425 bbls per year ?

[Csuho]

I am glad your not gonna use the 130k burner to boil 70 gallons. I just don't see that happening.

Ya earlybirdbrew I kinda know what place he is talkin about too with that steak comment way back early in the post.

 

[pokerfreak2]

I am glad to see some positive feedback. I am very excited to be involved in it. I would love to get good ideas from this forum instead of the YOU CAN"T DO IT BS.
We have also decided to brew an IPA called Rattlesnake IPA (this ones got a real bite) (`~`)

 

[pokerfreak2]

I would think the 72oz steak comment would have given the location away, but maybe growing up in the same city just makes it obvious to me. As much as your place is a tourist attraction and I went maybe 4 times the whole 18 years I lived in the city I will stop by and have some homebrew (or brewpub brew in this case) when I come home to visit the folks. Best of luck and I hope it takes of well.

Oh and for everyone bashing his "craft" brews on tap, for that area those are actually pretty good selections. Brewing his own beer would be a huge addition to the beer scene in his city. Like I said best o luck and keep us updated. Next time I'm in town I'll stop by to say hey and see how it's going.

Great ! I look forward to seeing you there ! We are shooting for June 1, but we"ll be hard pressed to get it ready by then.

 

[kaiser423]

Get the extra fermenters.

Brew beer that you're comfortable with. In fact, start brewing them like crazy now. Know them inside and out.

Don't go off the deep end with crazy beers - keep them within reach.

Extract is fine, plastic covered with wood slats sounds like a great idea for what I'm envisioning as the location. I think the brewery will take off in what I envision as the location. Don't forget about storage of all the materials you'll need. Draw up and floor plan and stick with it. You'll probalby need some serious shelving, etc.

Best of luck.

Oh, and don't forget about fermentation temp control. It might turn into a bear in the big tanks.

As for everyone bahsing him, I can't think of a single place that's a restaurant + brewery that doesn't at least have some form of BMC on tap or in bottles. Period. They're a money maker, and in demand.

You'll probably be brewing yourself crazy in no time flat. Be warned

 

[Weizenwerks]

There's a point where it's illegal to brew on premises that are in the process to be licensed.

 

[Weizenwerks]

As for everyone bahsing him, I can't think of a single place that's a restaurant + brewery that doesn't at least have some form of BMC on tap or in bottles. Period. They're a money maker, and in demand.

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

 

[WTF_Brewing]

I'm pretty sure I know what tourist trap he's talking about. I've driven by several times on my way through, but have never had time to stop. Trying to eat the 72 ouncer is one of the things on my bucket list. Now that the place is also going to be a brew pub, come Hell or high water, I WILL stop next time I am in the area

 

[ongreystreet]

Oh, and don't forget about fermentation temp control. It might turn into a bear in the big tanks.

For real, what sort of refrigeration are you getting for your fermenters? If you assume you only cool the space your in to around 74, and want to ferment at say around 64, you'll need to cool your beer down at least 10 degrees + heat of fermentation(have no idea how much heat 80 gallons of brew creates)

Also are you brewing indoors? A 130 MBH propane burner in a commercial brewing setting will probably require a hood and a dry fire protection system. Or at least some sort of ventilation. It can also affect the existing egress. Maybe someone with some experience in this area will know.

 

[kaiser423]

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

My chevy dealer has a ton of fords in the used, beater lot. Actually, makes for a pretty apt analogy if you ask me

Look, some people ONLY drink Bud Light. I know, I work with ~6 of 'em. Good guys, like good beers actually, but at the end of the day they want a Bud Light, as cold as you can get it.

This guy is also running a restaurant. It makes absolutely no sense to alienate your *primary* customers, yes the restaurant is the primary business here, in order to try and push better beer on them. A certain percentage of pretty much any customer base likes BMC. It would be ridiculous to have the small on the side brewery push out incredibly popular beers just, well, to be beer snobs.


On the flip side, I agree with you about having light beers on tap as a transition. Heck, push 'em even, that's great. But you still need some BMC for those whom do not budge. The guy that won Sam Adam's longshot has his own pub where I live where they serve his beers. They tried to get away from some BMC, but had to put it back on tap quite simply because not having it on tap drastically hurt their sales. And this is a pretty upscale brewery/restaurant that highly advertises it's kick-ass beers. As a side note, that dude likes his maltiness way too much for my taste, and I'm not even a hop head. I have to have either his pale or an IPA because anything else is just too damned sweet! Makes sense, people in this area love slightly sweet beers. I abhor them. If they're short on the not-sweet beers, I go with a BMC just because I don't want a sweet beer, lol.

Bottom line is take care of your customers first, and evangalize second. You don't know your customers better than themselves, so actually listen to them some. If they want BMC, serve up some token BMC. I guarantee you that a place that serves a 72oz. steak has some people whom are diehard BMC drinkers.

 

[robtotten]

Eating a 72 ounce steak is one thing, but all the sides would probably get me.

 

[bja]

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

Are you serious?

Half of all beer drinkers drink nothing but BMC. That's the way it is. So you're suggesting that they just throw away 50% of their beer sales?

 

[EarlyBirdBrew]

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

Along with the other comments that about 50% or more of people being BMC drinkers I have to say that although breweries are your competition they can also be very helpful and supportive of new startups. Look at the multitudes of beers done through partnerships and collaborations. Heck, look at the brewpubs here in Austin and although they brew their own beer they still have 5-10 taps just for other local breweries. They help to promote each other and there are certain pubs that I go to because not only are the house beers good but they also have amazing selections of the "competitions" beer. It is a pretty tight knit industry and it never hurts to stay close to your competition.

 

[pokerfreak2]

For real, what sort of refrigeration are you getting for your fermenters? If you assume you only cool the space your in to around 74, and want to ferment at say around 64, you'll need to cool your beer down at least 10 degrees + heat of fermentation(have no idea how much heat 80 gallons of brew creates)

Also are you brewing indoors? A 130 MBH propane burner in a commercial brewing setting will probably require a hood and a dry fire protection system. Or at least some sort of ventilation. It can also affect the existing egress. Maybe someone with some experience in this area will know.

We have decide to put the fermentors into a refrigerated trailer that is already set up, so we can keep temps under control with no trouble. Also I mentioned that instead of direct fire burner we bought a 100 gal steam kettle and 10- 110 gal fermentors, so we are hoping to be fermenting 100 gal in each. Which will up the monthly total to appox 3000 gal.

As for the BMC debate, we will be serving 2 BL and CL. As much as I would like to eliminate them, that is not an option at this point, it may be in the years to follow....

 

[itsme6582]

Any chance you would post some of the recipes? 3000 gallons a month, that is a big number. What are the dimensions on a 100 gallon steam kettle and a 110 gallon fermentor?

 

[ongreystreet]

A steam kettle would be much better then a burner, for obvious reasons. Typical NG/LP kettles, such as a Blodgett, will still require a hood or ventilation.

 

[sweet_corn]

Just remember a refrigerated semi trailer is made to maintain temperature, not necessarily cool things. I think as long as you start with a proper fermentation temperature, you should be ok.

THanks!

 

[ongreystreet]

Just remember a refrigerated semi trailer is made to maintain temperature, not necessarily cool things. I think as long as you start with a proper fermentation temperature, you should be ok.

THanks!

Yea, ten 100 gallon batches is a lot to keep cool with a trailer, it will help keep it cooler assuming the evaporator can run at a small margin below fermentation temperature, but it's far far from any sort of temperature control. This means fermenting all beer at the same temperature regardless of style, yeast, or schedule. Not to mention using coil jackets(usually glycol) saves a lot of energy and gives a lot more control. I've never been to a brewery or brewpub using open air refrigeration for fermentation, although I have heard of it being used successfully.

Canyon, Texas has an average low of under 34 degrees for 5 months a year, what about heat control? I am sure the trailer would be insulated and sealed, but so are most modern buildings and they still require additional heat at night to maintain temperatures.

 

[weirdboy]

I would never try to run a commercial brewery operation that didn't have jacketed fermenters.

 

[pokerfreak2]

We just got back from a road trip to try 2 brewpubs out and to check out thier set-ups. One was doing partial mash/ extract brewing and the other all grain with 4 - 15 bbl serving tanks. After trying all the beers, we were very disappointed in both places, all beers had poor to no head retention, most were way over hopped and just plain FLAT, it was like they were out of Co2, but the better beers overall were made at the extract brewery. Ya go ahead and scream at me now. I was going to buy a growler to go of my favorite. I didn't by a growler to go of any of it.

About the fermenting trailer, It can maintain a temp of 40 deg. I really don't see a problem.

I just opened a chocolate bock that has only been bottled 2 weeks and it has way better head retention and WOW what flavor than anything we tried today.

 

[Weizenwerks]

My chevy dealer has a ton of fords in the used, beater lot. Actually, makes for a pretty apt analogy if you ask me

I'm talking new vehicles, not used.

This guy is also running a restaurant. It makes absolutely no sense to alienate your *primary* customers, yes the restaurant is the primary business here, in order to try and push better beer on them. A certain percentage of pretty much any customer base likes BMC. It would be ridiculous to have the small on the side brewery push out incredibly popular beers just, well, to be beer snobs.

What's the point in becoming a brewery if you are going to sell other beers? Breweries make beer and sell it for profit. BMC has no place in an establishment that brews their own beer and neither does any other beer.

On the flip side, I agree with you about having light beers on tap as a transition. Heck, push 'em even, that's great. But you still need some BMC for those whom do not budge. The guy that won Sam Adam's longshot has his own pub where I live where they serve his beers. They tried to get away from some BMC, but had to put it back on tap quite simply because not having it on tap drastically hurt their sales. And this is a pretty upscale brewery/restaurant that highly advertises it's kick-ass beers. As a side note, that dude likes his maltiness way too much for my taste, and I'm not even a hop head. I have to have either his pale or an IPA because anything else is just too damned sweet! Makes sense, people in this area love slightly sweet beers. I abhor them. If they're short on the not-sweet beers, I go with a BMC just because I don't want a sweet beer, lol.

Bottom line is take care of your customers first, and evangalize second. You don't know your customers better than themselves, so actually listen to them some. If they want BMC, serve up some token BMC. I guarantee you that a place that serves a 72oz. steak has some people whom are diehard BMC drinkers.

Sorry, competitor beers are not allowed in my establishment.

Are you serious?

Half of all beer drinkers drink nothing but BMC. That's the way it is. So you're suggesting that they just throw away 50% of their beer sales?

I don't care what other people think. You come to my brewery to drink my beer, not someone else's. People don't understand the concept of craft beer.

Along with the other comments that about 50% or more of people being BMC drinkers I have to say that although breweries are your competition they can also be very helpful and supportive of new startups. Look at the multitudes of beers done through partnerships and collaborations. Heck, look at the brewpubs here in Austin and although they brew their own beer they still have 5-10 taps just for other local breweries. They help to promote each other and there are certain pubs that I go to because not only are the house beers good but they also have amazing selections of the "competitions" beer. It is a pretty tight knit industry and it never hurts to stay close to your competition.

I don't help competition, I beat it. If competitors help each other, then it isn't competition. This is a business, not a group hug.

What the OP wants to do is fine with the OP. If it works, great.

 

[EarlyBirdBrew]

Weizenwerks, I think plenty of us get the concept of craft brewing. Also you keep saying brewery, the OP is not opening a brewery he is brewing beer to sell at an established restaurant. Therefore he can sell BMC and his brews and since it is a restaurant he can make money off of both.

I agree that if you are a brewery you should only promote your beer but I also understand a bit about marketing and sometimes working with a competitor can bring in profits too. Like I said before, there are plenty of brewpubs in austin that brew their own beer but have other beers on tap. If they didn't they wouldn't be the most popular spots in town, which to me says they are doing good business.

 

[kaiser423]

I'm talking new vehicles, not used.


What's the point in becoming a brewery if you are going to sell other beers? Breweries make beer and sell it for profit. BMC has no place in an establishment that brews their own beer and neither does any other beer.


Sorry, competitor beers are not allowed in my establishment.


I don't care what other people think. You come to my brewery to drink my beer, not someone else's. People don't understand the concept of craft beer.


I don't help competition, I beat it. If competitors help each other, then it isn't competition. This is a business, not a group hug.

What the OP wants to do is fine with the OP. If it works, great.

That's all great if beer is your main schtick. It's not in this case. It is in yours. Totally different business cases.

Yours doesn't support BMC, the OP's does, so you shouldn't serve BMC and the OP should.

Edit: Shared mug clubs are sometimes great for business. Back in my hometown, 4-5 breweries that are geographically spread out share a mug club, and it's been great since when people are in the other areas, they stop by the associate mug club brewery for the benefits rather than going elsewhere. They all found that it really helped sales, and now have some of each other's brews on tap, which has also helped.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Weizenwerks, I think plenty of us get the concept of craft brewing. Also you keep saying brewery, the OP is not opening a brewery he is brewing beer to sell at an established restaurant. Therefore he can sell BMC and his brews and since it is a restaurant he can make money off of both.

Call it what you want, but if you make beer for sale you are a brewery plain and simple. Even if a brewery is combined with a restaurant, it's still a brewery and a restaurant and should be managed as such.

I agree that if you are a brewery you should only promote your beer but I also understand a bit about marketing and sometimes working with a competitor can bring in profits too. Like I said before, there are plenty of brewpubs in austin that brew their own beer but have other beers on tap. If they didn't they wouldn't be the most popular spots in town, which to me says they are doing good business.

If you're not going to sell only the beer you make, what's the point investing in a brewery? That's stupid.

 

[itsme6582]

Jumping on someone's thread to call them stupid is, well, stupid.

 

[ongreystreet]

I think as far as the BMC debate goes, there is probably a lot of underlying politics, not being mentioned.

If you don't think brewing at a restaurant does not constitute what's labeled as a brewery, you are wrong, it's that simple. You are a restaurant and you are a brewery(especially if you are brewing something like 13k gallons a year).

Now that you are a brewery, you have competition, it's a clear and simple fact. You are competing with every restaurant, bar, pub, tavern, brewpub, distributor, and other breweries. Some of this competition may be friendly, some may not be, some may hate you. BMC will hate you. BMC makes a living trying to squash the little guy, buy the little guy, buy his shelf place, buy the distributor, buy signage in his bars, and so on. I don't have any hands on experience in the sales business, but my mother was a sales rep for a major tobacco company for over 15 years, and I now work in the grocery design field, and I know that everyday the battle lines are drawn on by major and minor brands.

Brewing your own to sell while still selling BMC is sleeping with the enemy. When you cut your order in half to sell your own, you can expect your cost for BMC to go up, and the cost for the bar down the street to go down.

 

[kaiser423]

If you're not going to sell only the beer you make, what's the point investing in a brewery? That's stupid.

Every single restaurant/brew pub I've ever been to, which is probably approaching 70-80, as far as I can recall had some BMC on premises somewhere.

These were all extremely successful businesses. Call it stupid if you want, but the vast majority of people doing something "stupid" are making money, staying open, and doing great. You can't argue with success.

Brewing your own to sell while still selling BMC is sleeping with the enemy. When you cut your order in half to sell your own, you can expect your cost for BMC to go up, and the cost for the bar down the street to go down.

Yea, this would be the big worry. But they're already selling 50% other beers, so they're not cutting the BMC order. They're actually largely cutting other half-craft brews (which, well, now that i think about it probably are owned by BMC). So, yea, this might happen to some extent.

But really, he's adding on to an existing restaurant, and you can't just make a 100% massive transition such as changing all of your beer available like you guys are suggesting. It's just not good business sense, no matter how good the replacement beer is.

 

[robtotten]

Where is Weizenwerks Brewing Company? I'd like to stop by this place and have a few pints. It's obviously a successful brew pub.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Currently relocating to Wisconsin from Michigan. We are not a brew pub, we are a brewery. We do not serve food. Beer only. Less hassle and regulations not to mention more profitable.

 

[pokerfreak2]

Ok I have had enough of the BMC debate ! Weizenwerks please don't post anything else on this thread about it ! The owner had made up his mind on this point. If you want to give me some pointers on creating a great sellable beer to convert BMC drinkers or how to get good carbination etc. that would be fine.

 

[Weizenwerks]

You're on your own from here.