pH. You will not get good yield if your pH is off so if you don't want to mess with the water chemistry get some pH 5.2 stabilizer and use it.

 

[chuggs]

I hear you on crappy thermometers.

I was doing a mash once...and I had one of those new fangled digital thermometers with the probe. Little did I know...if you submerge those probes...and a little liquid goes into the crimp where the probe attaches to the flexible wire. It ruins it. I was watching as the temperature slowly came up to 155...but wondered...why are there bubbles in my mash --- like it's begining to boil??? Crap! that taught me a lesson.

Now I check them in crushed ice & water to see that they're on target...and use two different thermometers to keep track of mash temperature.

 

[Dionysos911]

Some of the obvious things you can check first:

Check your thermometer. I have had thermometers that have been 10 degrees off.
Check w. ice water (~32F) and boiling water (~212F)

Check your Gravity reading. Basically you check with pure water and a sugar solution. If you use 1qt and about 3.5oz of DME you get app. 1040.

Once you have determined if your measurements are accurate you can start debugging the process.

This hits close to home, as I also have been battling efficiency issues (started at 55%). I ended up buying a Barley crusher, using PH5.2 and stirring for 5-10 between sparge batches.
Now I am consistently at 75%, which to me is perfect.

I typically use 2 thermometers. 1 floating and 1 beverage. I use them fairly interchangeably but they seem fairly consistent with either other.

I have checked my gravity readings but only with water, haven't tested it sugar'd water yet.

I do the iodine test and so far so good.

I am thinking of trying an even finer crush next time to see if that helps. Hopefully I will get this dialed it. On a bright note I did at least get my water quantity correct this last time.

 

[michael.berta]

Is there a chance that your math is off and your efficiency is just fine? I didn't see you post a recipe with target OG and actual measured OG. In addition to your thermometer being off your hydometer could be off too.

I also brew in (north) Seattle. I just carbon filter the tap water and it works great. No water additions on 15+ AG batches. I shop at both Bob's Homebrew and Cellar Homebrew and always only crush my grains once. Again no problems.

 

[bob1852]

how are you measuring volume? are you relying on the printed marks on Ale Pails?

Are you letting your MLT drain completely, and then some? I noticed today my MLT would "drain" - but when I pulled the hose off, it would drain another ~1/2 gallon or so.....

Is your hydro/refracto calibrated?

 

[Dionysos911]

Is there a chance that your math is off and your efficiency is just fine? I didn't see you post a recipe with target OG and actual measured OG. In addition to your thermometer being off your hydometer could be off too.

I also brew in (north) Seattle. I just carbon filter the tap water and it works great. No water additions on 15+ AG batches. I shop at both Bob's Homebrew and Cellar Homebrew and always only crush my grains once. Again no problems.

I used beersmith to calculate everything so I am assuming fairly accurate. I will be checking my hydrometer and thermometer before my next brew session.

I go to cellars for my grains. What setting do you use?

how are you measuring volume? are you relying on the printed marks on Ale Pails?

Are you letting your MLT drain completely, and then some? I noticed today my MLT would "drain" - but when I pulled the hose off, it would drain another ~1/2 gallon or so.....

I made my own marks on this pail by putting in 1 gallon of water at a time and marking it. May not be exact but should be fairly close.

I let the MLT drain pretty well. I leave the valve open usually for 10-15 minutes after the flow has slowed to a drip.

 

[Bobby_M]

1. Check your MLT dead space. If it's more than a quart, that would contribute to the problem.
2. Take a gravity reading of first runnings which will tell you your mash conversion.
3. Iodine test before first runnings to check conversion.

Folks have been having some better luck with conversion with a thinner mash. Try 1.5qt/lb and go with a single sparge as an experiment.

 

[TBrosBrewing]

If your not checking your conversion with iodine, you could also extend your sac rest to 90 min to help rule out a conversion problem. Personally I use 1q/lbs ratio and hit about 80%. Its thick but I also ensure I have enough water in the following 2 sparges.

 

[michael.berta]

I go to cellars for my grains. What setting do you use?

They have two grain mills. I use the one on the right when facing the back of the store. I just use it on whatever setting is there. I didn't know it could be adjusted.

 

[michael.berta]

Try 1.5qt/lb and go with a single sparge as an experiment.

+1. This is exactly what I do. With the same water & the same LHBS as the OP

 

[Dionysos911]

They have two grain mills. I use the one on the right when facing the back of the store. I just use it on whatever setting is there. I didn't know it could be adjusted.

I have never used that one. I think I'll try it next time. The one on the left has multiple settings. Pretty sure it's a coffee grinder since it recommends using "drip."

 

[Dionysos911]

+1. This is exactly what I do. With the same water & the same LHBS as the OP

How long do you mash? Do you mash out? What temp do you usually bring your sprage water to?

 

[michael.berta]

The one on the left has multiple settings. Pretty sure it's a coffee grinder since it recommends using "drip."

LOL

 

[michael.berta]

How long do you mash? Do you mash out? What temp do you usually bring your sprage water to?

If I am mashing at 150 or higher I do a 60 minute mash. If I am mashing at 149 or lower I do a 90 minute mash. I've never done any sort of iodine test but I always hit my gravities for a recipe w/ 70% efficiency.

Sometimes I mash out. I didn't this last time and I still hit 70%. I'm not sure it really does anything. I might not do it anymore.

I am heating my sparge water up to about 180ish. My thermometer usually reads between 165 and 170 when I add the sparge water.

Another thing I thought of:

How fast are you lautering? When draining the mash runnings and the sparge runnings I never hold the handle of the MLT all the way open. Usually about 1/3 of the way open and it takes about 10-15 minutes to drain. (I do 10 gallon batches)

 

[Jersh]

I have only been measuring gravity at pitch.

I'm surprised nobody has commented on this.... I'm admitadely NOT an expert, but I believe to accurately calculate efficiency you need to know your preboil gravity, and calculate effeciency using the preboil gravity and preboil volume (at least that is how I've been measuring my efficiency)

 

[maho]

I only measure gravity at pitch as well, then again I have no efficiency problem...

Reg. lautering speed its full on.. I double batch sparge (using BobbyMøs NMODBS), the important part when doing batch sparging is to stirr, get into it and work that mash...5 mins minimum...then vorlauf..and drain at full speed.

Secondly the Seattle water is great.. in that it pretty much doesnt contain anything except Cl. Filter it and use either PH5.2 or at least some gypsum, especially if you want to make IPAs.

Thirdly I have to go to 190F on the spargewater to get my mash (5gal batches) to 165 to 170F.

And check that thermometer today...

Good luck
Hommel Homebrew

 

[The Pol]

I'm surprised nobody has commented on this.... I'm admitadely NOT an expert, but I believe to accurately calculate efficiency you need to know your preboil gravity, and calculate effeciency using the preboil gravity and preboil volume (at least that is how I've been measuring my efficiency)

Well, not really.

Depends, are we talking mash efficiency? Brewhouse efficiency? Conversion efficiency? Lauter efficiency?

If you are taking pre-boil gravity and volume only, you are not calculating your brewhouse efficiency, which is what most brewers are concerned with. Why? This will tell them, with a given recipe, if they will end up with a 5 gallon batch (or whatever they target) at thier target SG. Nothing else will, preboil numbers will not assure this.

It is best to take a mash SG reading prior to sparge (this will tell conversion eff.) so that you can determine how well you are converting sugars.

Then I take the pre boil SG and volume measurements, this tells me how eff. my lauter is, this is important as much can be lost by flaws in this process.

Then I take a post boil gravity and volume reading, this is my brewhouse efficiency... this is what will tell me in the end whether or not a certain recipe will yield the correct amount of wort at the correct SG. THIS is the # that you plug into your brewing software, if you use one.

The problem with basing your eff. on PREboil SG and PREboil volume is that it isnt your brewhouse eff., which is what everyone is talking about when they say that they get 80% eff. Your PREboil readings will indicate a higher eff # than your post boil #s will. Why? Because you are most likely losing wort to hops, trub and such, which will reduce your eff. So if your PREboil eff. reading is say 80%... you are looking at about 70-75% brewhouse eff. which is the # that brewers use when talking about thier eff., as it is hte important #. This assumes a loss of .25-.50 gallons to hops, trub and losses in chillers or whatever it may be between the kettle and fermentor.

This is why no one commented on this, he is taking the typical eff. reading, brewhouse.

 

[Jersh]

Well, not really.

Depends, are we talking mash efficiency? Brewhouse efficiency? Conversion efficiency? Lauter efficiency?

Seeeee, there's a reason I said I'm no expert lol

Ok so now how would I calculate my brewhouse effeciency, based off of these numbers from my last brew:

5.39 # pilser, 36 ppg
4.31 # white wheat malt, 40 ppg
1 # of orange blossom honey at flameout

Preboil volume - 7.3 gallons
Preboil gravity - 1.042

Batch volume - 5.0 gallons (volume of wort that made it to primary)
OG - 1.057

 

[The Pol]

Well, here ya go...

5.39 x 36PPG = 194.04
4.31 x 40ppg = 172.4
1# honey (unknown PPG) estimate 35PPG = 35

TOTAL points = 401.44 points at 100%

DIVIDE by 5 gallons wort = 80.288 points

Divide your 57 points by 80.288 = 70.9% eff.

 

[Jersh]

sweet, thanks! and my apologies to the OP, I didn't mean to hijack your thread

 

[The Pol]

Now, if you want to see your actual brewhouse eff. you would probably want to subtract the honey, since that isnt mashed and is 100% eff. (obviously) it skews your #s a little.

Subtract 35 points from the 401.44 = 366.44

35 points/5 gallons is 6 points, so without this your SG would have been 1.051

366.44/5 gallons = 73.288 at 100% eff

51 (your SG without the honey)/73.288 (the extract potential) = 69.5% eff.

The honey artificially increases your eff. since it is sugar, isnt mashed... it is like adding DME... it is 100% eff. and will skew your #s

Now if you are interested in figuring out where your eff. is going (lost) you can take a mash SG reading to see if you are getting 100% conversion. Compare this to your PRE BOIL and that will tell you how eff. your lauter is. Then your post boil will basically tell you what you are losing in volume, as with a consistent boil off, your post boil SG should be very predictable based on your pre boil SG.