3-in-1 "Boil Kettle, Jacketed Chiller, Conical Fermenter" by Brewha

[hgearle]

I usually condition my grain (about 3.2 ounces of water mist sprayed per 10 pounds of grain), run thru my electric 200 rpm mill after 10 minutes; use 1 pound of rice hulls per 10 pounds of grain (usually 3 pounds as my grain bill is about 33 lbs for an 11 gallon batch), and my flow rate is very good. I don't see any benefit to using a bag, as it seems to me (in my humble experience), that the bag is the same as the colander. I use the second false bottom that limulus suggested, and have never had a problem with circulation. Many of you have brewed many more batches than I, but this is my experience.

Secondly. Is squeezing the grain bag a good idea???... I read that you can squeeze hop bags to get the liquid out of them, but you should NOT squeeze grain bags.
Per Mr Wizard from BYO magazine: "By squeezing the grain bag more trub and cloudy wort is moved into the wort. This is why gently rinsing the bag with hot water is suggested instead of squeezing; it also extracts more of the good stuff from the grain bag. An argument could also be made that squeezing the grain bag may also extract more polyphenols from the specialty malts. I am not sure that this actually happens, but it is another reason not to squeeze the bag. You can also end up with some small malt particles in the wort if your mechanical method is too aggressive. https://byo.com/all-grain-brewing/item/1924-squeezing-grain-bags-mr-wizard

 

[limulus]

I usually condition my grain (about 3.2 ounces of water mist sprayed per 10 pounds of grain), run thru my electric 200 rpm mill after 10 minutes; use 1 pound of rice hulls per 10 pounds of grain (usually 3 pounds as my grain bill is about 33 lbs for an 11 gallon batch), and my flow rate is very good. I don't see any benefit to using a bag, as it seems to me (in my humble experience), that the bag is the same as the colander. I use the second false bottom that limulus suggested, and have never had a problem with circulation. Many of you have brewed many more batches than I, but this is my experience.

Secondly. Is squeezing the grain bag a good idea???... I read that you can squeeze hop bags to get the liquid out of them, but you should NOT squeeze grain bags.
Per Mr Wizard from BYO magazine: "By squeezing the grain bag more trub and cloudy wort is moved into the wort. This is why gently rinsing the bag with hot water is suggested instead of squeezing; it also extracts more of the good stuff from the grain bag. An argument could also be made that squeezing the grain bag may also extract more polyphenols from the specialty malts. I am not sure that this actually happens, but it is another reason not to squeeze the bag. You can also end up with some small malt particles in the wort if your mechanical method is too aggressive. https://byo.com/all-grain-brewing/item/1924-squeezing-grain-bags-mr-wizard

I have had better results since I started using that false bottom too. But I think the point of eliminating the colander is to get the grain deeper into the system leaving less of a gap between the bottom of the colander and the element. That reduces the chance of running the element dry. Especially for 5gal batches in the medium BIAC.

 

[limulus]

Here it is if anyone is interested. It fits right into the colander and helps eliminate clogging of the perforated colander bottom:
https://www.homebrewing.org/SS-Pico-Style-False-Bottom-bottom-only-No-Feet_p_4587.html

 

[mdime]

Secondly. Is squeezing the grain bag a good idea???... I read that you can squeeze hop bags to get the liquid out of them, but you should NOT squeeze grain bags.

That only applies to extract brewing when you are merely soaking a bag of specialty grains for flavor and color. With a true BIAB mash it is standard practice to squeeze the grain bag.

 

[NHBrews]

Thanks all for the great ideas on using false bottoms/bags.

Thanks. I had to replace my element a couple of years ago because it ran dry. The one I bought was all stainless and the same wattage but a little shorter and I also bent is downward a bit. ?

Any special method to bend the heating element without damaging? Would like to do this with mine so I can brew 5gal batches with my old BIAB bag and a false bottom.

 

[hgearle]

Thanks all for the great ideas on using false bottoms/bags.

Any special method to bend the heating element without damaging? Would like to do this with mine so I can brew 5gal batches with my old BIAB bag and a false bottom.

Nathan told me when I bought my BIAC to simply reach into the kettle and push down on the heating element to bend it. It won't bend very far (less than and inch I think) with the heating element provided by Nathan, but limulus' aftermarket heating element is shorter which may be better for clearance on the side of the BIAC.

 

[mdime]

Any special method to bend the heating element without damaging?

I clamped mine between two pieces of wood right where I wanted the bend to be then just bent it. I did a little at a time and checked the fit in the BIAC before proceeding with more.

 

[xico]

Here it is if anyone is interested. It fits right into the colander and helps eliminate clogging of the perforated colander bottom:
https://www.homebrewing.org/SS-Pico-Style-False-Bottom-bottom-only-No-Feet_p_4587.html

Thanks for this suggestion, that link is the exact unit that fits to our colander? Sometimes the mill runs the grain a little too much for my liking (milled by a brewmate) and I'd like the extra protection.

Can I ask, is getting rid of any gap between the grains and the element purely to avoid the element running dry?

 

[limulus]

Nathan told me when I bought my BIAC to simply reach into the kettle and push down on the heating element to bend it. It won't bend very far (less than and inch I think) with the heating element provided by Nathan, but limulus' aftermarket heating element is shorter which may be better for clearance on the side of the BIAC.

I clamped mine between two pieces of wood right where I wanted the bend to be then just bent it. I did a little at a time and checked the fit in the BIAC before proceeding with more.

I got my new one from Bobby M at Brew Hardware. He is a long time forum member.
https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1902.htm

 

[limulus]

Thanks for this suggestion, that link is the exact unit that fits to our colander? Sometimes the mill runs the grain a little too much for my liking (milled by a brewmate) and I'd like the extra protection.

Can I ask, is getting rid of any gap between the grains and the element purely to avoid the element running dry?

This fits into the bottom of the colander. The other method that Mdime is now using eliminates the colander. He is using a false bottom that sits above the element and allows a bag to sit on top of the false bottom. That is designed to eliminate the gap between the bottom of the colander and the element. It would definitely help prevent running an element dry.

 

[Jimmy82]

Anyone looking to buy a BREWHA mash colander for their medium BIAC? I've got one that I'm looking to sell.

This is now sold!

 

[xico]

Secondly. Is squeezing the grain bag a good idea???... I read that you can squeeze hop bags to get the liquid out of them, but you should NOT squeeze grain bags.[/url]

I am not fond of squeezing grains, despite it being common practice. I stray from practices of many other commercial brewers and I wouldn't expect it to be any different in the homebrewing community. When I'm done with my mash my sightglass is crystal clear (assuming no dark malts), and I fly sparge avoiding the grains from becoming disturbed. I don't care for the cloudiness of the product when the grain bed is pressed.

On a personal level, if I feel the need to squeeze my grist it means I am making too small a batch.

 

[hgearle]

So I guess I would like some feedback as to how you all are brewing in the BIAC. For my hoppy IPA's, I usually do a 11 gallon batch with about 33 pounds of grain and 18.25 gallons of water adding 3 lbs of rice hulls (Efficiency is only about 61%).

My mash is usually 1 hour (power 27%) and I stir about 3 times (15 minute intervals), then set the temp controller to 40% and raise the temp to 170F to mash out. It takes about 12 minutes to get to 170F and I let it stay there 10 minutes. I then raise the colander to so the mash drains into the kettle, increase the flow on the pump to keep the wort a few inches above the grain bed, and sparge for 20-30 minutes.

As the kettle is draining after the sparge, I turn the pump off and raise the temp on the controller to 195F with power 100%. So now the mash tun is draining and the temp on the wort is increasing towards the boil. Once it hits 195F, I roll the BIAC out the door of my basement to boil outside.

Does this sound somewhat like what you all do when brewing with the BIAC?

Is anybody adding the crystal/dark malts at the end of the mash, during the sparge rather than including them in the full mash?

I attended the BYO brew camp this month and had a full day class with Chris White, founder of White Labs, for a yeast class. There were two big take aways for me. One...we need to use a zinc enhancer for our yeast like his Servomyces for yeast health. Yea...I know what you are thinking...he wants to sell more of this, but I also took a full day class with Aston Lewis, aka the BYO Mr. Wizard, and he said the same thing. We are not adding enough zinc to our fermentation's, even with yeast nutrient.

Secondly, Dr White said that we are way under aerating out wort before pitching our yeast (and it is very difficult to over aerate he said) and said that you should aerate for 2 minutes with 100% Oxygen for a 5 gallon batch and 4 minutes for a 10 gallon batch. I have been doing 1:30 with 100% O2 for an 11 gallon batch which is too little.

Any how, I know there is a lot of experienced BIAC brewers out there and would like to know what you think. Thanks.

 

[limulus]

Hey guys, I don't know if anyone has seen this or not, so I'll post it. I was watching a youtube video about the Spike Brewing conical. The guy showed a gas manifold that fits the 1.5" port. It is inexpensive and I think can be used with a BIAC to (CAREFULLY) transfer under pressure. I have had very good success transferring by gravity but would prefer pressure. I abandoned the transfer hose that came with mine the first time I used it but maybe this will change that.
https://spikebrewing.com/collections/conical-accessories/products/gas-manifold

This is the YT Vid I watched: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GV9zPixtbA[/ame]

 

[mdime]

I've been using the ball-valve post and pressure relief valve that Nathan sells to do pressure transfers for the past two years. In fact, I go a step further than this video by purging the keg with CO2 and keeping the lid on during transfers, using the keg valve for pressure relief.

Personally, I wouldn't use this Spike part without a calibrated pressure relief in the other port.

 

[JB_Brewing2]

So I guess I would like some feedback as to how you all are brewing in the BIAC. For my hoppy IPA's, I usually do a 11 gallon batch with about 33 pounds of grain and 18.25 gallons of water adding 3 lbs of rice hulls (Efficiency is only about 61%).

My mash is usually 1 hour (power 27%) and I stir about 3 times (15 minute intervals), then set the temp controller to 40% and raise the temp to 170F to mash out. It takes about 12 minutes to get to 170F and I let it stay there 10 minutes. I then raise the colander to so the mash drains into the kettle, increase the flow on the pump to keep the wort a few inches above the grain bed, and sparge for 20-30 minutes.

As the kettle is draining after the sparge, I turn the pump off and raise the temp on the controller to 195F with power 100%. So now the mash tun is draining and the temp on the wort is increasing towards the boil. Once it hits 195F, I roll the BIAC out the door of my basement to boil outside.

Does this sound somewhat like what you all do when brewing with the BIAC?

Is anybody adding the crystal/dark malts at the end of the mash, during the sparge rather than including them in the full mash?

I attended the BYO brew camp this month and had a full day class with Chris White, founder of White Labs, for a yeast class. There were two big take aways for me. One...we need to use a zinc enhancer for our yeast like his Servomyces for yeast health. Yea...I know what you are thinking...he wants to sell more of this, but I also took a full day class with Aston Lewis, aka the BYO Mr. Wizard, and he said the same thing. We are not adding enough zinc to our fermentation's, even with yeast nutrient.

Secondly, Dr White said that we are way under aerating out wort before pitching our yeast (and it is very difficult to over aerate he said) and said that you should aerate for 2 minutes with 100% Oxygen for a 5 gallon batch and 4 minutes for a 10 gallon batch. I have been doing 1:30 with 100% O2 for an 11 gallon batch which is too little.

Any how, I know there is a lot of experienced BIAC brewers out there and would like to know what you think. Thanks.

My brew day is pretty similar.

Often I have a second person helping pour the grain into the colander; one to pour, the other to stir during the pour. This method really reduces the potential for dough balls to form. Some immediate stirring occurs once the pour is done but that is the only time I stir the mash. No rice hulls used. More and more I've been brewing 15 gallon batches so my grain bill is somewhat greater than your 11 gallon recipe. Mash for an hour without disturbing it then (after raising the colander) open the bottom valve to empty sediment from the mash in order to avoid a clogged pump. Attach the pump to the bottom valve and sparge until clear. A couple gallons or so of hot water is added to completely rinse the grain bed for the 15 gallon recipes. Boil for an hour and follow hop additions schedule. Similar temps as the OP throughout.

I've read a few posts here that note an issue with the colander. I'm curious as to what the issue is. Is it the crush? Additional stirring? I've not had an issue with the ales I primarily brew and I've had great efficiency and great beer.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

I've been brewing on my BIAC for almost 2 years now, so I'll respond inline with my experiences.

So I guess I would like some feedback as to how you all are brewing in the BIAC. For my hoppy IPA's, I usually do a 11 gallon batch with about 33 pounds of grain and 18.25 gallons of water adding 3 lbs of rice hulls (Efficiency is only about 61%).

I've never used rice hulls and I usually get around 75% mash efficiency.

My mash is usually 1 hour (power 27%) and I stir about 3 times (15 minute intervals), then set the temp controller to 40% and raise the temp to 170F to mash out. It takes about 12 minutes to get to 170F and I let it stay there 10 minutes. I then raise the colander to so the mash drains into the kettle, increase the flow on the pump to keep the wort a few inches above the grain bed, and sparge for 20-30 minutes.

I also mash for an hour, stirring only at the beginning of the mash. Your controller powers are comparable to mine at the given times of the mash. I let the mash rest for about 10 minutes after doughing in, then I slowly recirculate for the remainder of the mash. I typically do not sparge, and I don't recirculate any wort after lifting the mash basket.

As the kettle is draining after the sparge, I turn the pump off and raise the temp on the controller to 195F with power 100%. So now the mash tun is draining and the temp on the wort is increasing towards the boil. Once it hits 195F, I roll the BIAC out the door of my basement to boil outside.

Same here, although I have a vent fan that I like to use if the weather is nasty out.

Does this sound somewhat like what you all do when brewing with the BIAC?

Is anybody adding the crystal/dark malts at the end of the mash, during the sparge rather than including them in the full mash?

I sometimes add dark malts in the last 10 minutes of the mash, but crystal malts have always been added for the full duration.

I attended the BYO brew camp this month and had a full day class with Chris White, founder of White Labs, for a yeast class. There were two big take aways for me. One...we need to use a zinc enhancer for our yeast like his Servomyces for yeast health. Yea...I know what you are thinking...he wants to sell more of this, but I also took a full day class with Aston Lewis, aka the BYO Mr. Wizard, and he said the same thing. We are not adding enough zinc to our fermentation's, even with yeast nutrient.

Secondly, Dr White said that we are way under aerating out wort before pitching our yeast (and it is very difficult to over aerate he said) and said that you should aerate for 2 minutes with 100% Oxygen for a 5 gallon batch and 4 minutes for a 10 gallon batch. I have been doing 1:30 with 100% O2 for an 11 gallon batch which is too little.

Any how, I know there is a lot of experienced BIAC brewers out there and would like to know what you think. Thanks.

I can't make any comment on the zinc other than I use the Wyeast nutrient and have never had issues with incomplete fermentation. I agree with the oxygenation piece, although without a flow meter on the O2 just timing the flow can give inconsistent results. For 10 gallons, I push 600cc/min of O2 for 6-10min depending on gravity, higher gravity getting more time. Overall I've been very happy with my purchase, though I wish I would have waited a few months and gotten a 4in1. The quality of my beers has improved quite a bit, and more importantly, I've been able to automate more and leave the system unattended while brewing which gives me more time to spend with my kids.

Joe

 

[xico]

(Efficiency is only about 61%).

Lots to consider. First thing with low modification I look at is water. Have you had it tested yet? If you are on well water, pulling in winter and summer gives an idea of your aquifer at low and high periods. If you are on municipal they may be drawing from multiple wells like mine and you are kinda stuck guessing. I have gone to RO water for my brews for consistency because my tap also has an unreasonable amount of bicarbonate so this is mainly to avoid low mash efficiency.

Second, are you using a thermal compound on your temp probe in the thermowell of the BIAC?

Third, I recirculate the whole mash period with a float valve and a stainless manifold to evenly distribute the return so you get no channeling in the grain bed. The goal is to maximize flow-through and not create any dry pockets. I found the return out a single hose created dunes in my grain bed that clearly altered flow-through.

Do you have a pH meter? I recommend one and keeping up with care. Calcium ions will help facilitate the mash conversion, but pH will also improve enzyme activity. Calcium based salt additions with lactic/citric acid additions for adjustment will zero in your consistency.

Do you check your gravity with a refractometer before mash-out? There's no harm in extending your mash time 20-30 minutes to overcome water issues or slow modification.

Lastly, White is correct that zinc is a critical component to yeast health. The B vitamins in dead yeast are also useful when they cannibalize. I use servomyces or expired dry yeast in my boils and starters along with yeast nutrient which provides a nitrogen source.

O2 is a trickier for a homebrewer. We would need to quantify the concentration of oxygen in the system in order which would require a pricey regulator with a flow counter. You can get a little less than halfway there with ambient oxygenation and a decent whirlpool treatment during the cooling process. Oxygenation bursts don't stack equivalently (2 minues for 5 gallons, 4 minutes for 10) I don't believe. Not only will solubility be a variable but the headspace concentration of oxygen will also affect quantities as all will be picked up by the yeast within minutes of pitching.

 

[hgearle]

Thank you xico, JBBrewing2 and RiverCityBrewer for the detailed responses. No problems with water. I use Bru'n Water spreadsheet and generally use about 70% RO and the rest Chicago city filtered, which has been tested by Ward Labs. My low efficiency mostly has to do with doing 1.079OG batches with 18.25 gallons of water with 34 pounds of grain and 3 pounds of rice hulls (higher gravity with a very thick mash). If you subtract the 5 gallons under the mash tun, the mash is quite thick. I generally hit my pre-boil gravity pretty close.

Nathan said that I only needed to put the thermal compound on once when assembling the temp probe. I have never disassembled the temp probe, but do remove the entire assembly each batch to clean it. I have a 2 foot long ThermoWorks thermometer that I can measure all the way to the bottom of the mash tun so I know the temp of the mash. Temp variations can be 4 degrees in a thick mash, but are less in a thinner one. Since I started conditioning my grain, milling at 35mm, and using one pound of rice hulls per 10 gallons of grain, my temperature variation and re-circulation have improved.

I have two PH meters that I calibrate. Using Bru'n Water, my numbers are usually very close. And I do check the PH during the mash and use a refractometer to make sure the gravity is reaching my pre-boil target.

 

[Jimmy82]

Thank you xico, JBBrewing2 and RiverCityBrewer for the detailed responses. No problems with water. I use Bru'n Water spreadsheet and generally use about 70% RO and the rest Chicago city filtered, which has been tested by Ward Labs. My low efficiency mostly has to do with doing 1.079OG batches with 18.25 gallons of water with 34 pounds of grain and 3 pounds of rice hulls (higher gravity with a very thick mash). If you subtract the 5 gallons under the mash tun, the mash is quite thick. I generally hit my pre-boil gravity pretty close.

I've found the mash too thick for higher gravity brews as well. I typically brew ~1.065 IPA's, and found my efficiency would take a hit on those beers due to the thicker mash. Efficiency on my lower gravity beers was fine.

I recently sold my mash colander, and I'm going back to a traditional mash tun. One added benefit is that I can use the mash tun for both my Large BIAC & 1.5bbl BIAC..

 

[hgearle]

I use Beersmith for my recipe formulation and I have been quoting my brew house efficiency vs. mash efficiency. My mash efficiency for my higher gravity brews has been about 67%. Gotta admit, that even though my efficiency is seeming low, I hit the numbers I expect and the beers I brew are delicious! Happy Thanksgiving to all!

 

[xico]

Sounds like you are doing everything right so I suspect you are correct that the thick mash is the likely issue. One consideration and something I use with high flaked grain grists is to switch in some base malt with 6 row. This will bump your enzymatic activity and improve modification rates. Also, if you bump your calcium ion content it will aid the amylase enzyme further. Two variables that might be worth experimenting with.

If people are off, enjoy your break all!

 

[hgearle]

XICO....you are the tip of the sword when talking BIAC techniques and suggestions. Thank you.

 

[xico]

That's very kind to say, please let us know how things improve.

 

[hgearle]

My post boil (OG) gravity was always measured with both a hydrometer and a refractometer. I always liked the refractometer reading because it always was higher than the hydrometer reading, but my belief was that the hydrometer was more accurate than the hydrometer (so it is the one I used). Turns out that the refractometer reading was correct and the hydrometer was 3 points low. I did a calibration on the hydrometer with distilled water at 60F and was disappointed that it had been lying to me!

With my last batch, I sparged for 20 minutes and picked up a few gravity point. Add this to my UN-calibrated hydrometer, and my efficiency isn't as bad as I thought is was. Regardless of the numbers, I am drinking THE most delicious IPA's ever. Had a family/friend get together recently and did a blind taste test with 2 of my brews and Three Floyds Zombie Dust from the bottle. I simply asked that 8 participants choose the beer they like the best and put them in order with their 3 opaque cups. Only 1 person chose the Zombie Dust over my brews and it was a person that doesn't usually drink IPA's. The BIAC is an awesome way to make delicious beer!

Additionally, when I was in the full day class last month with Dr. Chris White at the BYO Brew Camp, he stated that some trub was actually good for the yeast. One of my concerns with the BIAC was that there was trub still in the conical while fermenting, so now it something I don't worry about. I usually dump about 3/4 of a gallon of trub before aerating and pitching my yeast and I feel that what is left is good for my fermentation.

 

[hgearle]

Not really a BIAC topic but....I just tried out the clear beer draught system (http://www.clearbeerdraughtsystem.com) where you get rid of the corny output tube draining from the bottom of the keg, and siphon from the top of the fluid in the keg. Gotta say...it is amazing! To try it out, I had 1.75 gallons extra from my 11 gallon batch, put it in a 3 gallon corny, added one ounce of hops (no bag), and let is sit for a week. Chilled and carbonated it, and 8 days later I poured out 1/3 glass and dumped it. The next pour was crystal clear as if it was 2 weeks later. I usually have to pour out several pints to get to the clarity that I had right off the bat from pouring from the top of the keg...makes sense. The system is a bit pricey, but for me it is worth it. I am tired of pouring my brew down the drain waiting for a clear pour. This first glass was crystal clear! PS. I don't know the owner of the system and have never communicated with him. Cheers!

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

For anyone interested in using a steam condenser like in this thread, I did a water test and attached it to a lid port on the 3in1. Even though the lid did not make a perfect seal as I did not clamp it in place, it reliably pulled the steam through the condenser and left me with a steam free brewing space. I typically boil at 65-75% power (5500w element) for a 10 gallon batch, and my water test yielded a very vigorous boil (may even be too hard) at 40% power with the lid in place. I'm going to perform a few more tests before I commit a batch, but just wanted to give a heads up if anyone else was interested in the concept that it most definitely works with the BIAC.

Joe

 

[cuda6pak]

Has anyone tried to whirlpool post boil through the bottom of the cone and through a Stout style racking arm aimed slightly up at the racking port? Not sure if it would be pulling too close to the outlet to form a good enough whirlpool. Both conicals are filled up so can't test right now.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Has anyone tried to whirlpool post boil through the bottom of the cone and through a Stout style racking arm aimed slightly up at the racking port? Not sure if it would be pulling too close to the outlet to form a good enough whirlpool. Both conicals are filled up so can't test right now.

Yep, sure do. I angle the racking arm up maybe 15-20 degrees and it gets a pretty good movement going. Seems to work well to speed up chilling a bit too.

 

[itivino]

Has anyone thought of or tried an alternative heating source, through the conical jacket? e.g. hot air into the jacket, hot oil into the jacket, etc