3-in-1 "Boil Kettle, Jacketed Chiller, Conical Fermenter" by Brewha

[limulus]

Why would you whirlpool in a conical? It's a center drain with sloped sides, kinda defeats the purpose.

The whirlpool aids the the cooling. The BIAC has a jacket with either water flowing or a closed system with a glycol chiller. I use water to bring mine down to around 100F and then switch to glycol after that. If I could swirl the water around, it would cool faster just like spinning a bottle of wine or a beer bottle in ice water. That is why I would do it at least in theory.

 

[Jimmy82]

Why would you whirlpool in a conical? It's a center drain with sloped sides, kinda defeats the purpose.

I whirlpool for quicker chilling after the boil. Speeds up chilling time significantly.

 

[xico]

I met a scientist from American Soc. of Brewing Chemists this weekend who said research is beginning to show that aeration before cooling may produce off flavors and speed the oxidation of your hop acids. It looks like the whirlpool is contained with the top on so it may not be an issue but I wanted to share. Maybe you can verify or debunk this assertion?

 

[Jimmy82]

I met a scientist from American Soc. of Brewing Chemists this weekend who said research is beginning to show that aeration before cooling may produce off flavors and speed the oxidation of your hop acids. It looks like the whirlpool is contained with the top on so it may not be an issue but I wanted to share. Maybe you can verify or debunk this assertion?

I can't verify or debunk it, but many, many breweries whirlpool after the boil and before chilling, with no notable negative effects.

 

[xico]

I can't verify or debunk it, but many, many breweries whirlpool after the boil and before chilling, with no notable negative effects.

True, but the breweries I've worked in also have the kettle port closed for much of the brew and a lot of the O2 has been driven out from the boil. Also, when we whirlpooled it was only done for 5 mins while the wort was ~200 F. O2 is less easily dissolved when that hot. It's when the liquid cools that O2 that has entered via a repeatedly opened lid (comparatively huge for the volume compared to a 5 barrel kettle port) can begin to aerate the wort.

I'm not trying to be difficult, or minimize the cool improvement you have made to a BIAC. I dig it and would like to know more on how effective it is (chilling time, water usage comparison, so on). If the cooling process takes as long as I am suspecting without it, I may well be interested in borrowing your idea. New designs bring with them new idiosyncrasies and the sooner we understand the science of these quirks the faster we can improve our use of them.

For example, if the whirlpool arm is added before the boil then there is likely little O2 in the vessel and the lines are filled with de-oxygenated wort. There is probably little concern for hot side aeration then. Or perhaps the aeration is done intermittently which would also minimize the aeration and still distributes the temperature in the kettle.

 

[Jimmy82]

True, but the breweries I've worked in also have the kettle port closed for much of the brew and a lot of the O2 has been driven out from the boil. Also, when we whirlpooled it was only done for 5 mins while the wort was ~200 F. O2 is less easily dissolved when that hot. It's when the liquid cools that O2 that has entered via a repeatedly opened lid (comparatively huge for the volume compared to a 5 barrel kettle port) can begin to aerate the wort.

My lid doesn't come of the BIAC during chilling. The lid goes on about 1 minute before the boil ends (to sanitize it), and is only opened to add yeast, and later to add dry hops.

I dig it and would like to know more on how effective it is (chilling time, water usage comparison, so on).

Chilling 46 liters of wort from boil to ~80*F takes about 15 minutes with the whirlpool..without is about 30 minutes. I don't measure my run-off, so I can't speak to the volume of water used to chill. Approximately half I guess?

For example, if the whirlpool arm is added before the boil then there is likely little O2 in the vessel and the lines are filled with de-oxygenated wort. There is probably little concern for hot side aeration then. Or perhaps the aeration is done intermittently which would also minimize the aeration and still distributes the temperature in the kettle.

I installed a racking arm in the racking port, and I use this to create the whirlpool. The pump and lines are hooked up during the boil, and I recirculate toward the end of the boil to sanitize the pump & lines. I pull wort from the bottom port, and pump back into the racking port. The lines/pump are already full of boiling hot wort when I start the whirlpool.

 

[b1v1r]

Why would you whirlpool in a conical? It's a center drain with sloped sides, kinda defeats the purpose.

As others mentioned, chill speed. For me it is 50m to 60F from boil down to 30m with recirculation from bottom through racking port. Hoping the whirlpool will do a bit better as it will spin along the cold sides.

Additionally I want to hook up an inline hop filter to clean up hops and trub.

 

[b1v1r]

I met a scientist from American Soc. of Brewing Chemists this weekend who said research is beginning to show that aeration before cooling may produce off flavors and speed the oxidation of your hop acids. It looks like the whirlpool is contained with the top on so it may not be an issue but I wanted to share. Maybe you can verify or debunk this assertion?

Read through this:

http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/

 

[cuda6pak]

I'd like to get a racking cane and whirpool, but from reading Jimmy82's results I have a feeling I'd clog the pump right away and be royally pissed off.

 

[b1v1r]

I'd like to get a racking cane and whirpool, but from reading Jimmy82's results I have a feeling I'd clog the pump right away and be royally pissed off.

That is one reason I went with the top port route. It allows me to recirc from the racking port through the top and the trub will settle in the bottom and can be dropped out. Another option is a hop filter such as this:

https://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1-Testing.html

 

[limulus]

That is one reason I went with the top port route. It allows me to recirc from the racking port through the top and the trub will settle in the bottom and can be dropped out. Another option is a hop filter such as this:

https://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1-Testing.html

I agree.

 

[cuda6pak]

Hmm, that looks like it would work out pretty well. Only thing bad is it adds an element that will need to be cleaned/sanitized which sort of takes away from the beauty of the BIAC system. Racking port cane would automatically be sanitized during the boil, but risks of clogging.

I suppose I would only whirlpool with IPAs however so it wouldn't need to be cleaned/sanitized with every single batch.

 

[limulus]

I made an 8-gallon batch that had a pretty decent hop load. When using the hop basket all the hops were not submerged, so I had to quickly come up with a way to lower the basket w/o it falling all the way in or scalding myself. I need to figure out a more elegant way of doing that. Has anyone else run into that situation?

 

[cuda6pak]

Has anyone considered doing a continuous recirculation of dry hops? Interesting article. Could easily be done with our setup. I wonder if you could leave the pump setup hooked up after whirlpooling so it's clean and sanitized without O2, and then proceed with the dry hopping after primary?

http://www.metabrewing.com/2013/02/recirculating-dry-hops-extract-more.html

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-8Kh9NTj0[/ame]

 

[JB_Brewing2]

I made an 8-gallon batch that had a pretty decent hop load. When using the hop basket all the hops were not submerged, so I had to quickly come up with a way to lower the basket w/o it falling all the way in or scalding myself. I need to figure out a more elegant way of doing that. Has anyone else run into that situation?

Had the same issue. With the hook on the hop basket and using whole leaf hops, it is almost impossible to get full submersion and therefore, complete utilization of the hops. I bought a spool of small gauge stainless wire and inserted one end into the screen near the top and side of the hook bar and pulled the other end through the screen on the opposite side of the hook. Basically encircling the stainless bar terminating with the hook. I can adjust the depth easily and just wrap the other end around a handle. On my last brew, I had three hop baskets submerged without issue. Hope this helps.

 

[limulus]

Hey Guys, I bought a little inexpensive water meter from Amazon. I gave it a very quick test tonight and it seems to be pretty darn accurate. I used one of my old 10gal beverage cooler mash tuns that have graduated markings in liters and gallons on the inside. I ran the water until the 3gal mark and compared to the markings on the inside, it was right on. I continued to 5gal and then 10gal with the same results. I ran the gauge on the clean side of an inline water filter with an on/off ball valve for quick shut off. When the meter said 3, 5 or 10, I closed the valve and checked against the measurement inside the cooler which also said the same. So it is accurate for now. Time will tell how long it lasts, but for <$15, I can't complain.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058EOC5M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[brew-in]

Hey Guys, I bought a little inexpensive water meter from Amazon. I gave it a very quick test tonight and it seems to be pretty darn accurate. I used one of my old 10gal beverage cooler mash tuns that have graduated markings in liters and gallons on the inside. I ran the water until the 3gal mark and compared to the markings on the inside, it was right on. I continued to 5gal and then 10gal with the same results. I ran the gauge on the clean side of an inline water filter with an on/off ball valve for quick shut off. When the meter said 3, 5 or 10, I closed the valve and checked against the measurement inside the cooler which also said the same. So it is accurate for now. Time will tell how long it lasts, but for <$15, I can't complain.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058EOC5M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

did not see where this item is "food grade"..

 

[snackson]

did not see where this item is "food grade"..

Does it need to be for the water pre mash/ pre boil? We're making beer here. I think you'll be fine. I've actually been thinking about getting one of those and have it on my wish list for a while.

 

[snackson]

Same one at Home Depot and the company states safe for potable water.

 

[limulus]

Yeah, I wondered about the meter not being labeled for potable water. The meter itself is all plastic. There is no metal in the area that touches the water so at least I don't think I'll get lead poisoning. The plastic itself...??? Also, a lot of people use non-food grade plastic tubing in their brewing including their draft lines. I myself bought all proper beer grade stuff for my taps. I know we all use the silicone hose that came with our BIAC for transfers.

I initially connected the meter to the post filter end of my inline filter. I did that to keep any particulate in the water from getting into the little wheel and clogging it. Maybe, I'll move it to the pre-filter side. The inside of the meter is smooth and shiny and I use white potable water hose to connect. The entire meter is 3.25" long and the contact area is about 3"

It does have a CE mark and is manufactured in Taiwan instead of China. I don't know if that really makes a difference but as someone who has traveled to Taiwan for business, I can tell you Taiwan is definitely NOT China.

There is a symbol next to the CE mark that is a bit curious and I don't know exactly what it is. I searched for potable and non-potable water symbols and none look like this symbol.

 

[limulus]

The electric 7bbl system sold by Stout includes a flow meter for strike water. However, they don't have it listed as an individual item on their website. I also checked Brewmation, the manufacturer of the electric control panel for Stout. They also sell the same 7bbl system but do not show the flow meter as an individual item for purchase.

 

[limulus]

Same one at Home Depot and the company states safe for potable water.

good to know.

 

[snackson]

good to know.

Scratch that, I just re-read it again this morning. It states that it is exclusively for OUTDOOR USE ONLY. Use it pre-filter with a carbon filter and I would assume it would be alright. Using the filter the flowrate should be slow enough anyways. If it were me, I would use it. Many times I used a regular garden hose in the past to fill my kettles when I was first starting out. There is plenty of tubing that is used that isn't "Food Grade" as you alluded to earlier. One of them being the common siphon tubing.

 

[limulus]

Not that this makes it right to use a non food grade rated plastic...but I have been in more small craft breweries than I can count that use plastic boat paddles to stir mash. In my mind, using my little 2" long water meter with cold water is not as bad as a plastic boat paddle to stir 160F water. For example:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzLtmIA0LEE[/ame]

 

[JB_Brewing2]

Not that this makes it right to use a non food grade rated plastic...but I have been in more small craft breweries than I can count that use plastic boat paddles to stir mash. In my mind, using my little 2" long water meter with cold water is not as bad as a plastic boat paddle to stir 160F water.

I bought the same plastic flow meter and am unconcerned. As you stated, plastic is commonly used in mashes. The other options I saw, to go food grade, were significantly more expensive. Doubt this small plastic item will cause any issues. It's really nice to be able to measure down to the tenth of a gallon.

 

[brew-in]

"The other options I saw, to go food grade, were significantly more expensive. "

IMHO, there is a reason for the price and I doubt it is just the plastic...I suspect there are sensor issues that must also be addressed to make it food grade...

 

[wzd]

Yeah, I wondered about the meter not being labeled for potable water. The meter itself is all plastic. There is no metal in the area that touches the water so at least I don't think I'll get lead poisoning. The plastic itself...??? Also, a lot of people use non-food grade plastic tubing in their brewing including their draft lines. I myself bought all proper beer grade stuff for my taps. I know we all use the silicone hose that came with our BIAC for transfers.

I initially connected the meter to the post filter end of my inline filter. I did that to keep any particulate in the water from getting into the little wheel and clogging it. Maybe, I'll move it to the pre-filter side. The inside of the meter is smooth and shiny and I use white potable water hose to connect. The entire meter is 3.25" long and the contact area is about 3"

It does have a CE mark and is manufactured in Taiwan instead of China. I don't know if that really makes a difference but as someone who has traveled to Taiwan for business, I can tell you Taiwan is definitely NOT China.

There is a symbol next to the CE mark that is a bit curious and I don't know exactly what it is. I searched for potable and non-potable water symbols and none look like this symbol.

I believe that symbol is the "Do not dispose in household waste" symbol.

 

[brew-in]

Wow... Not being food grade, saying for outdoor use only, and do not dispose of in household waste symbol and you all still want to use these in your system?

 

[JB_Brewing2]

Wow... Not being food grade, saying for outdoor use only, and do not dispose of in household waste symbol and you all still want to use these in your system?

The symbol indicating this should not be disposed in household waste is due to the electronics and battery inside which indicates it should be recycled.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to hypochondriasis. Worked great! How do you measure water in your BIAC?

 

[limulus]

Wow... Not being food grade, saying for outdoor use only, and do not dispose of in household waste symbol and you all still want to use these in your system?

Mine does not say for outdoor use only. It even has a CE mark but that is probably regarding the electronics. See photo in post 680. Also, you can look at breweries all over youtube and see real 7bbl breweries not just little 1bbl nanos using plastic boat paddles to stir their hot mash. I always wonder about that myself, but there are some who have done it for years. A lot of people use plastic buckets, pumps and plastic tubing that are not food grade. I"m sure we can all go into our kitchens and find plastic and ceramic-type items that were made in China from who knows what. Yeah it doesn't make it right but if you examine this little gauge you would see it is a very small pathway and completely smooth. It is also accurate and a whole lot easier to use than the stainless steel ruler that hangs on the side of my medium BIAC.