3500W, 4500W or 5500W

[The Pol]

If you are boiling 7.5 gallons down to 5 gallons and do not have a PID, which one would best suit this need?


I should be able to get my wort boiling from 155F after the sparge in about 20 minutes with a 3500W element, 15 minutes with 4500W and 12 minutes with 5500W. I am just thinking that without a PID and all that junk, I will be looking at too much heat with 4500W and up if I am not controlling the duty cycle.

 

[slimer]

I would wait and get the PID process worked out before you commit.

 

[CodeRage]

Im a little confused. A PID isnt going to help you much when it comes to boiling wort. I mean if you set it to 212 deg either two things are going to happen depending on the controller, you are either going to get very little boiling or you are going to eventually get 100% duty cycle any how. For a boil kettle I wouldnt even bother with a PID. Just turn it on and forget it. Now I am not sure if you have to worry about scorching using a hotter element. Considering a 5500 and 7500 element are roughly the same size so you will have a higher wattage to surface are ratio on the 7500. I would try a 5500 and see how yah like it. If you want a shorter boil time and risk scorching a batch use the 7500. Its only 20 bucks for another element and make a cheap batch to test with.

Edit- You have a 50 Amp 220V circuit to use a 7500 W element?

 

[slimer]

Actually an arduino board is cheap and will maintain your duty cycle if you have the program correct.

 

[Jaybird]

If your talking a real PID Loop I guess I am not sure why you need that type of control on a boil kettle, I mean your talking phase angle and in rush control. All you need is a johnson control and a relay. Thats all I use (sort of) on my HLT. I would go with the biggest one you have power for.
Cheers
JJ

 

[The Pol]

Well, I am either going to use 3500W or 4500W. I am adding a separate breaker and circuit in my garage for this application, so I am setting it up for 240V and 30A. 3500W will easily boil the wort... so will 4500W. I am ONLY going to use low to ultra low density elements.

I only brew 5 gallon batches, so 3500W will DEFINATELY boil the heck outta that. I have boiled water in my HLT with 1500W.

 

[lustreking]

Have you considered heat sticks? I experimented a little over the weekend, and 3000 combined watts brought 6.5 gallons of water (starting at 170 degrees) to a nice boil in under 15 minutes. I'm thinking about building two 120v, 1500 watt low density heat sticks, using both to get the boil, and then turning the one off after I reach the boil.

I like the heat stick idea because I won't have to run a 240 v circuit, come up with a controller to throttle a 240 volt element, or probably most importantly, modify my current kettle. If I mounted a 240 volt element in it, I would no longer be able to use it on a propane burner if I wanted to.

 

[The Pol]

I want a clean install... that is why I am planning to insert the heating element into the keg. I may just run a 4500W and see how that goes, may get a 3500W and see how that works out. I will initially set it up to run at 100%, maybe down the road do the whole duty cycle thing, but I dont know if it will be necessary.
I will be building a control panel for my mixer, HLT, pump and BK... to make it cleaner and easier to manage. I have 6 kegs of beer on hand, so I have time and $$ to toss into another upgrade on my rig.

 

[Gregredic]

Has anyone used the guts out of a stove to control temp manually, kind of like what a PID (or potentiometer for lack of a better way to put it) would do?

 

[CodeRage]

The oven element control? They don't throttle temperature. When you set the temp it heats up to that temp and then turns off, then back on after a set hysteriesis. Plus I dont think they are designed to handle that kind of wattage.

I have a 4500w in mine with 5 gallon batches and dont have any issues. It is tantamount to turning the gas up REALLY high on a burner. I run low density elements on mine and haven't had issues. Though I am not very sure if it makes a difference. Common sense would suggest it though

 

[The Pol]

Edit- You have a 50 Amp 220V circuit to use a 7500 W element?

Who ever mentioned a 7500W element? I am talking about using 3500W OR 4500W... I have never even heard of a 7500W element.

 

[CodeRage]

Uhm.... I just rounded up?...

I have no idea where I got that number, some how it got stuck in my head. Swmbo was probably yammerin while I was reading/replying.

 

[The Pol]

NP... I will be working on how to set up my elements for a while. I have a couple months before I need to brew anything again.

 

[MoRoToRiUm]

Keep us posted Pol! I've been debating modifying my kettle, but with doing extract brews, I think I might just go with the heat stick method so I don't have to worry about extract searing on the bottom....

 

[donaldson]

When I electrified my brew kettle, I used a 3000w heating element. I only had two choice - it was either 3000w or 4500w (pictures are in my gallery). I just felt that the 4500w element was over kill (though I did worry that the 3000w won't be enough.

Pol, I do 5 gallon batches. I collect about 7 gallons of wort and manage to bring it to a boil within 20 minutes or so with the lid on. Once it comes to a boil I place the lid about 1/2 on. If I leave the lid on, I get messy boil overs for sure.

Even at 3000w, I finally built a little variable timer that cycles the element on and off through a SSR - I can go from all on to about a 50% duty cycle. The timer's very easy to build if you have some basic soldering skills - I can post the pdf of the circuit board, if you interested.

Also - check out "CD's New Electric Wort Boiler" - I can PM you the link if you want it, though googlings probably easier. I got most of my ideas from his boiler as I was building mine.

 

[keiths]

I use a 4500 w Ultra low in all my kegs and I do 10 gal batches , 90 min boils and start with 13 1/2 gal and end up with 11 1/2 of wort always hit my target SG. And Boil is Boil 212.

 

[bull8042]

I have never even heard of a 7500W element.

I was considering using this in my HLT

12-0003 - Heater Element, 7.2kw, EM-1000

but have since decided to go this route

http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Heat-Element55KW-Side-Coil-pn-20-3017-P6085C201.aspx

 

[caskconditioned]

I'm also in the process of converting parts of my brewery to electricity. Obviously my first task is to get 240 into the spare garage etc. I plan on using the BCS-460 control board eventually (I currently use a PID for my HERMS). But my two cents: go w/ the 4500 and figure out a way to regulate it (duty cycle etc). Why? You now have the option of brewing 10 gallon batches. There may be a day you want to do a larger batch and you are g2g now. With just a little more effort and money you have future-proofed your brewery.

 

[IrregularPulse]

I use a 4500 w Ultra low in all my kegs and I do 10 gal batches , 90 min boils and start with 13 1/2 gal and end up with 11 1/2 of wort always hit my target SG. And Boil is Boil 212.

How long does it take you to get to a boil? I am thinking of going this route as well in the near future. I am assuming 220V

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Here is a spreadsheet to calculate your boil/heat times.

 

[kappclark]

Following this thread ...

I would like to go all-electric at some point in the future ...

currently in $$ bind, and want to do it right the first time .. (DUH)

a video would be very cool .. GOOD luck with this POL..

 

[keiths]

How long does it take you to get to a boil? I am thinking of going this route as well in the near future. I am assuming 220V

Starting from the mash temps at around 150+ it only takes around 20min +,-
Yes 220v

 

[Gregredic]

I am wanting to go all electric keggle, but the only stumbling block I have is the PID. Anyone care to share what brand/model they are using?

 

[BrewBeemer]

If you are boiling 7.5 gallons down to 5 gallons and do not have a PID, which one would best suit this need?


I should be able to get my wort boiling from 155F after the sparge in about 20 minutes with a 3500W element, 15 minutes with 4500W and 12 minutes with 5500W. I am just thinking that without a PID and all that junk, I will be looking at too much heat with 4500W and up if I am not controlling the duty cycle.

I can't believe what I just read above Pol, "I am just thinking that without a PID and all that junk".

You planning on standing by during your brewing session flipping a two pole (not Pol) switch on and off manually more often with a higher wattage element used as your heating control system?
This sounds way backwards to me. A temp probe wired to a PID signaling a SSR sending power to the element is a simple and accurate way to control
temps. No offenses intended or applied to the best of my knowledge in this reply to your above reply.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Here is a spreadsheet to calculate your boil/heat times.

lrr81765; is there another way to get that calculated speadsheet posted as it does not open on my computer. All I get is a gray blank screen when I open.
I would like to see it and add to my brewing information department.
Thanks.

 

[lustreking]

lrr81765; is there another way to get that calculated speadsheet posted as it does not open on my computer. All I get is a gray blank screen when I open.
I would like to see it and add to my brewing information department.
Thanks.

Right Click -> Save Link (target) As

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

I am wanting to go all electric keggle, but the only stumbling block I have is the PID. Anyone care to share what brand/model they are using?

Ok, to start with, if you are going to have an eKeggle, let's assume that you are going to make the logical step to some other device as well ( electric HLT, HERMS,RIMS,etc) .

This is where you would use a PID. Top brands include a this one from Auber Instruments. You will also need a thermocouple and SSR. Just get the 40amp + heat sink.

The PID uses an algorithm/Dutycycle switch to determine when to apply power. This should keep your temperature +/- 1-2*F.

In the boil, this becomes irrelevant. You could leave a 5500w element at full on a 5 gal boil, and the temp will never get about 212. I would NOT RECOMMEND THIS as you will experience that yummy burnt beer flavor.

So, on a boil kettle, you need two things. On startup, you need to bring the wort to a boil quickly. This is full power. Then once it is at boiling, you need to reduce the power to what it takes to maintain the boil. Exactly what you do on the kitchen stove.

To do this, you need either
1. a big ass rheostat ( Pol found one for $77 ),
2. a timer control circuit wired to the SSR with a variable input.
3. a microprocessor with custom code.
4. That 2-pole switch that beemer alluded to

#2 can be made for less than $10 by anyone that can solder components on a board. If you can't ( or like some Senior members, they *appear* much closer than they used to (eg. glasses) ), I think that some homebrew and a little searching could find you someone to do it. Try the geek at RadioShack.

As with all my recommendations, safety first. GFI circuits & ground that keggle!

 

[IrregularPulse]

Try the geek at RadioShack.

Sorry to pick this one line from your whole post, but I don't think radioshack is what it used to be. No geeks at mine. Just teenagers texting on cell phones while trying to sell cell phones. You ask for a component.."um.. we sell phones", nevermind I'll find it in the 1 drawer of electronics you guys still carry.
Wouldn't be bad if you lived somewhere with another option, but the closest store to me is still 40 minutes away.

 

[The Pol]

I think I have finally broken down and come to face the fact that I will be looking at a few months of building on my HERMS, again. I have 6 full kegs, so I am okay on supply. Basically I want to build a control panel for switching my HLT heater, stirrer, March pump and controling an E-keggle. I want it to look cool, but also be simple, like the rest of my system.

#1. If I am running 240V to my brew stand via a GFCI circuit breaker... once I run that into my control panel, can I step it down to 120V for my HLT element and March pump etc? Of course this would be after running it through some sort of terminal block to split it up to my PID and different heating elements in my system as well. OR do I have to run 120 and 240 into my box?

#2. Where have some of you been buying your control panel components? High AMP switches etc? I know that different places sell different things, but I would like to find a place where I can get MOST of my components for simplicity sake.

#3. I have the installing of the element figured out after reading many different methods on how to successfully do so. I do brew 5 gallon batches, boiling 7.5 gallons. Of course, I this will be easy to convert to 10 gallon batches at some point as elements are cheap, and upgrading them will cost $30 max. I plan to install (1) at this time... 6500W which will be plenty to reach a quick boil now, and simpler than installing (2) and controlling them.

#4. In a boil kettle, is it necessary to run a thermocouple? The wort will only reach 212F (corrected for pressure)... is the PID on Ebay no capable of simply running a duty cycle? I would LOVE to have a controller that I can simply program to run at 50%, 60%, 70%, 100% etc... I dont see the point of the thermocoupler unless that is the only way that the PID will operate.

#5. I will be powering this by a dedicated breaker in my electical box in my garage... My home is new and has 200A service, I have 6 open slots and plan to install a 40A double breaker to accomplish this. I will more than likely run power to my box with some sort of a dryer pigtail that is plugged into the 240V outlet on the wall adjacent to my breaker box. Again, can I run my 120v equipment via a transformer with this 240V? Where do I find one?

 

[The Pol]

Talk to me about timer control circuits... I can solder... so, where do I get a parts list to look at, instructions etc. I see the 40A SSR is $20 and so is the heat sink, I think... that part I understand. If I can build something that will control a duty cycle, that is aweome, I do not NEED to have a PID for temp reasons in the BK... but I need to control duty cycle in a variable manner.