5.2 Mash Stabilizer - alternate uses

[Redcat]

I bought a container before I knew better. :smack:

Since I now know that I shouldn't put this stuff in my mash or beer, what do I do with it now that I have it?

Is it useful in improving the sanitizing ability of StarSan or cleaning ability of homemade PBW?

Or is the only place for it the trash can or porcelain bowl?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I used mine as a landfill stabilizer.

Got the same results as I did with a mash.

 

[pmoneyismyfriend]

what problems are you having with this product. I use it, my beers all turn out great and this stuff does reduce ph levels

 

[botigol]

I've never used it, but I read that depending on your beginning water profile it may not affect the pH and that it oftentimes leads to perceptibly high sodium levels.

 

[zach976]

I use it and it works fine.

 

[Iseneye]

There is a thread on the same page covering the issues with 5.2:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-5-2-stabilizer-experience-517315/

 

[ajdelange]

It's a mixture of monobasic and dibasic sodium phosphates, mostly the former, and so you could use it for anything you use sodium phosphate for. So what do we use mixtures of sodium phosphate for? Buffers. That what this is supposed to be but as repeated threads (including the one linked to in the previous post) have gone over it doesn't buffer to the right pH and even if it did it would be a poor buffer at those pH's. Phosphate buffers are fine near the pKs of phosphoric acid and if you could change the mix of salts in this product for the appropriate pH's (near 2, near 7 and near 12) you would have good buffers. And you can change the mix of salts simply by adding acid or base. To make buffer for near pH 2, make a solution and add phosphoric acid until the desired pH is reached. To make a buffer near 7 or 12 add lye (sodium hydroxide) until the desired pH is reached. The pH buffer used for calibrating pH meters at pH 7 is a phosphate buffer. Conceptually, you could take a solution of 5.2, add lye to it until a pH meter immersed in the solution read the same pH as when immersed in a purchased buffer. Seal this up in a bottle and you have a buffer you can use to calibrate your meter.

In days of yore TSP (trisodium phosphate) was a very poplular cleaner and degreaser (look it up on Wikipedia). You can make TSP from your 5.2 by adding enough lye to a solution of it to get the pH up to 13 or higher. If you want TSP powder you can evaporate the water. As in any operation involving lye you must wear gloves, apron and face shield if you decide to do this and so I guess I really recommend that you don't.

As it contains lots of phosphorous it could be used as a fertilizer in a situation where phosphorous is needed. It is a little acidic (buffers to around 6) so keep that in mind if your plants are sensitive to low soil pH.

 

[ajdelange]

I use it and it works fine.

It does work fine for people who don't own pH meters. For people that do own pH meters it doesn't work at all.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It does work fine for people who don't own pH meters. For people that do own pH meters it doesn't work at all.

So very much this .....

I even had to borrow a secondary pH meter because I thought "Surely this stuff is doing SOMETHING that it claims to do. My meter has to be disfunctional."

Nope. Meter was fine.

It did do something tho. Made the water saltier.

 

[TrickyDick]

I bought some when I started all grain, thinking it would help, this was back in 2005. I did buy ph strips (the colorphast ones) I used it in my first batch. No water testing or clue about importance of water chemistry. No minerals other than gypsum on hand. Beer was OK but not great. PH was never ideal. I added more stabilizer to that trying to get it to lower the ph. I never had the heart to throw the stuff out, but have never used it again. Now I know enough about water chemistry to get my mash ph into acceptable range for a variety of styles and I do it without using stabilizer and check pH with a calibrated meter several times (or once if I'm really lazy). My beer has gotten better by doing this. I think it is a disgrace that the stabilizer product is sold. Isn't it made by five star? They have a great cleaner and a great sanitizer and I find it kind of strange they would be hawking snake oil on unsuspecting homebrewers. Could be its not five star. At any rate, the stabilizer is a reminder of my humble and ignorant beginning doing all grain beers.

TD

 

[Yooper]

I hate to throw stuff out also, and this brought to mind a conversation AJ deLange and I had a few years ago.

It's possible that I could use this stabilizer as an addition to my sparge water, from what I remember.

I ended up buying an RO machine, so now just sparge with RO water and put the stabilizer in the back of the cupboard.

I don't remember the reasoning behind that (maybe AJ will?) but if your tap water is alkaline, could that be a possibility?

 

[WNCBrewman]

I get better efficiency when using 5.2 than when not using it. It seems to work fine for me as well, and do not have any issues with my brews being salty. My efficiecy with it is around 77. Without it around 65....I typically add it right after I add the grains into the mash.

 

[ajdelange]

It's possible that I could use this stabilizer as an addition to my sparge water, from what I remember.

It does try to buffer to around pH 6 so I suppose you could use it to 'acidify' sparge water but even the small amount of the dibasic salt present would make it impossible for it to neutralize any more than small amounts of alkalinity. Compare to 28 mg/L phosphoric acid which could neutralize 100 ppm as CaCO3 and introduce no sodium.

 

[ajdelange]

I get better efficiency when using 5.2 than when not using it. It seems to work fine for me as well, and do not have any issues with my brews being salty. My efficiecy with it is around 77. Without it around 65....I typically add it right after I add the grains into the mash.

You have a very strange mash chemistry or you aren't measuring efficiency properly/consistently. I'd bet on the latter.

 

[mchrispen]

It does work fine for people who don't own pH meters. For people that do own pH meters it doesn't work at all.

Mods, can we sticky something like this? Keeps coming up.

 

[Yooper]

Mods, can we sticky something like this? Keeps coming up.

good idea!

AJ has probably typed the same thing 100 times, I'd bet. We need something like a post outlining the information to sticky a thread, though. I can dig around, but if someone has the information handy to make into a sticky that would be great!

 

[ajdelange]

AJ has probably typed the same thing 100 times, I'd bet.

Yes, but I get 'Likes' for it every time. Six in this go round.

I'll try to put something together for a sticky.

 

[mchrispen]

I am grabbing some screenshots of the marketing claims... not sure if we are allowed to make a bold statement against 5 Star products from a political perspective - at least where a sticky might be perceived as an endorsement of a point of view.

 

[mchrispen]

Well feel free to build from these...

RebelBrewer

Northern Brewer

MoreBeer

MoreBeer

 

[zach976]

It does work fine for people who don't own pH meters. For people that do own pH meters it doesn't work at all.

Sounds like you have it out for this product.

 

[stat]

Sounds like you have it out for this product.

The thing is, with science at least, things either work or they don't work. There's no "I feel this works" or "it works for me" it either does or it doesn't.

5.2 doesn't. Anyone with a ph meter can test that, and find the same result.

 

[bob1852]

Sounds like you have it out for this product.

So do thousands of other brewers who have realized it's snake oil....


Would you buy a product called "45 IBU - it's guaranteed to lock in your homebrew at 45 IBU's everytime!"

It's nonsense to think that any product could do what it purports to - lock in mash pH at 5.2, regardless of grist composition, starting water chemistry, water volume, mash temperature, etc....

 

[Gavin C]

Sounds like you have it out for this product.

This statement is not a fair one.

If you read even a tiny portion of AJDelange's posts in the forum you will quickly realize how generous he is in his sharing of his knowledge. He is demonstrably well versed in water chemistry and probably every other facet of brewing and regularly and patiently offers suggestions and clearly parsed scientific reasoning to support them. I'm sure he is often weary of idiots like me asking questions, making incorrect assumptions and being ill equipped to tackle water chemistry. Nevertheless he gives of his time and expertise freely adding his wealth of knowledge to HBT. I like many others are in his debt.

My pH 5.2 was trashed a few brews back on foot of some minimal homework.

 

[zach976]

Everybody calm down. I just thought the comment that was made on my post was rude and uncalled for. I'm not an effing scientist but the product for as much as I can tell seems to work. Who cares who uses it or why they use it.

 

[Gavin C]

This is the brew science forum the very place where the why and how of brewing should be discussed. This is a chat forum. People take part because they do care what they use, why they use it and what science exists to support the veracity of products' claims.

If you don't care move on to another thread. There are lots

 

[SteveHeff]

It may work but it won't hurt your mash. I use it. My efficiency has gone from 68% to 72%. This is over the course of over 30 brews. Now somebody can say that perhaps I refined my process to the point where I now have better efficiency. As long as it isn't causing any horrible off flavors or issues, I'll continue to use it until my jar runs out.

 

[mchrispen]

This is the brew science forum the very place where the why and how of brewing should be discussed. This is a chat forum. People take part because they do care what they use, why they use it and what science exists to support the veracity of products' claims.

Well put. Look, nobody should be insulted because we are saying the product is crap. If you like it - use it. I used it for about 6 months because the LHBS insisted I needed it... when I started measuring mash pH - it didn't match to any single claim on the package and prevented my mash from coming down into a reasonable pH level. That said - blindly chucking gypsum or baking soda into a mash without knowing what you are doing is equally ineffective.

 

[bob1852]

I'm not an effing scientist but the product for as much as I can tell seems to work.

Seems to work, and working as advertised are two different things....

Who cares who uses it or why they use it.

I care. This forum (especially this subforum) is about helping people make better beer.

A proper mash pH and to-style levels of Ca, Cl, SO4, etc. will make MUCH better beer than tossing in 1 TBSP of "5.2."

Gypsum and CaCl are dirt cheap, and with various free water chemistry calculators out there, you can even get to a point where you don't even need to regularly use a pH meter.

 

[ajdelange]

I hate to see people do foolish things based on ignorance and/or lack of necessary information. I can explain exactly how and why this product does not and cannot work, present experimental evidence that it doesn't work, report the testimony of the manufacturer that it doesn't work and lay all that information before the group here and I have done that. Most are appreciative of the information and make the decision to use what they have left over to fertilize the blueberries. Others choose to remain blind. It is, of course, the individual's choice. Do I care whether someone wants to use it or not? No, not really. What I do care about is helping to give the readers here the information that would allow a prudent man to make the right decision. I would hope that no one would give all his money to the Scientologists though I'm aware that some people do. I'm also aware that the two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity (or is it dark matter and stupidity).

 

[zach976]

I hate to see people do foolish things based on ignorance and/or lack of necessary information. I can explain exactly how and why this product does not and cannot work, present experimental evidence that it doesn't work, report the testimony of the manufacturer that it doesn't work and lay all that information before the group here and I have done that. Most are appreciative of the information and make the decision to use what they have left over to fertilize the blueberries. Others choose to remain blind. It is, of course, the individual's choice. Do I care whether someone wants to use it or not? No, not really. What I do care about is helping to give the readers here the information that would allow a prudent man to make the right decision. I would hope that no one would give all his money to the Scientologists though I'm aware that some people do. I'm also aware that the two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity (or is it dark matter and stupidity).

I'm sorry for commenting in this forum about a product I use. I didn't expect to be attacked for it. I'll stay out of the Brew Science area from now on.