425 bbls per year ?

[Mongrel]

I also want to remind everyone that this is a tourist/trap. There will be local customers also, but by far the majority will be tourists that will be there one time.

I live in a tourist area too. We live off the summers, Christmas-New Years, and long weekends. Don't underestimate how important local clientele are. You need your tourists, but your locals are just as important. If the locals aren't spending their time there, what incentive do your tourists have of stopping in?

If you can figure out how to break close to even with your locals, you're going to be in great shape. Locals menus, locals nights, etc. Build a base. Not many people get motivated to walk into an empty place and give it a try.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

The thing is, if you look at it purely from a money perspective, all grain is the way to go. I switched to all grain just a couple of months ago, and the mash tun has already more than paid for itself. Yes, it adds a little labor, but on a large scale the cost savings would be tremendous.

Trust me. I've run the numbers. On premise serving with extract brewing can be profitable. Of course AG is less expensive. Everyone knows that.

 

[Mongrel]

Trust me. I've run the numbers. On premise serving with extract brewing can be profitable. Of course AG is less expensive. Everyone knows that.

I didn't say extract couldn't be profitable, just that all grain is much more so. The restaurant business is hard enough without adding unnecessary expense.

 

[pokerfreak2]

The thing is, if you look at it purely from a money perspective, all grain is the way to go. I switched to all grain just a couple of months ago, and the mash tun has already more than paid for itself. Yes, it adds a little labor, but on a large scale the cost savings would be tremendous.

I would really like to know how much cheaper all grain would be. My figures are based on AHS bulk grain 40lb. bags @ 48.69 and bulk extract 40 lbs @ $100 and specialty grains 25 lbs @ $90. I figured one of my favorite recipes I would need:
80 lbs. Amber liquid malt extract = $200.00
32 lbs. Pale Ale malt (8 lbs left over)= $48.69
12 lbs. Crystal 60 L malt = $17.50
8 lbs. Cara Pils malt = $13.30
5 lbs. peated malt = $11.00
1 1/2 pounds hops = $ 47.84
yeast = $50.00 could wash and reuse
yeast fuel = $24.00 maybe not just make starters
Total for 80 gal = $412.33 or 362.33 reusing yeast. - yeast fuel = $338.33
80 gal is a little over 5 kegs = 67.66 per keg

How much would 80 gal cost all grain? And would that savings justify the additional expence in equipment costs.

As for kegs we have 80 saved up and got them for $20 ea. I am just worried that there might be too much yeast sediment in the bottom of them. Do you think we should filter between conical and keg ? Brite tanks are just not an option right now.

 

[pokerfreak2]

I live in a tourist area too. We live off the summers, Christmas-New Years, and long weekends. Don't underestimate how important local clientele are. You need your tourists, but your locals are just as important. If the locals aren't spending their time there, what incentive do your tourists have of stopping in?

If you can figure out how to break close to even with your locals, you're going to be in great shape. Locals menus, locals nights, etc. Build a base. Not many people get motivated to walk into an empty place and give it a try.

Empty? No this place runs 3000 people per day peak season and has for 40 years. Some local but like I say it's tourists.

 

[Mongrel]

$48.69 per 40 lb is way too much (guessing you meant 50 lb). I get 50 lb sacks for $42 retail locally. If I shop in Portland, that can go as low as $30 for 2 row, and that's still retail. You would be buying in bulk for this venture. Your cost would be even lower.

You will definitely want to reuse your yeast. Reusing yeast, and $42 2 row, my average recipe (roughly 6% and 60 IBUS) would come out to about $320 for an 80 gallon batch excluding taxes. I haven't started buying my hops in bulk yet, so this is another area for significant cost savings.

 

[weirdboy]

If you are operating a brewery, even a small one, you are going to be able to get 50# bags for less than $30 certainly, and more than likely less than half of the prices you see on AHS.

Also 1.5 pounds of hops for $48 is a rip off. As a Joe Blow consumer I can get the same amount of hops for $15-$20 depending on variety.

 

[pokerfreak2]

$48.69 per 40 lb is way too much (guessing you meant 50 lb). I get 50 lb sacks for $42 retail locally. If I shop in Portland, that can go as low as $30 for 2 row, and that's still retail. You would be buying in bulk for this venture. Your cost would be even lower.

You will definitely want to reuse your yeast. Reusing yeast, and $42 2 row, my average recipe (roughly 6% and 60 IBUS) would come out to about $320 for an 80 gallon batch excluding taxes. I haven't started buying my hops in bulk yet, so this is another area for significant cost savings.

Like I said this is based on AHS website.
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/index.php?cPath=178_21_71_425_426
I have contacted Brewers supply and requested a quote but have not heard back from them yet.

 

[pokerfreak2]

If you are operating a brewery, even a small one, you are going to be able to get 50# bags for less than $30 certainly, and more than likely less than half of the prices you see on AHS.

Also 1.5 pounds of hops for $48 is a rip off. As a Joe Blow consumer I can get the same amount of hops for $15-$20 depending on variety.

That's good news. Our costs of ingredients will be much lower than expected ! Now what do you think bulk price will be on Amber liquid malt extract?

 

[Mongrel]

All I'm saying is that you will save a good deal of money if you go all grain. I suggest building a $70 igloo mash tun for your home setup and see that it's really not that daunting. Can't hurt to give it a shot.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Also buying extract syrup is much more expensive than buying grains. If he is looking for economy, that would be the way to go.

Extract ingredients are more expensive than all grain, but uses less equipment (less cost) and is faster production. Everything has a trade off.

Why would he even put BMC on tap??? It's his bar, he can make a kick ass pale ale instead and triple your sales. If you REALLY want a BMC beer (lighter than what most homebrewers would consider a pale ale or american light ale) those recipes exist too using corn or rice. I see no reason to ALLOW BMC to compete if it's his bar!!!

Exactly. You are making money brewing and selling your beer, not someone else's. If you absolutely must, I would have only one tap be a BMC beer; with that I would go Bud Light only.

Is it? After talking with some pro's around here I was under the impression that in-house draft sales don't do much for you. Keg distribution and especially bottling are where you make your money!?

No way. You will make more profit selling retail by the glass than wholesale in any vessel. You're looking at $90-125 per half barrel at wholesale and you can sell that same half barrel by the glass and get $350-500 in sales of your own beer. Beer is a volume industry and moreso with wholesale sales. How much more work and expense do you have to sell half barrels wholesale than I do selling retail by the glass?

Well, there are a lot of variables at work, but you've got to figure that selling beer at $4 a pint direct to the consumer is going to give you the biggest gross margins. The math may work differently depending on what you have for staffing and other costs, but selling their own beer in-house is the bread and butter of most brewpubs.

Yes it is and that's the whole point of retail sales. You eliminate the wholesaler and become the retailer. Consumer direct sales is always the most profitable.

What are you going to do when someone asks you about your 'homebrew' and you have to explain how much extract syrup you put in the recipe?

What is wrong with extract? If I brew an AG weizenbier and an extract weizenbier, taste test I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference. Why do I choose extract brewing? Faster production, less equipment means less cost, less cleaning, less time for setup and cleanup. Less equipment to clean and sanitize cuts water and sanitizer use. When the time is right and space and budget allows, I will go all grain.

 

[weirdboy]

That's good news. Our costs of ingredients will be much lower than expected ! Now what do you think bulk price will be on Amber liquid malt extract?

I honestly don't know. It is usually shipped bulk in 15 gallon HDPE containers that weigh around 200 pounds, but I'm not sure about the wholesale pricing for those.

 

[trigger]

As a pet project I've been looking around and crunching numbers myself in the dreams of a similar venture (opening a brewpub from an established restaurant). What I've come up with is that a 3 BBL used setup is the way to go, but I wasn't figuring for your throughput. I really think that you should consider doing some ridealongs at some working brewpubs if possible, just to see how it goes. In the volumes you're talking I really think that you'll be heavily invested enough in labor in cleaning/transfering/mixing/etc that the step to all grain won't make too much of a difference. The initial outlay will be a lot higher, but buying used is a good option, especially since you can probably find a system that has almost everything you'll need. You should price out some used systems and see where your break even point will fall in terms of production, and then see if that's worth the risk. Keep in mind, that you've figured in ingredients, but you haven't touched on water, power (gas or electric?), taxes and fees, cleaning chemicals (you'll be CIP with a rig this big, and it's not going to be economical to top everything off with PBW then starsan), and maintenance. All of these costs will be slightly higher with going all grain than extract, simply because there's an extra vessel or two to clean, heat, and fill. Just some more thoughts.

 

[ongreystreet]

I disagree. I from Fredericksburg Tx. Home of Texas' first "brew pub". Their beer is sh!t and the rest of what they serve is BMC. They're always packed and make a ton of money. And they brew with extract.

If you're looking at it from solely a money making perspective it can be done. If you're looking at it from a craft perspective... that's a totally different story.

Your definition of brew pub is a lot different then mine. I don't know what they do in Texas, put here on the East Coast, the brew pubs I've been to don't serve anything but their own, they certainly wouldn't serve BMC. Sounds like a gimmick, maybe that's just a regional thing.

 

[Yooper]

As to the extract/AG, I know some brewpubs do use extract, simply to not have to have a "brewer" and to avoid having to buy more equipment.

As a tourist, I wouldn't even ask if the beer was extract in a brewpub. Of course, I would assume it wasn't, but it wouldn't bother me if it was. I was in the Port Aransas Brewing Company on Friday, and it didn't even occur to me.

What people DO look for though are signs of "this is a brewpub", and the first place I looked at was the bar for the brite/serving tanks! They of course have a sign hanging on them, saying what each was. I think this would be important to do, if you could anyway swing it. People will drink out of those "bling" tanks, rather than a plain ole nondescript BMC looking keg.

 

[ongreystreet]

I am not knocking extract brewing on the whole, hell I only do extract brewing.

But let's read between the lines, or read the OP for that matter, he said extract brewing for a cheap start.

Couple of things wrong with that,

First, extract ain't cheaper then all-grain, we all know it's a fact. Of course you might spend more initially on equipment to do all grain, but you are planning on brewing 13k gallons a year, so your ingredients are going to be a much larger expense compared to equipment.

Second, why start cheap and at the same time plan to make 13k gallons a year? To me craft brew is start with quality and move on to larger quantities. The first thing you say in your post is how "" you are about your partner's commitment, maybe that's the first thing you should move past before getting to far ahead of yourself.


There is also a lot of discussion of costs of materials, such as fermenters and grain bills, but how about your costs for energy, water, pumps, refrigeration, ventilation, space, extra tanks, filters, and manpower? With all that water in pipes and tanks, just the cost to cut the floor and install drains everywhere is going to cost you (sounds extreme, but if you've been to a brewery/brew pub you know what I am talking about) Insurance also!

My suggestion is to talk to the brewpub people, not the homebrew people. Unless you'd be in direct competition with another brew pub or small brewery, I don't see why they wouldn't help you out as much as they can, probably a lot more then any of us can.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I am not knocking extract brewing on the whole, hell I only do extract brewing.

But let's read between the lines, or read the OP for that matter, he said extract brewing for a cheap start.

Couple of things wrong with that,

First, extract ain't cheaper then all-grain, we all know it's a fact. Of course you might spend more initially on equipment to do all grain, but you are planning on brewing 13k gallons a year, so your ingredients are going to be a much larger expense compared to equipment.

That's what he needs to figure out. Extract is cheaper equipment, more expensive ingredients, faster brewing cycle. AG is more expensive equipment, cheaper ingredients, slower brewing cycle.

Second, why start cheap and at the same time plan to make 13k gallons a year? To me craft brew is start with quality and move on to larger quantities. The first thing you say in your post is how "" you are about your partner's commitment, maybe that's the first thing you should move past before getting to far ahead of yourself.

Well said. If you set a goal and buy to obtain that you have no room for growth. Good point about the partner. Seems like going cheap is the main limiter and that's never going to go well. Difference between frugal and cheap.

There is also a lot of discussion of costs of materials, such as fermenters and grain bills, but how about your costs for energy, water, pumps, refrigeration, ventilation, space, extra tanks, filters, and manpower? With all that water in pipes and tanks, just the cost to cut the floor and install drains everywhere is going to cost you (sounds extreme, but if you've been to a brewery/brew pub you know what I am talking about) Insurance also!

Plus with putting a brewery into an existing restaurant he's looking at a whole different dynamic of business.

OP, get a read on this site. Specifically #7. These guys know what they are talking about. Head to their home page and read about brewery projects.

http://www.soundbrew.com/small.html

 

[itsme6582]

Are we done with the all grain debate yet?

That's awesome you were able to get kegs so cheaply. I was starting to wonder whether a bright tank would be cost competetive with 6 kegs at $200. Well, it definitely isn't when the $200 kegs are only $20.

I wouldn't filter. There's only one time that I've seen a glass of yeast poured down the street. They run 2 casks. Just make sure the bartender knows not to serve a beer if it obviously doesn't look right.

 

[pokerfreak2]

Your definition of brew pub is a lot different then mine. I don't know what they do in Texas, put here on the East Coast, the brew pubs I've been to don't serve anything but their own, they certainly wouldn't serve BMC. Sounds like a gimmick, maybe that's just a regional thing.

I have been asking myself why does he want to offer home made beer and go to all the trouble of licencing making space to brew and ferment and store etc. when he is already selling alot of beer anyway with much less trouble ? And the answer is it is a GIMMICK ! I see this whole place a big gimmick ! I guess that that is why the tourists flock to it.
That being said if the owner thinks that this will add to the "experience" of this tourist trap and wants me to set up an extract brewery on the cheap, I can't resist getting involved in brewing for a well established business. I have shown him copper clad systems that would really go with the whole western motif, but he wants to go with the plastic conicals and build a barnwood barrel facad around them and make the whole thing look like a big still to save alot of $. It should look cool.
He is willing to add an addition to the building just for brewing and go with a 7-10 bbl system if this gimmick is selling.

 

[lamarguy]

I was in the Port Aransas Brewing Company on Friday, and [extract brewed beer] didn't even occur to me.

Glad to hear you survived the tasting.

I've heard from numerous folks that 90% of their extract beers are infected 100% of the time.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I have shown him copper clad systems that would really go with the whole western motif, but he wants to go with the plastic conicals and build a barnwood barrel facad around them and make the whole thing look like a big still to save alot of $. It should look cool.

I think he's focused on the appeal of a brewery without looking at the overall impact and implication. Spending all that money to make it look "cool" could have been spent on efficiency, quality, and production of quality craft beer.

He is willing to add an addition to the building just for brewing and go with a 7-10 bbl system if this gimmick is selling.

Read the link I posted above. It never works out like that. Cry once, buy right from the start, and don't have that bigger expense later down the road. You can get a used 7-10 bbl system for the price of a new 3bbl system. Sorry to say, but your friend needs a serious reality check.

 

[broadbill]

I'm just going to leave this here:

Yesterday I read that Lagunitas Brewery is a 500 barrel brewery.

This guy wants to go 425 bbl and also run a restaurant.

 

[pokerfreak2]

Broadbill, You must be drunk ! We want to make 425 bbls per year not per minute. I went to Lagunitas Brewery website those guys are and huge brewery not a brew pub.

We are doin it so I'll post every now and then to keep you up on where we are at in this project.

 

[McMalty]

i don't see a way for him to brew this much beer to supply his operation unless he already has a well established brewing operation. brewing a lot of beer is a lot of work. sounds like he's making a lot of money, why not just stick to the commercial kegs and keep his brewing to a manageable level. sounds like he's gonna have a headache otherwise....

 

[broadbill]

yup, my mistake...I mis-read. Its 550,000 not 550bbl/year:

 

[Special Hops]

Big tourist trap of a major interstate with 100s of billboards.

South of the Border?

 

[pokerfreak2]

Big tourist trap of a major interstate with 100s of billboards.

South of the Border?

No, can't say right now...
We ended up purchasing a 100 gal steam kettle and flatplate chiller and 10-110 gal conicals , while jumping through the hoops of a BP licence. I have also been building our recipes in beer-smith.

 

[McMalty]

No, can't say right now...
We ended up purchasing a 100 gal steam kettle and flatplate chiller and 10-110 gal conicals , while jumping through the hoops of a BP licence. I have also been building our recipes in beer-smith.

no....."South of the Border" is a tourist attraction on I-95 on the border of NC and SC. They sell A TON of fireworks and bad food. Since ur in tx, ur prob thought he was saying in Mexico, right? He was joking.....if u drive down I-95, you'll see about 400 billboards for this place....you almost feel obligated to stop b/c you've become so pissed off at having seen all the billboards

 

[EarlyBirdBrew]

I would think the 72oz steak comment would have given the location away, but maybe growing up in the same city just makes it obvious to me. As much as your place is a tourist attraction and I went maybe 4 times the whole 18 years I lived in the city I will stop by and have some homebrew (or brewpub brew in this case) when I come home to visit the folks. Best of luck and I hope it takes of well.

Oh and for everyone bashing his "craft" brews on tap, for that area those are actually pretty good selections. Brewing his own beer would be a huge addition to the beer scene in his city. Like I said best o luck and keep us updated. Next time I'm in town I'll stop by to say hey and see how it's going.

 

[hillhousesawdustco]

sounds like a pretty interesting idea to me, keep us posted!