3rd Ruined Batch. Please help...

[snow16]

Hi everyone,

Long-time lurker, first-time poster here. Thanks to everyone for all of the great information and advice that I’ve gotten from this site in the past years.

I’ve been brewing on and off for about 12 years. I’ve brewed both extract and all-grain, but generally stick to partial mashing due to space/time contraints. I’m far from pro, but I’ve made some great beers in the past. I moved to Japan about a year and a half ago and I just can’t seem to brew beers of the same quality here. My last 3 batches were completely infected and I’m at the end of my brewing rope.

Long story short, my beer smells and tastes like a doctor’s office next to a band-aid factory. The first beer, a Wee Heavy, went two weeks in primary smelling and tasting wonderful before it went south. Band-aids. The second, a hoppy American brown ale, spent a month in primary and tasted great until after bottling. Two weeks in the bottle I tasted one – band-aids. The third, an American IPA, spent 3 days in primary before I stuck my nose right up to the airlock. Pure, unmistakable, band-aids.

So of course I’m thinking it’s either chlorine/chloramines in my brewing water, or wild yeast – but it’s doesn’t seem that simple. After the Wee Heavy went off, I decided to change brewing water (even though I’ve brewed OK beers with that tap water before) and be even more fastidious with sanitation. For the brown ale, I sourced my water from a mountain river (a local sake brewery uses the same water) and boiled it for 30 mins the day before brew day to be safe. The beer tasted AWESOME until I tasted the first bottle. For the IPA, I used the same river water and, 3 days in the primary, horrible.

To me, all arrows point to wild yeast – but my beers don’t over-attenuate. I used Nottingham, SO-4 and SO-5, respectively, and they all finish up well within their ranges. I’m totally stumped and frustrated. All plastic brewing equipment is in the trash.

Sorry for writing a book here, but has anyone experienced anything like this?

 

[schokie]

Are you saying that your primary samples and samples at bottling are great, but they're bad after bottling and carbonation?

What's your sanitation process?

 

[uncleleon]

Start from the beginning. Don't trust tap water. You will brew great beers again.

 

[Cyclman]

From More Beer:

Medicinal

Tastes/Smells Like:
Cough syrup, mouthwash, Band-Aid™, smoke, clove-like (spicy)
Possible Causes:
A variety of different phenols are almost always the cause for medicinal flavors in beer.
Phenols can cause solvent, astringent, plastic and medicinal flavors. Medicinal-tasting
phenols are usually brought out during mashing and/or sparging and are caused by
incorrect pH levels, water amounts and temperatures. Using chlorine or iodine-based
sanitizers improperly can bring out Chlorophenols. Yeast also produces phenols, and
a clove-like characteristic is deliberate in some ale, especially Hefeweizen and other
wheat beers.
How to Avoid:
Follow proper mashing and sparging techniques and always follow the specific
directions for different sanitizers. Taking the same precautions to avoid Chlorophenols
and astringency should help to wipe out the chances of medicinal flavors. Always use
the proper yeast for the style of beer being brewed.

I would use bottled spring water to see if that fixes it. Can you get or are you using StarSan (one less variable).

I would do some one gallon batches until you figure out what is the issue- throwing away a gallon isn't so painful

 

[snow16]

Thanks so much for the quick replies.

schokie, samples from the second batch tasted fine during its 3 weeks in primary, but tasted foul after two weeks in the bottle. The first batch tasted medicinal after 2 weeks in the primary and I had to toss it. The third batch has been in the primary for 3 days and the entire room where I keep it smells like plastic.

I've always thought my sanitation was pretty top-notch, but I guess there's always room for improvement. Anything that has caked-on stuff I soak in a strong bleach bleach solution prior to a THOROUGH rinse in hot water and a soak in star-san of at least 5 minutes or so. When the first batch tasted funny, I immediately thought it must be the water. Now that I realize it's probably a yeast issue, there are things that I would go back and change in my sanitation regime if only I could (boiling the bottling spigot, for example). As it stands now, I'm planning on replacing all plastic equipment, including air-locks.

What puzzles me is that everything I've read about wild yeast suggests that it is super attenuative and doesn't leave a clear beer. Whatever this is does neither of those things.

I never chalked it up to be my mashing, but I doubt that's the case as my first beer to go bad was nearly all extract with just a few steeped specialty grains. Whatever it is, it's very puzzling and incredibly frustrating - especially because here in Japan my only other option is Asahi 'Super Dry'.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

This is a total shot in the dark, but what about the water you're boiling your priming sugar in. Band-aid phenols are often caused by chlorine or chloramines, and chloramines are much harder to be rid of. Since you used the sake-river water for brewing, that shouldn't be the source, and since you say you thoroughly rinse, that shouldn't be the source, so what about the water you use for priming?

 

[snow16]

Definitely a good thought, but I use the same river water for boiling priming sugar.

I'm heading home to the States for Christmas and I'm bringing samples of both my tap water and the river water to send off to Ward Labs to be analyzed. At least that way I can know for sure that my water sources are either safe, or not.

 

[FatDragon]

Where are your ingredients coming from now versus when you brewed in the States? I'm in China and it's hard to get the same brands you would know from the States, so much of my stuff is locally-sourced. I started brewing here so I don't have much to compare to, but if you started with Briess and Weyermann and now you're using Local Maltster A that could have a lot to do with it.

Same for sanitation - if you used to use Starsan and now you're stuck with local pharmacy iodaphor, you might be messing up your sanitation and getting infections in the bottle or fermenter...

 

[snow16]

FatDragon - in terms of general beer quality I think you're definitely right. I have a great deal of trouble consistently sourcing ingredients here, and it certainly plays into overall beer quality and consistency. Brewing here is a challenge, for sure.

 

[schokie]

Are you removing the caked on stuff completely prior to sanitizing? Soaking in bleach and rinsing with hot water might not be enough. Try PBW, oxyclean, or something similar.

Does this happen with all batches, or just the all grain or partial mash ones?

I used to have the same problem. I was using older yeast, not making a starter, and not controlling fermentation temps closely. I know, I sound like an awful person. It took time to manifest itself, so usually right around packaging time. Once I corrected all three that problem went away. The biggest fix was temp control.

 

[Darwin18]

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/Beer_faults.pdf

Band-Aid (phenolic) is either an infection, poor yeast health, or fermenting at too high of temperature.

 

[m00ps]

The one time I got a bandaids flavor was from unhealthy yeast and temperature swings during fermentation. Have you tried making starters or pitching multiple packs (if you are limited to dry yeast only)

 

[soccerdad]

What are the ferm temps?

 

[snow16]

I think you're right, bleach and hot water may just not be doing it. I'll have to get some PBW or something when I'm in the States.

schokie so far it's happened with two partial mashes and an extract w/steeping grains batch. I don't have the room over here for all grain (yet), unfortunately.

For the first batch, I did use two packages of Nottingham that was on the older side. In retrospect that was probably a bad decision. I've heard of old yeast doing funky stuff, but can it actually spoil a beer outright? Could it even have been the source of this wild yeast somehow that's spoiled my last 3 beers?! I mean, these beers had more than 'off flavors', for sure. For the other two beers, I used two new packets each of SO-4 and SO-5, rehydrated.

Schokie did you have beers go crazy band-aid on you using older yeast? I have an aquarium heater/rubbermaid trash can fermentation chamber that keeps temps really well, so I'm pretty sure that's not the issue.

This whole issue has made me rethink my sanitation regime in general. Looking back, I now see things that I need to change, whether that was the source of this particular problem or not.

 

[snow16]

Wow, thanks for all the great replies.

I guess it really could have been that old Nottingham that let some crazy yeasties lose and got this whole thing started.

 

[snow16]

Ferm temps between 62-65

 

[jbaysurfer]

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/Beer_faults.pdf

Band-Aid (phenolic) is either an infection, poor yeast health, or fermenting at too high of temperature.

Correct. But he also said "Dr's office next to a Bandaid factory". Could be Chlorophenolics he's tasting and that would be explained by what appears to be considerable use of bleach in his cleaning regimen; (from the same link):

Medicinal (chlorophenolic)
Chloroseptic, medicine cabinet
Avoid water with chlorine or chloramines (use RO water if necessary). Avoid bleach sanitizers. Reduce
astringency/grain husk sources. Avoid excessive whole hop use. Check for infection.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think you're right, bleach and hot water may just not be doing it. I'll have to get some PBW or something when I'm in the States.
[...]
This whole issue has made me rethink my sanitation regime in general. Looking back, I now see things that I need to change, whether that was the source of this particular problem or not.

You can compound homemade PBW from 70% Sodium Percarbonate, sold as Oxyclean Free or one of many generic Oxy___ brands in the US, and 30% Sodium Metasilicate (TSP is the major brand in the US). The free part here means no fragrance, so don't get caught for unintended shoplifting.

PBW also has a little Sodium EDTA in it and perhaps some other sequestering agent, but you can ignore those, really.

I use a lot of regular washing soda, sodium carbonate, for equipment cleaning too. It is like Oxyclean but without the "Oxygen," which you really don't need in many cases. After Oxyclean depletes its oxygen, sodium carbonate is left over.

PBW solutions can be captured, stored, and reused although the Oxygen component will be depleted by then. It still makes a great cleaner.

If you can get Starsan for sanitizing you're in good company. Or Iodophor or IO-Star as a good second choice.

 

[snow16]

Great I'll look into either purchasing or making my own 'PBW'. Maybe the bleach just isn't doing it.

As far as the bleach itself as a cause for the band-aid flavors, I've been using bleach in some capacity or another since I first started brewing and never had problems. I rinse very, very well with the hottest water my tap has to offer, and follow that up with a good soak in star-san.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Great I'll look into either purchasing or making my own 'PBW'. Maybe the bleach just isn't doing it.

As far as the bleach itself as a cause for the band-aid flavors, I've been using bleach in some capacity or another since I first started brewing and never had problems. I rinse very, very well with the hottest water my tap has to offer, and follow that up with a good soak in star-san.

It's your call. It's an easy variable to control, and its symptoms (as described in my post) sound an awful like what you're experiencing. But again..your call. Good luck to ya!

Edit upon rereading the OP to get more information:
You started off thinking it's chlorine in your water, but you're using chlorine in your regimen. Just a thought.

 

[FatDragon]

Great I'll look into either purchasing or making my own 'PBW'. Maybe the bleach just isn't doing it.

As far as the bleach itself as a cause for the band-aid flavors, I've been using bleach in some capacity or another since I first started brewing and never had problems. I rinse very, very well with the hottest water my tap has to offer, and follow that up with a good soak in star-san.

I buy half-liter bottles of medical iodophor for about $1.60 here in China. Figure out how to say "Iodine" or "Iodophor" in Japanese, run by a pharmacy, and you should be good. I don't know if there's technically a difference between medical and food and beverage iodophor, but I've used it for about 20 brews so far and no infections or off-flavors yet. Hot water rinse and short soak after use, short iodophor soak before use, no infections or off flavors yet.

 

[snow16]

You do make a good point. I'll rid of all chlorine.

 

[IslandLizard]

It's quite a puzzle.

If you rinsed all your equipment well after using bleach, there can't be more than only a trace left, unless your fermenters soaked it up. Your sake river water is fresh and untainted, hopefully. No source of bleach in that. Your yeasts are dry so no infection can enter unless you do something weird to it.

Is there a way Iodine, Bromine or Chlorine (halogens) can enter your beer at some point. They can all be responsible for Doctor's office smell. So can higher alcohols from fermenting too warm, particularly during the first few days to a week.

How's the grain? Where do you source it? Can that possibly contain some of those halogens? If so, they will end up in your wort, and beer, soon after fermentation starts. Chlorophenols give band-aid like flavors and have a very low taste threshold. But yeast can throw off weird flavors too, very noticeable in green beer. They condition out over time.

Do you get a good rolling boil for an hour? Boiling off about a gallon?

I would suggest to add a whole Campden tablet to the wort in the kettle right after adding the last runnings, but before you start the boil, in order to decimate those halogens if any are left in there.

 

[snow16]

That's a bunch of awesome info, IslandLizard. Much appreciated. Didn't know any of that about iodine, bromine or halogens.

I always get a really good rolling boil for at least an hour, so I don't think that could have anything to do with it.

I source the grain from an online retailer called Advanced Brewing here in Japan. Despite being incredibly slow, I've never found any issues with quality or freshness of grains and other ingredients. Most of their grains are either Simpsons, Weyermann or Briess.

I was so frustrated when I opened the first bottle of Brown Ale and it tasted crappy that I almost chucked it all - but I stopped myself. If this conditions out over time I'd be thrilled, but I'm not holding my breath.

Just ordered some Campden tablets too, so I'll have those ready to go for next time, whatever I decide to do.

 

[IslandLizard]

That's a bunch of awesome info, IslandLizard. Much appreciated. Didn't know any of that about iodine, bromine or halogens.

I always get a really good rolling boil for at least an hour, so I don't think that could have anything to do with it.

I source the grain from an online retailer called Advanced Brewing here in Japan. Despite being incredibly slow, I've never found any issues with quality or freshness of grains and other ingredients. Most of their grains are either Simpsons, Weyermann or Briess.

I was so frustrated when I opened the first bottle of Brown Ale and it tasted crappy that I almost chucked it all - but I stopped myself. If this conditions out over time I'd be thrilled, but I'm not holding my breath.

Just ordered some Campden tablets too, so I'll have those ready to go for next time, whatever I decide to do.

OK, your grain should be good then. I thought it may be malted locally and something suspicious had entered the process. You need to review every ingredient and step in the brewing process.

Eliminate using Chlorine (bleach) anywhere in your brewing chain. If using Iodophor or Iodine for sanitation, please note, the equipment needs to be rinsed off well before use.

Since it's probably the purest, I'd use the Sake river water, and taste it on the spot. It should not taste or smell like anything and certainly not chlorine. You can pour some in a clean glass, leave some head space. Cover over night with a saucer, then smell and taste the next morning. Again it should not taste or smell medicinal at all.

Just to be sure, treat all your brewing water with 1/4 finely crushed Campden tablet per 5 gallons before you heat it. Just stir it for a minute. Any Chlorine will be purged.

What do you use for a mash tun? Is there any noxious plastic in there?

Do not use plastic (PVC) hoses to transfer hot wort, only heat resistant silicone. We haven't mentioned this yet.

What kind of fermentors are you using? Are they food grade plastic? Only use "Type 1 or 2."
Clean your equipment and fermentors with washing soda, "Oxiclean," or PBW/homemade if you can get the ingredients. Rinse well and sanitize. If you're not using Starsan or some other no-rinse sanitizer, rinse well before use.

Rehydrate your yeast, fill your fermentors, oxygenate wort, pitch, and close up. Your old airlocks should be fine, they're clear plastic right?

Did we forget or overlook anything?

 

[snow16]

I've only done partial mashes here in Japan thus far, so I've just been mashing in my brew pot. No noxious plastics in the process. I've been fermenting in an Ale Pail (for 2 out of 3 bad beers), but I don't like fermenting in those things and recently got a 6 gallon Better Bottle. No PVC tubing in use for hot wort.

While on vacation I'm going to review my whole process and implement some of the things that everyone's been suggesting. This site has been a great help and I hope I figure this out soon. It's frustrating, but on the positive side I've probably learned more about brewing science in the past few weeks than I have in the past 12 years.

At least there'll be good beer to drink while in the States for Christmas. Any great new beers I may have missed being overseas for the past year and a half? I'll be in Connecticut.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I wouldn't rule out water treatment occurring before you get the water. Champaign, IL (a municipality about 20minutes south of me) draws its drinking water out of the Mahomet Aquifer. It's supposed to be some of the best drinking water in the world, and yet, they treat with chloramine. You may have fancy pants sake river water, but that doesn't mean no one is treating it before it goes into your kettle.

 

[snow16]

I can tell you there's nothing fancy pants about the beer I've been brewing lately so I'm not ruling anything out!

Getting both water sources tested.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] For the brown ale, I sourced my water from a mountain river (a local sake brewery uses the same water) and boiled it for 30 mins the day before brew day to be safe. The beer tasted AWESOME until I tasted the first bottle. For the IPA, I used the same river water and, 3 days in the primary, horrible. [...]

I wouldn't rule out water treatment occurring before you get the water. Champaign, IL (a municipality about 20minutes south of me) draws its drinking water out of the Mahomet Aquifer. It's supposed to be some of the best drinking water in the world, and yet, they treat with chloramine. You may have fancy pants sake river water, but that doesn't mean no one is treating it before it goes into your kettle.

I think the OP filled jugs directly from the river, not bought from a store with a fancy "Sake River" label on it.

River water can be truly awseome... if nothing bad enters upstream. Now river water will change with the seasons, even overnight after rain storms, and contains a large variety of minerals and other chemicals, but unlikely chlorine or chloramines, unless a factory upstream disposes of it into the river.

And true, the Sake brewery may treat that water to bring it to their specs. All soda plants RO local water.

 

[IslandLizard]

Just for comparison, a few days ago someone opened a similar thread about tenacious band-aid, plasticky flavors in all his beer.

As it turns out he used "distilled water" from Walmart, sold in gallon (?) jugs. I asked him if he ever tasted any of that water, and low and behold, the water was laced with chlorine or chloramines. Probably added for stability or to keep sanitary while sitting on a shelf until the next snow storm or hurricane... so much for "distilled" water!

 

[brewmeister69]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you say your location is :

Fukushima City, Fukushima, JAPAN

One of the worlds worst nuclear disasters happened in the very city on 11 March 2011 resulting in a meltdown of three of the plant's six nuclear reactors..

If you really are living in that city , I'd hazard a guess and say your water may be contaminated..

If I were you I would be putting a Geiger counter on my brew just to check it's not hot with radioactive particles ...

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

Hey Snow,

There is a very active Japan homebrewing community.

We have a thread here.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f234/home-brewing-japan-350223/index70.html

We also have a facebook group here
https://www.facebook.com/groups/409167752562778/

Maybe we can help you out with any Japan specific issues.

 

[snow16]

brewmeister69 - I don't take that comment the wrong way at all. I appreciate the thought. All I'll say on that subject is that although what happened here a few years ago was absolutely horrible, Fukushima is far from the nuclear wasteland that the media would have the world believe. There's a lot of work to be done here in many coastal areas, but generally speaking, most towns and cities throughout Fukushima have background radiation levels below the naturally occurring background radiation levels of many populous places throughout the world

I don't doubt that there are some sort of radioactive particles in my brewing water (probably everyone's brewing water, for that matter) - but I've never worried about them and I highly doubt that they are responsible for my medicinal off-flavors.

CB in Tokyo, thanks so much for the heads-up on the Japan home brewing community. I had no idea there were so many homebrewers here in Japan. I'll check out the thread and join the Facebook page.

Still waiting for the results of the water tests...

 

[fredthecat]

Hi, Im an expat homebrewer in korea. It took me a long time to get back to about 95% of the quality of beer I could make in north america. Here's my advice

1. Depending on where you get your yeast from it may be in very poor shape. it sat around too long or experienced temp fluctuation.
2. Use 100% bottled water with salts added and see if the taste disappears.
3. Don't use plastic equipment. I used glass in north america and switched to PET high quality jugs here intended for alcohol-still ended up tasting weird to me somehow.
4. check ALL of your ingredients. maybe take the leap to all-grain. I found out the DME i was using was actually made for the food industry or something, not specifically for brewing. Since I stopped using it I got rid of some quality issues.