3rd runnings?

[r8rphan]

I was reading in "Designing Great Beers" this morning on how to determine and hit your target gravity using GU calculations..

At the end of the chapter, it started describing how you can get fancy and get two different gravity beers from the same mash (What is similar to what I've come to understand is 'partygyle' brewing)...

Anyways, they said if you came up short on your target GUs, you could remedy the situation by either A) making less beer (brewing longer), or B) adding some extract..

I'm wondering, could you not just do an additional rinse of the mash? If so, how much more (in the terms of GUs) can you expect to get from an additional rinsing (infusion?)?

Obviously, you can't give specific GU numbers as an answer to this question, as it would depend on the amount and type of grains, but I'd think that it might be possible to give a general 'percentage' of GUs as compared to the original mash and batch rinse...

I mean, if I'm sitting there and find out that my wort is too weak, and I don't have any extract handy, I'd hate to have to resolve myself to less beer... and if there's too much water in the wort too get the GUs I need, I can always boil longer until it's all what it's supposed to be...

How much more can be extracted on an additional infusion?

 

[r8rphan]

Additionally, say you had to run so much water through to get the desired GU's from your mash, that the batch is too big for your boil pot...

Could you then boil down part of the wort, and then add in the rest? Then once the total is brought to a boil, starting your hop schedule?

 

[weirdboy]

Unless you are making a very high gravity beer, by the time you get to third runnings you aren't getting a lot of sugars from the grain, but you are adding a lot more liquid to your wort. If your goal is to have more fermentable content in your wort I would have to imagine you are not going to be very successful with that strategy because you will carmelize at least some of those sugars as you boil for so long.


That said I have seen third runnings make a perfectly acceptable session beer in the 3-4% ABV range, when the original batch was a high gravity one.

 

[r8rphan]

Okay.. so this is getting more unlikely, but I'll throw another option out there to see if it sticks..

What if instead of boiling down and combining the three runnings, a person were to take the first two, and brew with them, and transfer them to the fermenters.. then take the third running, boil it down and add it to the fermenters?...

The first boil would have all the hops in with the grain during the boil, and the second boil would be just long enough to sterilize and get the desired volume/gravity.... This should prevent carmelization, I would think....

But it's looking more and more like I better budget to have some DME on hand in the future.. just to be ready for such a situation..

Corn sugar can be used too, right? We're talking about the same stuff that is used for priming? I'm starting to get quite the collection of little bags of that stuff that came with the kits, but I never used because I keg instead of bottle..

If I were to use corn sugar to bump up the GU's of a brew, what do I buy in the store? Is it just labeled 'corn sugar?'... Is corn syrup the same thing?

 

[Nikkimaija]

Corn sugar is usually labeled dextrose. I think mine says "Dextrose (Corn Sugar)" on it. It just comes in a 5lb bulk bag from my local natural foods store that also stocks brewing supplies. I don't think most groceries carry it. If all you want is an ABV bump, regular old table sugar works too. Some say it has off flavors, others can't tell at all. It will dry out your brew and change its character, as will corn sugar...so having some DME around is great, IMHO. And if you never use it for batches where you miss your gravity, you can always brew up a little batch of something when you feel like it on the spur of the moment, or use it for yeast starters. I used up all my leftovers this week on a batch of a sahti juniper beer!

 

[billvon]

1) If you oversparge you'll extract tannins. I did that once. Not good. You get a foul tasting thin beer.

2) If you oversparge your gravity will go down steeply and you'll have to boil a lot to get back to the gravity you want.

3) If you want to mix batches in the fermentor you will probably be better off hopping the lowest gravity batch in the kettle; better utilization.

>and the second boil would be just long enough to sterilize and get the desired
>volume/gravity

The second boil will likely be longer if you want to get gravity up. You'll also caramelize less because there will be less sugar in the second boil.

 

[oldschool]

+ 1 to previous post. You should check the gravity of your runoff. When it drops to 1.012 then stop collecting wort. At 1.012 the pH is likely to rise above 6, increasing the likelihood that malt tannins, lipids, and silicates will be leached into it. Malt tannins give an astringent taste and are harsher flavored than hop tannins. They are more soluble and not a readily precipitated in the boil kettle. This info is from Noonan's Brewing Lager beer

 

[r8rphan]

These last few posts are 'really' packed with useful info.. keep it coming!

I'm getting a sort of, "yes you can do it, but be extra careful" sort of feel to this...

BTW, what's the difference between the corn sugar that comes to me in my beer kits, and the corn syrup that I see in the market for sprucing up my pancakes?

 

[Yooper]

These last few posts are 'really' packed with useful info.. keep it coming!

I'm getting a sort of, "yes you can do it, but be extra careful" sort of feel to this...

BTW, what's the difference between the corn sugar that comes to me in my beer kits, and the corn syrup that I see in the market for sprucing up my pancakes?

Corn syrup tends to have other ingredients added, and tends to be the "high fructose" variety.

 

[r8rphan]

Corn syrup tends to have other ingredients added, and tends to be the "high fructose" variety.

Fructose is the same kind as is found in fruit right? Is that bad? People are adding fruit to their beers, so how is this different? Or is it not different, but bad anyways? Or maybe it's not bad/good.. just what it is?

 

[Fletch78]

If your third runnings are still getting 1.020 into the kettle, is there still a tannin worry?