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4 LHBS to choose from, 1 just took himself off the list

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Yes, they do. It depends on your merchant account. Some are flat rate, some are percentage, some are a blend, it's actually pretty complicated.

That's an understatement. This bit of info for those that don't know how this works..... When a merchant takes your card, they have absolutely no protection from a chargeback. Getting an authorization, having an AVS match, etc. are only tools to allow a merchant to decide whether to accept the transaction - it does not guarantee the transaction. If the customer issues a chargeback through their bank, it is up to the merchant to prove that the customer did in fact make the transaction.

The fact that the OP was going to use the card over the phone and have someone else pick it up leaves the merchant open to a chargeback that they absolutely cannot fight.
 
That's an understatement. This bit of info for those that don't know how this works..... When a merchant takes your card, they have absolutely no protection from a chargeback. Getting an authorization, having an AVS match, etc. are only tools to allow a merchant to decide whether to accept the transaction - it does not guarantee the transaction. If the customer issues a chargeback through their bank, it is up to the merchant to prove that the customer did in fact make the transaction.

The fact that the OP was going to use the card over the phone and have someone else pick it up leaves the merchant open to a chargeback that they absolutely cannot fight.

Fine, then tell the customer that you cannot take over the phone CC payment because of fraud/chargebacks. Lying and saying it is for a different reason will piss off customers. See above.
 
I think I'm with Revvy on this one. The OP said he got "flustered"--maybe the LHBS dude did too. Then you both got into this ****ty situation where you're arguing over 1-3 pounds of DME and no one comes out a winner. If the guy runs a good shop and is generally a good guy, is this the hill you want to die on?

When I was a kid, my dad started getting into arguments with Cable companies over their lousy service. You know what happened? We ended up with 50 channels of snow.
 
I would be extremely suspicious if someone local wanted to pay with a credit card but have their friend pick it up. Would appear the CC was stolen.
 
One of the financial reform bills that was recently passed now allows merchants to have credit card minimums.
 
Regarding stolen cards and having the friend pick up, I have done this many times as he is on my friends way home from work. I have been in the store many times.. he knows me by name and face and voice. I have phone ordered with him a dozen times with a credit card. That was not the issue here.

Just got back from picking up the DME at my buddies. Turns out he talked to him about if this happens again he would rather him pay cash as he does not LIKE credit cards.
 
No, he said charge me the 40 cents the cc company is charging you, I don't mind paying the fee. Not a "tip" and not insulting.

Maybe his credit card privileges with his bank were revoked or suspended or something and he couldn't take it and didn't want to say??

Or...maybe he just sucks at dealing with the public.

That is ridiculous. He offered to pay the costs of the CC transation. Store owner didn't like that. He then offered to buy more, as to be above a minimum purchase amount. Both are resonable solutions. The shop doesn't want his bussiness.

So how does he juggle his books, his inventory, square it with the credit company and his accountant for trying to accomodate the "tip" you were willing to give him, whether you call it a service charge or not?

This is the 21st century, every transaction has to have a trail, especially where credit comes into play. It's not like he rolls up his slevve, opens his dusty ledger, lick his pencil and put whatever price he wants in the sale column, and know at tax time what that line in the book REALLY means.

His inventory lists the price of DME at for example 5.00... he can't Just suddenly run it through for $5.40 to cover the service fee, or like you said "add a little more for your trouble," or whatever you said. So let's say he decides to take 2.00 more from you like you suggested, on top of the 40 cents. How does it square with the credit card company and the reciept? It shows that the DME is 5 bucks a pound, NOT 7.40, so someone is going to think that he is padding folks credit card bills, a nickle here or there.

How does it square with the inventory? Is his computerized, he can't just say he charged you 5 bucks for DME, and 2.40 for bottle caps that you didn't receive. His drawer isn't going to jibe with his inventory doing that. AND if he makes this a regular policy, to make all his customers happy for a couple of dollars, then he's going to spend more time adjusting his books and his inventory to accommodate these little "favors."

Like I said this is SOP in Michigan. Heck I don't know where you all live but in Metro Detroit it costs more at the pump to use our credit and debit cars that to pay for the same amount of gas with cash, I've seen it as high as 10-20 cents A GALLON.

This article in USA today explains it...and its not JUST gas stations who get hosed, it's all merchants with credit machines.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2008-07-07-gas-prices-credit-card-fees_N.htm

Credit card fees eat up gas station profits

Rising gas prices have not only punished consumers. Increasingly, they're also squeezing many gas-station owners.

As gas prices have jumped, station owners' profit margins have shrunk because they now must pay higher fees to credit card companies to process payments. Those fees are so high, says the National Association of Convenience Stores, that they've slashed already slim profit margins and made it hard for stations to make money on gas sales.

If they can't turn a profit at the pump, station owners say, they may have to ask drivers to share the financial burden — in the form of higher prices for convenience-store sundries such as drinks and candy. And some gas stations have just stopped accepting credit card payments.

In 2007, credit card fees cost convenience stores $7.6 billion — more than double the convenience store industry's profits, the National Association of Convenience Stores says. Most of the card fees come from gas sales, says spokesman Jeff Lenard.

When a driver pays for gas with a credit card, retailers must pay an average 2.5% of the sale price to process it, the association says. With gas prices exceeding $4 a gallon, business owners are paying more than 10 cents a gallon, on average, for each card transaction. That nearly consumes what the Oil Price Information Service says was station owners' average of 12 cents a gallon in gross profit over the past month.

As gas prices rise, many station owners say they've had to lower their profit margin per gallon to try to attract more customers.

Peter Madigan, executive director of the Electronic Payments Coalition, representing card companies, says, "There's a cost associated with electronic payments." Processing rates, he adds, are based on the cards' "value" to merchants as well as banks' exposure to loss if a sale is fraudulent.....

And I'm sure the LHBS is smaller in sales, especially on a daily basis, than the smallest mom and pop gas station in podunk. Don't forget, as gas prices went up, so does his costs to even get the DME to the stores for him to even have on hand for your friend to pick up for you.

I mean, we're not talking walmart here, or megamart homebrew empire (if there ever was one) we're talking more like Joe's Homebrew and bait shop....Heck my friend Todd's shop is the side room of his printing business, which he can't get rid of, as much as he'd love to just run the LHBS, it doesn't even cover the rent most of the time.

That's why I can see his side, and think most of you are over reacting, calling him a crook, or saying he's a bad business man, he's just a poor schlub trying to survive.

I have friends who own lhbs, some are no more than the closet in the back of their other business, they're not raking in the Benjamins. They do it for the love of the hobby, not because they expect a mansion on a hill when they retire.

Like I said, my first reflex then is to find out what the minimum is and buy over that amount even if it was one penny more. I would have just bought the next size bag of DME, honestly it's not like I'm not going to be making starters for years and years.

I don't think either of you maybe handled it all that well. He should have said simply "our policy is cash for purchases under x dollars is our policy, and give you the option to buy more.

*shrug*
 
Actually, if I am not wrong, isn't it illegal to set a minimum purchase amount to use a credit card?

You are not allowed to charge a card fee if that is your only accepted payment. If you accept cash or check it is ok.
 
Revvy's article points out something very important. While we all think we are getting great cash-back rewards of 1% or airline miles, we are actually paying more money for the services and goods we buy due to the credit card fees to the merchants. Money doesn't come from out of nowhere.
 
So how does he juggle his books, his inventory, square it with the credit company and his accountant for trying to accomodate the "tip" you were willing to give him, whether you call it a service charge or not?

This is the 21st century, every transaction has to have a trail, especially where credit comes into play. It's not like he rolls up his slevve, opens his dusty ledger, lick his pencil and put whatever price he wants in the sale column, and know at tax time what that line in the book REALLY means.

His inventory lists the price of DME at for example 5.00... he can't Just suddenly run it through for $5.40 to cover the service fee, or like you said "add a little more for your trouble," or whatever you said. So let's say he decides to take 2.00 more from you like you suggested, on top of the 40 cents. How does it square with the credit card company and the reciept? It shows that the DME is 5 bucks a pound, NOT 7.40, so someone is going to think that he is padding folks credit card bills, a nickle here or there.

How does it square with the inventory? Is his computerized, he can't just say he charged you 5 bucks for DME, and 2.40 for bottle caps that you didn't receive. His drawer isn't going to jibe with his inventory doing that. AND if he makes this a regular policy, to make all his customers happy for a couple of dollars, then he's going to spend more time adjusting his books and his inventory to accommodate these little "favors."

Like I said this is SOP in Michigan. Heck I don't know where you all live but in Metro Detroit it costs more at the pump to use our credit and debit cars that to pay for the same amount of gas with cash, I've seen it as high as 10-20 cents A GALLON.

This article in USA today explains it...and its not JUST cash stations who get hosed, it's all merchants with credit machines.



And I'm sure the LHBS is smaller in sales, especially on a daily basis, than the smallest mom and pop gas station in podunk. Don't forget, as gas prices went up, so does his costs to even get the DME to the stores for him to even have on hand for your friend to pick up for you.

I mean, we're not talking walmart here, or megamart homebrew empire (if there ever was one) we're talking more like Joe's Homebrew and bait shop....Heck my friend Todd's shop is the side room of his printing business, which he can't get rid of, as much as he'd love to just run the LHBS, it doesn't even cover the rent most of the time.

That's why I can see his side, and think most of you are over reacting, calling him a crook, or saying he's a bad business man, he's just a poor schlub trying to survive.

I have friends who own lhbs, some are no more than the closet in the back of their other business, they're not raking in the Benjamins. They do it for the love of the hobby, not because they expect a mansion on a hill when they retire.

Like I said, my first reflex then is to find out what the minimum is and buy over that amount even if it was one penny more. I would have just bought the next size bag of DME, honestly it's not like I'm not going to be making starters for years and years.

I don't think either of you maybe handled it all that well. He should have said simply "our policy is cash for purchases under x dollars is our policy, and give you the option to buy more.

*shrug*


Most of us are not writing a book with each response, just sayin. :p
 
Turns out he talked to him about if this happens again he would rather him pay cash as he does not LIKE credit cards.

Yeah, he probably loses money every time he runs them, EVEN if he has a 10 buck minimum. Like the article says, merchants get hosed on fees, the smaller the business worst it probably is. And I'm sure a drycleaner takes in more business than a homebrew shop.
 
Mine does the same exact thing and I hate it I never ever carry cash. I've had to run out to my car to covet parking change to pay him before He always gives me a judgmental face when I pull out my card and insists I buy more. That's why 99.9% I buy online. And I found a new store for urgency b
 
So that mean you don't have the brain capacity to read a well made argument? I didn't use TOO many multi syllabic words....:p

Man, if your brewing process is as thorough and well thought out as your responses, I REALLY need to try one of your beers :D
 
This is the 21st century, every transaction has to have a trail, especially where credit comes into play. It's not like he rolls up his slevve, opens his dusty ledger, lick his pencil and put whatever price he wants in the sale column, and know at tax time what that line in the book REALLY means.

His inventory lists the price of DME at for example 5.00... he can't Just suddenly run it through for $5.40 to cover the service fee, or like you said "add a little more for your trouble," or whatever you said. So let's say he decides to take 2.00 more from you like you suggested, on top of the 40 cents. How does it square with the credit card company and the reciept? It shows that the DME is 5 bucks a pound, NOT 7.40, so someone is going to think that he is padding folks credit card bills, a nickle here or there.

How does it square with the inventory? Is his computerized



Like I said, my first reflex then is to find out what the minimum is and buy over that amount even if it was one penny more. I would have just bought the next size bag of DME, honestly it's not like I'm not going to be making starters for years and years.


Regarding squaring transactions with CC companies, this is just requires a few more steps and is done by plenty of merchants, including myself if a customer requests a tip be charged.


And again, HE DOESNT HAVE A MINIMUM. He doesn't like credit cards. If he is losing money on every transaction then he is not charging enough.

I purchased phone orders with him for just a pack of yeast before and paid with credit card. This is a decision he made on whim and had nothing to do with minimums.

He also does not have a computer, his prices are handwritten on everything in the store.
 
I can see your point, but I wonder if you are punishing him for trying to be profitable or for being a poor communicator.
The bank charges our company a premium for nonswiped transactions so that $.40 is probably not all he's getting dinged for. On a <$5 transaction that wipes his profit out. The argument he is not charging enough doesn't hold water either because then people would be complaining about his prices. He can't win. Period. All he can do is hope to pay his bills let alone make money because he has to deal with online pricing.
Cut him some slack and understand the overhead he has to deal with to provide you the convenience of getting what you want when you want.
 
I purchased phone orders with him for just a pack of yeast before and paid with credit card. This is a decision he made on whim and had nothing to do with minimums.

Maybe all those little nickel and dime credit charges you and others have been doing have FINALLY caught up to him, and he's going broke from them. Maybe his accountant showed him the books recently and it hit him how much he is pissing away in fees. Maybe he's having personal and/or financial problems like millions of other folks, and he's hurting from it so has decided to stop doing it.

We don't know what "cross" he may be bearing right now. I doubt, if he's been doing it for you in the past, was just a stubborn, knee jerk reaction. There's probably something bigger going on......

Hell, maybe they JUST raised he fee even more. I thin Northernlad hit the nail on the head.
 
If he knows you by face and voice, and has done this before. Why wouldn't he just put it on a "tab" for the next time you come in? My local beer store has done this for me......Just sayin
 
Nah. He needs to make a policy ($0.75 charge on anything under $10 or w/e) and stick to it or expect customers to get frustrated and leave.

It is against Visa or Mastercard policy to charge extra because it is a credit card purchase. You can discount for cash but not charge extra for credit cards.

Forrest
 
I pay 1.8%V plus 20 cent per transaction for MC/Visa.
Almost 4% for American Express and 4% for paypal.
43 cents period for a debit with a pin number.

So on a $200 order:

MC/visa $3.80
Amex $7.70
Paypal $8.00
Debit 43 cents
Cash 0.00

So do merchants a favor and if you can't bring cash, run your debit card and enter the pin.

I have my cashiers run cards as debit instead of credit unless the customer objects.

If you have a business and you don't have a pin pad, it will pay for itself in a couple days.

In this instance he would have paid about 32 cents in fees. He shouldn't complain. He needs to come to the reality that we are no longer a cash based society and adjust his prices accordingly.

In Omaha there used to be a camera shop in a rich area that would charge list price for everything. But they had a 20% discount for cash. The rich people wouldn't blink and hand over the card.

Forrest
 
It is against Visa or Mastercard policy to charge extra because it is a credit card purchase. You can discount for cash but not charge extra for credit cards.

Forrest

I am sure there are exceptions to this rule. I do not know if everyone has AM/PM's where they live but they charge a fee to run cards. Certainly they are big enough to enter Visa/MC's radar if they are breaking rules.
PS, the last merchant service info I read from Visa stated that a surcharge could be added if other forms of payment were accepted, meaning that if you did not want to pay it you could pony up the cash.

As far as your charge break down, I agree. If it is under $20 it is usually better for the merchant to run as credit, over that debit.
To reiterate a statement before, I know its all cool to get a bunch of airmiles and cash back, but keep in mind your friendly LHBS is paying for all the free shyt you get. Personally I hate the jackasses who run their debits as credits because the bank gives them a share of the increased charge.
 
My LHBS prefers you use a debit card as they only get charged .75 cents compared to credit which is in the 3 dollar range. I was at a leather store and they asked me to do the same thing. I have no problems with this as I try to buy local whenever I can to keep my money local i only order off the internet if I have to. This might cost me an extra 5 bucks but meh it will all even out when the zombie Apocalypse makes TP the new currency. I will be using 5 squares when everyone else is using 1.

/i need to go to bed:tank:
 
I don't think the OP is punishing him for trying to be profitable. Seems to me it's just a matter of customer service. As I was saying before, it was $4.00. If someone is wigging out that much over a .40 cents charge then there is probably something else going on in their life much greater than that. It may come to light one day. I'd say give him another chance as everyone can have a bad day.
 
The Customer is always right. F that...not your fault.

In this instance, the customer is right. He should have said "if you paid in cash it would help me out. But if you cant it is no problem." Or not even bring it up and be happy that he is getting the business instead of one of the other three.

Forrest
 
In this instance, the customer is right. He should have said "if you paid in cash it would help me out. But if you cant it is no problem." Or not even bring it up and be happy that he is getting the business instead of one of the other three.

Forrest

Good answer. It looks to me like the OP was just trying to work out a deal they could both appreciate.

While trying to set up a CC account at work I got a peek at all of the fees that kick in at different transaction amounts and methods. From now on if the person at the counter ask Credit or Debit I just answer, "Whatever you like is fine with me!" They know what they lose less money on, and most of the time it's not a big deal to me.
 
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