4 failed 11G batches in a row...

[r8rphan]

I have brewed 4 batches in a row now, all with the same problem.. Actually, I think even more if you include the problems I was having on my old system a few years ago...

I have changed virtually 'everything' except for my fermentation chamber and my CFC chiller.. Going from a propane heated two vessel system (keggle and mash tun cooler) with 2 6.5G carboys, to a eBIAB system with EZ Boil controller based 4500 watt element, into a 15G Speidel Fermenter (in the same freezer I used as a fermentation chamber in the old system).. I also included a RO filter and base water chems (which really brought out the hops profile in the finished beer)

Every brew, I can not get to final gravity...

The first two times, I chalked it up to using old grain (unfermentables), but this last two times it is with fresh grains, hops, and yeast...

The last two beers were an American IPA, and EdWort's Haus Pale Ale...

Each time, I hit the gravity perfectly, used yeast nutrient, pumped 5 minutes of oxygen into the line at 4 LPM, and pitched 3 paks of dry yeast.. In the IPA, I used US-05, and in the Pale Ale I used Notty....

In the first batch, I determined that my refractometer was off slightly, so after accounting for that, my FG was about 5 pts off... in the second batch, the OG was 52, and the FG was @ 20 (supposed to be at 11)..

At first the first batch tasted okay, but as it conditioned, I could still taste a noticeable amount of that 'wort' flavor (unfermentables)... I just connected my hops randall to one of the kegs (with some willamette leaf hops as that and some columbus and chinook are all I had on hand, besides my home grown hops).. Hoping that will mask the off flavor..

Just put the second batch under pressure, hoping it is at least drinkable..

So, there are only two possible culprits that I can see as causing the problem.. The mash, and the fermentation chamber...

The only 'possible' issue with the chamber I can fathom, is that since the back of the speidel is touching the cooling coils, perhaps it is sending some of the yeast into dormancy or something? But if that were the case, I would think that others would have had this issue as well, and I would have heard of it...

So that leaves the mash...

Last brew, I monitored 'everything' every step of the way in as far as gravity (both with the refractometer and the hydrometer) and the temperature, both the digital temp probe at the bottom of the keggle and a glass thermometer in the top of the mash...

Here's what I noticed last time I brewed.. I set the mash temp at 152 and let the system bring it to temp.. then I mashed in my crushed grains (ran through my 3 roller crankenstein 'twice' at the finest setting)... When I put the glass thermometer in, it read 168 degrees!

This is like the ideal 'sparge temp' not mash temp... So, I did what I could to get the temps down as quickly as possible, but the top of the mash was at like 165-168 for at least 10-15 mins...

I'm thinking this 'killed' the conversion process? I did the iodine test, and it appeared to be complete conversion, but perhaps that can't account for the high mash temp?

Could this cause me to create a bunch of unfermentables that would prevent me from getting a finished beer?

At this point, all I can think of to do is to do a ten gallon batch of a LME/DME partial mash based kit, hanging the specialty grains in a bag on the side and bringing everything up to 168 from cool and then pulling the grains like I used to do in the very beginning, and then seeing if it ferments out...

If it turns out to be the problem, how to resolve? I guess I'll have to crush larger and figure out some sort of recirc process that won't get stuck?

Anyone experience this before?

This is seriously discouraging/frustrating and getting to be a huge waste of money throwing batch after batch of terrible tasting beer out...

They 'all' have that wort taste, and all have low ABV...

What to do? What to try?

(posting this in the BIAB forum too)

 

[r8rphan]

@jaybird

Need help!

 

[r8rphan]

Here's a LINK to my system build thread if you need to see the equipment in question..

 

[MR17]

Hi,

I read your post and your final gravity may be off because you are using a refractometer to read it. There are calculations that help to correct this. Basically the alcohol in the fermented beer can affect the reading.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=333712

Just a thought.
Good luck

 

[beernutz]

Do you recirculate wort past a thermocouple to give input to your ez boil controller? I am just wondering how you set a temp of 152 and ended up with 168.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Unfortunately, tagging people isn't working right now. (Unless it got fixed recently)

If your having issues hitting final gravity, it's likely not due to old grains.

I wouldn't trust the glass thermometer. If you don't have a high quality thermometer to double check the mash temp, that would be my first place to look.

Where is the temp probe placed for the fermentation chamber, and whats the temp differential set to?

 

[wes79]

Could it be your controller is off 16 degrees? Or the probe is in a bad spot? I understand that those high temps will give you a lot of unfermentable sugar, but I'm kinda new to this. Under 100 gal.

 

[TLaffey]

I use a cooler mash tun and not BIAB. And I haven't looked at your setup. Still, I hope a few thoughts might help:

* the temperature in the mash is what matters most, so calibrate your temp controller to maintain that
* your temp sensor should be downstream of your heater--but not by much. At downstream end of RIMS tube seems best.
* use an accurate thermometer. I prefer a thermapen for accuracy and speed. The glass floating thermometers I've tried are a few degrees off in the mash temp region.
* the offset from your controller sensor (rims tube) to the mash itself will change depending on flow rate. I use a flow meter and set always to 3-4LPM. Always maintain the flow rate constant to what you calibrated with. A lower flow helps with preventing sticking but also increases offset.
* IMO, overshooting mash temp is worse than undershooting. Easier to add heat than remove it. 168 is mashout temp, so I would expect to kill the enzymes in a few minutes near or above that temp.

I hope this helps.

 

[wes79]

Oh I forgot don't dump beer in the drain, it's meant to pass through the kidneys first. I've made drinkable beer by adding store bought beer, adding 4 week kit wine, and boiling 1 gal water plus your favorite hop 60 min add to taste.

 

[r8rphan]

Unfortunately, tagging people isn't working right now. (Unless it got fixed recently)

If your having issues hitting final gravity, it's likely not due to old grains.

I wouldn't trust the glass thermometer. If you don't have a high quality thermometer to double check the mash temp, that would be my first place to look.

Where is the temp probe placed for the fermentation chamber, and whats the temp differential set to?

The temp probe is in a stainless well (the kind NorCal sells for the Speidel).. In the old system I had it taped to a jar full of water sitting between the two glass carboys..

the differential is set to .3 C... basically about a half a degree...


I got pretty vigorous activity in primary... Especially with the Notty..

The old grain was over 5 years old, but I'm having the same problem with new grain, sooo....

 

[r8rphan]

Hi,

I read your post and your final gravity may be off because you are using a refractometer to read it. There are calculations that help to correct this. Basically the alcohol in the fermented beer can affect the reading.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=333712

Just a thought.
Good luck

I used a conversion table, but I also used a hydrometer... Didn't even bother with the refractometer after ferment on the second batch... Used Hydrometer only... Checked it in RO water and it is spot on..

 

[r8rphan]

Do you recirculate wort past a thermocouple to give input to your ez boil controller? I am just wondering how you set a temp of 152 and ended up with 168.

No recirculation.. I originally intended to do that, but everyone in the BIAB thread told me it was unnecessary while I was building my system... So I never did...

This is what I think is going on.. at the bottom of the keggle, the controller is keeping things at 152, but at the top, it's much higher... So I need to recirculate somehow..


I just gotta figure out how to do it without causing cavitation in the pump..

 

[r8rphan]

I use a cooler mash tun and not BIAB. And I haven't looked at your setup. Still, I hope a few thoughts might help:

* the temperature in the mash is what matters most, so calibrate your temp controller to maintain that
* your temp sensor should be downstream of your heater--but not by much. At downstream end of RIMS tube seems best.
* use an accurate thermometer. I prefer a thermapen for accuracy and speed. The glass floating thermometers I've tried are a few degrees off in the mash temp region.
* the offset from your controller sensor (rims tube) to the mash itself will change depending on flow rate. I use a flow meter and set always to 3-4LPM. Always maintain the flow rate constant to what you calibrated with. A lower flow helps with preventing sticking but also increases offset.

I don't at this time recirculate.. So, the temp probe is at the bottom of the keggle, below the heater element (it is actually integrated into the tee at the bottom of sight glass).... But I'm thinking this is the problem and I have to figure out a way to recirc, at least till mash in when I start doing near constant stirring....

* IMO, overshooting mash temp is worse than undershooting. Easier to add heat than remove it. 168 is mashout temp, so I would expect to kill the enzymes in a few minutes near or above that temp.

I hope this helps.

You just said what I was suspecting, that the rinse temp water is killing the conversion process which leads me to another question I wanted to ask..

When I first started homebrewing many years ago, I was doing the partial mash kits... They had me dissolve the LME, then hang the specialty grains in a bag on the side of the kettle, then start the boil, when the temp got to 170, I was to remove the grains and continue to the boil..

So, the grains were being taken through a 'range' of mash temps, but the LME was of course already locked in...

Can a similar approach be used with an all grain mash? IOW, mash in when my system says it's at say 140, get all the grains wet, doughballs broken up and then raise the temp to 152 or whatever the mash is supposed to be for an hour or however long it takes, without changing the profile of the mash significantly?

Or will that totally screw up the mash profile, just not as bad as I am now?

 

[r8rphan]

Oh I forgot don't dump beer in the drain, it's meant to pass through the kidneys first. I've made drinkable beer by adding store bought beer, adding 4 week kit wine, and boiling 1 gal water plus your favorite hop 60 min add to taste.

The batch I tossed, I tried to drink by mixing with lagunitas... I got through the first batch that way, but even though the second batch was better than the first, I only got about a quarter of the way through the batch before I just couldn't drink it anymore... and I needed the space in the kegerator for the new batch...

These last two batches are definitely better than the first two, and I might be able to drink the PA as it is and hop the hell out of the IPA, but I gotta fix this problem...

By the way the mouth feel and the hops profile is tasting on the IPA, I am pretty sure that once I get this 'BIG' problem solved the beer will be off the charts good...

This is definitely acting like a problem of a lot of unfermentables from the mash process...

 

[r8rphan]

I wouldn't mind adding another temperature probe to the keggle near the top, but with a BIAB, there can't be anything sticking into the keggle where the bag might catch on it and puncture it when being pulled from the wort......

Is it a big deal if I install another bung and probe near the top of the mash, but get a real short probe that doesn't actually stick into the keggle? Or will that give inaccurate readings?

 

[TLaffey]

If you don't have recirc, then direct heat might not work. I'd try doing single or maybe double infusions. Basically, add hot water and gently stir rather than heat directly. Keep everything covered to slow heat loss.

I assume you are using some kind of brewing software, but if not, there are calculators online to help you hit your mash temp. Here's one: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

 

[Turkeyshot]

Every brew, I can not get to final gravity...

The first two times, I chalked it up to using old grain (unfermentables), but this last two times it is with fresh grains, hops, and yeast...

The last two beers were an American IPA, and EdWort's Haus Pale Ale...

This is seriously discouraging/frustrating and getting to be a huge waste of money throwing batch after batch of terrible tasting beer out...

They 'all' have that wort taste, and all have low ABV...

What to do? What to try?

(posting this in the General techniques forum too)

Define terrible tasting beer. Is it because it is too malty and not hoppy. Or because it tastes like something is seriously wrong with it, like an infection or something. If you are using a refractometer for final gravity, you need to adjust because there is now alcohol in the beer.

 

[November]

Can a similar approach be used with an all grain mash? IOW, mash in when my system says it's at say 140, get all the grains wet, doughballs broken up and then raise the temp to 152 or whatever the mash is supposed to be for an hour or however long it takes, without changing the profile of the mash significantly?

Or will that totally screw up the mash profile, just not as bad as I am now?

You would essentially be doing a step mash. It will change the profile but it would depend on style as to whether or not it would be bad.

I step mash a lot and I do something similar on my electric rig. I bring it to the first step and then a bit into the step set the temp to the next step and account the time to adjust towards the individual steps.

If you aren't going to recirculate your probe may not be getting an accurate temp with the stagnant wort. You could try stirring as the temp comes up to even out the heat.

 

[r8rphan]

Define terrible tasting beer. Is it because it is too malty and not hoppy. Or because it tastes like something is seriously wrong with it, like an infection or something. If you are using a refractometer for final gravity, you need to adjust because there is now alcohol in the beer.

it tastes like if you poured 3/4 of a commercial IPA into 1/4 glass of a glass of wort...

Basically, like it din't finish fermenting... Like what the hydrometer says happened..

 

[r8rphan]

You would essentially be doing a step mash. It will change the profile but it would depend on style as to whether or not it would be bad.

I step mash a lot and I do something similar on my electric rig. I bring it to the first step and then a bit into the step set the temp to the next step and account the time to adjust towards the individual steps.

If you aren't going to recirculate your probe may not be getting an accurate temp with the stagnant wort. You could try stirring as the temp comes up to even out the heat.

""

The style I most brew is an American IPA


Do you think it would drastically affect the taste by mashing in low, and then raising the temp?


If so, what would the expected change in taste be?

 

[r8rphan]

If you don't have recirc, then direct heat might not work. I'd try doing single or maybe double infusions. Basically, add hot water and gently stir rather than heat directly. Keep everything covered to slow heat loss.

I assume you are using some kind of brewing software, but if not, there are calculators online to help you hit your mash temp. Here's one: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

BIAB doesn't work that way... You add the grains to a bag that is draped in the hot water in the boil kettle... after mash is complete, you pull the bag of grains out, squeeze them, add make up water and start the boil.... HLT, MLT, BK is all in one kettle...

I'm set up for recirc, but most everyone I've read that tries it in a BIAB has problems with pump cavitation from trying to pull the wort through the dense grain bed...


But it's obvious that I'm gonna have to figure out how to do it as my current method just isn't working... I have some ideas but they're gonna require some significant fabrication (again)...

At the very least, I guess I should recirc at full speed up till the moment I add the grains anyhow.. That much will be easy..

Dang.. Wish I had went ahead and gone that route from the beginning...

I think that if I had to do it over, I'd have started with a significantly bigger kettle, and a grain bag inside a grain basket with plenty of space on the sides so that cavitation is not an issue....... May end up there anyways...

 

[November]

No I don't think it will dramatically change it.

If it changes it, which would be slight, it would make it more fermentable, drier and less sweet. With the temps and times you are talking about, I doubt it would be even noticeable.

 

[Smellyglove]

It's late at night and I read the whole opening post, but skimmed through the rest.. So sorry If I'm beating a dead horse at any point.

you might have several culprits, not just one..

You say that your fermentor is touching the cooling coils. Get it away from the coils. Once I had a heater blowing on one of my erlenmeyer flasks with a starter in it which was done, but was left to just take it easy before I put it in the fridge. It was at some distance, not blowing from like a foot away, but further awat.. On the side which had the heater blowing on it, the yeast was in suspension. On the other side of the flask, (i could literally draw a straight line) the yeast had gone to sleep. During active fermentation there's a lot of action going on there, with movement, but it might be that it can have an impact.

Get a proper thermometer if you havent. I've had glass-thermometers which told me I'm boiling at 112 C, and others which told me i was boiling at 94C.

don't boil to hard, that might shave in a worst case scenario a few points off your attenuation, but most likely just one to two points.

Is your yeast viable? Do you use enough? Start with getting proper temp measurments from a proper thermometer, measuring at the bottom will often give you high readings unless you recirculate constantly. Measuring at the top will often give you low ones.. Get one with a long probe which you can calibrate. They are something like $8 on ebay from china, and they work perfectly fine. It's a dial thermometer, you'd find it if you look and want one. It has a 1.5" face or something like that.

If you are following kit-recipes maybe you should try to just turn down the mash-temperature a bit, every setup is different from another.

I'd look into thermometer, and that the fermentor is touching the coil first. It might be you're fermenting at a lower overall temp, and then half of the yeasies goes to sleep prematurely so they dont finish the 2-6 points which they usually do after primary fermentation, depending on yeast though.

 

[jcaggiano]

So I may be late but also do BIAB. First thing...when you bring you water to temp, are you verifying with a probe? You have some calibration to do based on your 168 vs 152 (?) setting. Always probe your water for temp before mashing in. I use LPG so i do a lot of probing before I mash in.

If you mash in at 168, I believe you are killing any enzymatic activity (the point of a mash out) which will limit your conversion. You may produce some fermentables, however, this may be what led to a false positive on your conversion test (@ 168 I believe the starches won't even be released let alone converted).

My advice would be to attempt a step mash to get the hang of your new system. Mash in in the 130's and step to a probed 150ish. This will give you a better feel for your system and also allow you to not blow past saccharification into mash out.

Bottom line of what I have learned is that if you come in low on your temps, you can still have a beautiful bodied beer by stepping up to your intended temps. If you mash in high (<164) it is very hard to recover your batch. The bright side is you can dump a ton of corn sugar in the boil and still have something drinkable. It just may not be the profile you hoped for.

Probst!

 

[DocDriza]

Are you sure that your yeast starter was large enough. I've had similar issues and a bigger yeast starter was all I needed.

 

[TLaffey]

BIAB doesn't work that way... You add the grains to a bag that is draped in the hot water in the boil kettle... after mash is complete, you pull the bag of grains out, squeeze them, add make up water and start the boil.... HLT, MLT, BK is all in one kettle...

I'm set up for recirc, but most everyone I've read that tries it in a BIAB has problems with pump cavitation from trying to pull the wort through the dense grain bed...

But it's obvious that I'm gonna have to figure out how to do it as my current method just isn't working... I have some ideas but they're gonna require some significant fabrication (again)...

Thanks for explaining BIAB a bit more. Thinking about a single vessel for everything and looking more at your build, a few further thoughts:

I think you can eliminate cavitation or starving the pump by restricting the flow. I control the flow rate to <1Gpm with a valve on the pump output and run that through a flow meter ("rotameter") on the way back to the vessel. That said, I will have to add rice hulls if I use something sticky like rye in my grist.

I looked at the EZboil and have my doubts about using that to maintain mash temp. Probably people have it working, but the problem for me is that between mash and boil both the setpoints and the mass are different. And the low flow rate I mentioned above introduces a fairly long response delay. You have a lot of heating power available so this looks like it would need a watchful eye. For the mash I would use a PID controller tuned to mashing operation. I think you can use both a PID (e.g. Auber SYL-2362) and EZboil by switching the SSR control input between the two controllers and using the EZboil only as a boil power controller.

 

[r8rphan]

So I may be late but also do BIAB. First thing...when you bring you water to temp, are you verifying with a probe? You have some calibration to do based on your 168 vs 152 (?) setting. Always probe your water for temp before mashing in. I use LPG so i do a lot of probing before I mash in.

If you mash in at 168, I believe you are killing any enzymatic activity (the point of a mash out) which will limit your conversion. You may produce some fermentables, however, this may be what led to a false positive on your conversion test (@ 168 I believe the starches won't even be released let alone converted).

My advice would be to attempt a step mash to get the hang of your new system. Mash in in the 130's and step to a probed 150ish. This will give you a better feel for your system and also allow you to not blow past saccharification into mash out.

Bottom line of what I have learned is that if you come in low on your temps, you can still have a beautiful bodied beer by stepping up to your intended temps. If you mash in high (<164) it is very hard to recover your batch. The bright side is you can dump a ton of corn sugar in the boil and still have something drinkable. It just may not be the profile you hoped for.

Probst!

Yes, this is probably what I am going to do on the next attempt... Plus full speed recirc at least up to mash in to make sure the temp is consistent throughout the whole volume of the liquid....

 

[r8rphan]

Thanks for explaining BIAB a bit more. Thinking about a single vessel for everything and looking more at your build, a few further thoughts:

I think you can eliminate cavitation or starving the pump by restricting the flow. I control the flow rate to <1Gpm with a valve on the pump output and run that through a flow meter ("rotameter") on the way back to the vessel. That said, I will have to add rice hulls if I use something sticky like rye in my grist.

I looked at the EZboil and have my doubts about using that to maintain mash temp. Probably people have it working, but the problem for me is that between mash and boil both the setpoints and the mass are different. And the low flow rate I mentioned above introduces a fairly long response delay. You have a lot of heating power available so this looks like it would need a watchful eye. For the mash I would use a PID controller tuned to mashing operation. I think you can use both a PID (e.g. Auber SYL-2362) and EZboil by switching the SSR control input between the two controllers and using the EZboil only as a boil power controller.

For most of the people having problems with this, they seem to be having the issue, even when throttling down the output of the valve..

So, what I think I am going to do, is to recirculate at full speed up until mash in.. I will mash in at a lower than target temp.. (probably 135-140), and then bring up to target temp...

I think I'm going to slip four 1/2" copper tubes on the sides of the grains bag (between the bag and the keggle sides), with the top opening just below expected liquid level with grains added (the bag goes up over the top of sides of the keggle so that bag will still filter grains out before the liquid enters the tubes), so that if the pump can't draw fast enough through the grains, then at least it won't overflow, and any rise in liquid level due to this problem, will just go in the top of the four tubes and right into the bottom of the keggle below the bottom of the bag...

I might make a COFI tube to stick down in the middle of the mash and I also have the parts to make one of those segmented tubes with the nozzles on the segments that I can use on top of the mash..

I will use a larger crush, and have DME on hand if the efficiency drops off too much...

I think I will also, slip a piece of 1/2" styrofoam beteen the fermenter and the coils in the fermentation chamber/freezer (just in case that is contributing to the problem, but I really don't think that is the issue)..

Certainly, these changes should provide better results?

In the mean time, I hooked up the existing IPA through my hops randall filled with some centennial leaf hops and that masks the wort taste perfectly.. I just don't like the centennial hops for this beer for this purpose (but honestly, that just might be because I have only drawn a couple glasses out of the keg through the randall, and maybe it will mellow out a bit after a couple more?)...

So, I have some Cascade hops I grew, picked kinda late, vaccu sealed and stored in the freezer for a couple years now, that I've been reluctant to use because I don't know what the acid content on them are... Probably a perfect use for them... If I like that taste better in the randall, then the beer will be very drinkable.. just not as good as it would have been had I not screwed up the mash...

So, I have to do a little fabricating to allow recirculation during mash, and also some experimenting to do to dial the new system in and overcome it's 'quirks'..

At some point, I may add another bung and probe farther up the keggle, but without the probe sticking in past the keggle wall.. Also need to dig out some of my old digital and analog thermometers, and possibly pick up at least one more glass one... and then spend some time calibrating 'everything'

Still working on an easy solution for squeezing the grains without having to hug it or grab it with my hands as that is a PITA, and that means I already had more fabbing to do anyways...

Wish I had known about 'brewie' before I built this second system... That looks so easy and fast, and would have cost less....

Next system upgrade, I'm going to look into what's the best reviewed automated system at the time, save up for it and just buy it outright...

 

[doug293cz]

...

I looked at the EZboil and have my doubts about using that to maintain mash temp. Probably people have it working, but the problem for me is that between mash and boil both the setpoints and the mass are different. And the low flow rate I mentioned above introduces a fairly long response delay. You have a lot of heating power available so this looks like it would need a watchful eye. For the mash I would use a PID controller tuned to mashing operation. I think you can use both a PID (e.g. Auber SYL-2362) and EZboil by switching the SSR control input between the two controllers and using the EZboil only as a boil power controller.

According to most reports, the EZBoil works great at maintaining mash temps. I think the OP's problems stem from poor temp probe placement, which is what causes the long stimulus (heat input) to response (temp increase) lag time. The lag time will be a problem no matter what type of controller is used. A PID may be able to compensate somewhat for the lag time, but you will end up with a system that responds verrrrry slowly if you want to minimize overshoots.

The solution to the problem is to put the temp sensor much closer to the heating element, so that increases in temp are sensed much sooner, so that the controller can reduce power before significant overshoots occur.

Also, if the OP is going to forgo recirculation during the mash, then the heating element should be disabled during the mash. Heating should occur only when heating the strike water, and during the boil. Getting uniform mash temp with a heater under a false bottom by stirring is a losing proposition, as you can't get much fluid flow below the false bottom. If you want to be able to heat during the mash with a false bottom, you need to recirculate.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

According to most reports, the EZBoil works great at maintaining mash temps. I think the OP's problems stem from poor temp probe placement, which is what causes the long stimulus (heat input) to response (temp increase) lag time. The lag time will be a problem no matter what type of controller is used. A PID may be able to compensate somewhat for the lag time, but you will end up with a system that responds verrrrry slowly if you want to minimize overshoots.

The solution to the problem is to put the temp sensor much closer to the heating element, so that increases in temp are sensed much sooner, so that the controller can reduce power before significant overshoots occur.

Also, if the OP is going to forgo recirculation during the mash, then the heating element should be disabled during the mash. Heating should occur only when heating the strike water, and during the boil. Getting uniform mash temp with a heater under a false bottom by stirring is a losing proposition, as you can't get much fluid flow below the false bottom. If you want to be able to heat during the mash with a false bottom, you need to recirculate.

Brew on

Learning the hard way... The only way I learn anything..

 

[Bigfly]

Raider Doing the COFI thing would not be that hard or expensive. I copied this design https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543873&page=10 But I drilled a hole in the lid of my pot and injected close to the center of bag. After a couple of batches I had Arborfab build me a custom basket. Now I watch the basket to make sure the wort flows through the basket not over the top by adjusting pump output accordingly. I use an Avantco induction heater and have to manually watch the temps and adjust heat input. I have built 2 wort injectors out of 1/2" copper so far with different hole arrangements and will be building more. I average about 78% efficiency and use a .032 crush on the grain. Good luck and good brewing

 

[applescrap]

The word is passive, man i love that word. You either mash passively or actively. I believe in passive mashing and i will stand by that imo. I have heard the Australian inventor of biab (yes the inventor) talk and he passively mashes. So do most the guys at biabinfo. We all know the famous bobrews and he mashes passively, brulosophy has tested mash temps, and they, with debate hardly matter. Dont get me wrong im not against recirculation, i just think its unnecessary, imo, and imo not in the spirit of biab at least according to the inventor, who feels this process was meant to be easy and uncomplicated.


I mash in at 168, of course i do. The temp of the grain brings the mash down. Thats my strike temp. I stir the s..t out of it for 3 minutes or whatever and stick a handheld digi in the top middle. I dont use my pid probe, another debate! It says 152, i cover pot with big down jacket (unnecessary) and come back 45 minutes later. Stick probe in top and 150ish. Stir for 5 maybe ten minutes more and pull sac without a wenchs help . Doug was right, if you heat the bottom you must recirculate. All this fixing and configuring is not for me. Most biab brewers use a process similar to what i described. We heat the water, put the bag on, and let it sit. Something else must be going on. Best of luck.

 

[r8rphan]

I mash in at 168, of course i do. The temp of the grain brings the mash down. Thats my strike temp. I stir the s..t out of it for 3 minutes or whatever and stick a handheld digi in the top middle. I dont use my pid probe, another debate! It says 152, i cover pot with big down jacket (unnecessary) and come back 45 minutes later. Stick probe in top and 150ish. Stir for 5 maybe ten minutes more and pull sac without a wenchs help . Doug was right, if you heat the bottom you must recirculate. All this fixing and configuring is not for me. Most biab brewers use a process similar to what i described. We heat the water, put the bag on, and let it sit. Something else must be going on. Best of luck.

You're not understanding.. 168 was my temperature 'after' mash in.... I turned off the heater power and stirred for a good 10-15 minutes just to get it down under 160...

So I am getting striation of 16 degrees from the bottom of the kettle where the probe is to the top of the kettle where the top of the mash was...

Once I finished mash in and stirred the crap out of it, the probe (at the bottom of the keggle) was reading near 168 too..

 

[jekeane]

I run a 3 vessel eherms I found that in order to hit my initial mash temps I was having to strike hotter in this system to account for pump and tubing heat loss. The first few beers I like doughed in around 165° to get down to 152° once I started my pumps back up. Those beers were consistently under attenuated. I switched to doughing in a lot closer to my desired mash temp and then allowing the herms to bring me up to proper temps ofer a couple of minutes and my under attenuation issues stopped.

May be something to consider if you haven't.

 

[r8rphan]

I run a 3 vessel eherms I found that in order to hit my initial mash temps I was having to strike hotter in this system to account for pump and tubing heat loss. The first few beers I like doughed in around 165° to get down to 152° once I started my pumps back up. Those beers were consistently under attenuated. I switched to doughing in a lot closer to my desired mash temp and then allowing the herms to bring me up to proper temps ofer a couple of minutes and my under attenuation issues stopped.

May be something to consider if you haven't.

I'm having the opposite problem... or maybe you're saying the same thing?

In any event, I plan to try recirc (since I have all the stuff for it anyways) through the entire process, and will mash in low and raise the temp while recirculating...

 

[lschiavo]

I didn't read the whole thread but I cant help but worry that you are not getting accurate temp readings. What are you measuring your strike temp with?

 

[applescrap]

You're not understanding.. 168 was my temperature 'after' mash in.... I turned off the heater power and stirred for a good 10-15 minutes just to get it down under 160...

So I am getting striation of 16 degrees from the bottom of the kettle where the probe is to the top of the kettle where the top of the mash was...

Once I finished mash in and stirred the crap out of it, the probe (at the bottom of the keggle) was reading near 168 too..

Still no, imo. my buddy, and I am sure many more here, have let a mash rise. my buddy leaves a little heat under his kettle and i am sure it gets hot at the bottom. Plus i know he has let a mash rise. The only affect comes from his, at times, questionable recipes.

 

[jekeane]

Here's what I noticed last time I brewed.. I set the mash temp at 152 and let the system bring it to temp.. then I mashed in my crushed grains (ran through my 3 roller crankenstein 'twice' at the finest setting)... When I put the glass thermometer in, it read 168 degrees!

This is like the ideal 'sparge temp' not mash temp... So, I did what I could to get the temps down as quickly as possible, but the top of the mash was at like 165-168 for at least 10-15 mins.

So you are doughing in at or below 152° and trying to let your system bring you back up to 152° but because of something, possibly cavitation under the bag you are returning 168° wort to the top of the mash?

If that is the right problem it seems like easiest solution would be moving your pid to the return valve right before the wort enters the kettle. That way your controller shouldn't be letting the wort get to anything above your mash temperature.

In my system the Mash probe is in a T on the Wort out of the mash tun. That probe will read 10° cooler than the wort on the top of my grain bed for several minutes until the returned wort has raised the whole bed temperature.

In a herms setup you make sure the return temperature stays at or below mash by regulating the HLT probe.

For your setup it sounds like you need to consider probe placement and possibly stir more frequently help disburse the return wort.

I did a fair amount of biab but never bothered with recirculation so I may be off base here.

 

[doug293cz]

So you are doughing in at or below 152° and trying to let your system bring you back up to 152° but because of something, possibly cavitation under the bag you are returning 168° wort to the top of the mash?

If that is the right problem it seems like easiest solution would be moving your pid to the return valve right before the wort enters the kettle. That way your controller shouldn't be letting the wort get to anything above your mash temperature.

In my system the Mash probe is in a T on the Wort out of the mash tun. That probe will read 10° cooler than the wort on the top of my grain bed for several minutes until the returned wort has raised the whole bed temperature.

In a herms setup you make sure the return temperature stays at or below mash by regulating the HLT probe.

For your setup it sounds like you need to consider probe placement and possibly stir more frequently help disburse the return wort.

I did a fair amount of biab but never bothered with recirculation so I may be off base here.

No, in a RIMS or element in MLT system, you want the PID temp probe located where the wort will be the hottest, which will be right next to the heating element. This is to prevent overheating the wort, and to minimize the time lag between actual temp changes and when they are sensed by the probe. Time lags in sensing lead to temp overshoot. The longer the lag, the bigger the overshoot. So, for a RIMS you want the temp sensor right at the tip of the heating element at the exit end of the RIMS tube. For an element in the bottom of an MLT, you want the temp probe as close as you can get it to the element, preferably between the element and the outlet port to the recirc pump. You are still likely to have a temp delta between the PID sense probe, and the bulk mash. For that reason you need the capability to determine what the typical delta is, and then offset your temp setpoint in the PID by that amount. This is similar to what brewers with HERMS have to do.

Brew on

 

[jekeane]

No, in a RIMS or element in MLT system, you want the PID temp probe located where the wort will be the hottest, which will be right next to the heating element. This is to prevent overheating the wort, and to minimize the time lag between actual temp changes and when they are sensed by the probe. Time lags in sensing lead to temp overshoot. The longer the lag, the bigger the overshoot. So, for a RIMS you want the temp sensor right at the tip of the heating element at the exit end of the RIMS tube. For an element in the bottom of an MLT, you want the temp probe as close as you can get it to the element, preferably between the element and the outlet port to the recirc pump. You are still likely to have a temp delta between the PID sense probe, and the bulk mash. For that reason you need the capability to determine what the typical delta is, and then offset your temp setpoint in the PID by that amount. This is similar to what brewers with HERMS have to do.

Brew on

Brew on

So then if his probe is located in the correct spot and his return is way over his setpoint of 152° is his setup just broken?