3-2-1 vs. 1-2-3 Method

[Beer Snob]

You know.... I can honestly say I have never realy understood this. And to tell a newbie it can make things even worst. Obviously you rack when it's done. Not that you reached a time period. I mean this 3-2-1 or 1-2-3 does not take into account a single ingrediant that you put in the thing. Make a standard beer that ok. Put mollassis or honey in and it's a different story. Make a smoked beer that needs the time or want to add cherries to a secondary (and in this case, secondary means a 6.5 gal you know) and you also have a very different situation. Then you have the beer that is just sluggish for some reason. Ah, 1 week is up. Gotta rack... then the nut has to peal beer from the cieling and wonders what the hell went wrong.

I don't know....I know 'we' can say it... thats because a good amount of 'we' have the experience to look at a carboy and say ok... it's done... oh... well it just happens to be one week anyways... all the better you know.

I just think that when we get a thread like this we have to be carefull. A lot of people are reading it and many dont have anywhere near the experience that they need to have to look at a situation and say they need to rack when they hit a time period you know...

 

[Danek]

"In general we recomend a single-vessel fermentation for a minimum of 1 week, and not more than 4 weeks, before packaging. Racking to a secondary fermenter is not recomended except for beers requiring a long fermentation, such as lagers, or beers requiring a second fermentation , such as sour ales and fruit beers."

If those guys say it then I'd bet it's sound advice - but does anyone know why they say this? Is it just a way of minimising risk of contamination, or do they think there's something bad about using a secondary? In other words, do they think a secondary is harmless but needless, or do they think it actually lessens the quality of the beer?

 

[Kevin K]

I really like the idea of skipping the secondary (for simplicity's sake, and time savings).


What about dry hopping? I've got a pilsner and a pale ale in the primaries now that I'd like to dry hop before kegging. Do I still do this in the primary (wait until fermentation is done?)?

Kevin

 

[Beerthoven]

If those guys say it then I'd bet it's sound advice - but does anyone know why they say this? Is it just a way of minimising risk of contamination, or do they think there's something bad about using a secondary? In other words, do they think a secondary is harmless but needless, or do they think it actually lessens the quality of the beer?

Jamil has stated in his radio show that, in his experience, secondaries can actually lessen the quality of the beer. Especially if you simply follow the standard advice of 1 week in primary then rack.

I can't remember which episode it was, sorry.

 

[BrooZer]

I really like the idea of skipping the secondary (for simplicity's sake, and time savings).


What about dry hopping? I've got a pilsner and a pale ale in the primaries now that I'd like to dry hop before kegging. Do I still do this in the primary (wait until fermentation is done?)?

Kevin

2nd the question on Dry hopping. I am curious.

 

[Jekster]

2nd the question on Dry hopping. I am curious.

I don't think there is any problem with this. I have a gumball head clone that fermented out in about a week. I simply took out the stopper and pitched in my hops. The only thing a secondary would accomplish is getting the beer of the yeast cake which really shouldn't matter unless, like people said, you're going to age it for a very long time. Since dry hopping usually only last 1-2 weeks it's not really a problem at all.

 

[Kevin K]

From the research I've done, I'd agree. I also listened to a few episodes of the Jamil show, and they seem to agree.

I added my 1oz of Centennial to the primary this morning (Krausen had fallen).

We'll see how it goes!

Kevin

 

[bigben]

I have adopted the 3-3 method. 3 weeks in Primary, 3 weeks in bottle. If I keg I do 3 weeks in primary, 1 week in keg carbing, and start drinking even tho it is a little green

If I am dry hopping I just wait till active fermentation is done...7- 10days, then throw in the hops.

 

[Makita]

I've been away from making beer for about a year...and now I'm hearing that the secondary fermentation isn't really necessary! Very surprising.

I always read that leaving the beer on the spent yeast bed gave the beer off-flavors, but I'm certainly willing to skip that racking step if that's not true.

So, a couple of questions:
1) I only bottle. Is the 3-3 method valid for bottles, or only kegs?

2) I always get some yeast in my bottles even out of the secondary. How do I avoid getting an inch of yeast in each bottle when racking directly out of the primary?

 

[Yooper]

3-3 works even for bottling. Just be more careful with your racking, and rack from about the trub. It helps if you use a highly flocculant yeast, because then the trub layer is more compacted.

 

[tagz]

if you skip the secondary, is it ok to do the whole fermentation in the plastic primary? i've heard that oxygen can get through the plastic - at how many weeks does that become a concern? i assume over a 3 week period this isn't a huge problem.

 

[jeff967]

no secondary here, I go 4weeks in primary, 4weeks in bottles,turns out nice clear beer.

 

[BrewDey]

I have adopted the 3-3 method. 3 weeks in Primary, 3 weeks in bottle.

This is what I've ended up doing as well (depending on how long the active fermentation takes). I don't really have the carboy space to do 2ndaries (thanks to Ed Wort)-plus, it's one less chance for nasties to get in there. It seems like the main thing is to give it enough time in the bottle.

 

[Søren T]

I observed the same thing when I skipped the secondary. At the same time I started to adjust the mash pH so I asumed that was the reason for the improved clarity.
Also my bottled beers carbonated in less than one week oposed to two week earlier.

Also try adding calcium in a pale ale/ESB and it you'll see improved flocculation as well.

 

[B-Dub]

You really only need yeast contact long enough to get the Diacetyl precursors absorbed. That should be about 24 hours after terminal gravity. Then get it off the yeast and as cold as you can without freezing until time for tapping a tasty and clear beer.

I like to "crash" cool the brew on the yeast in primary for 5 days or so then into the keg and the tap fridge.

As stated before some yeasts are more likely to blow their guts all over your beer than others. So if you know your yeast or keep it cold at least...you should be good to go!

 

[modenacart]

As stated before some yeasts are more likely to blow their guts all over your beer than others. So if you know your yeast or keep it cold at least...you should be good to go!

I had some yeast do this and the beer tasted soapy. It was not very good, but I think it was from high fermentation temperature and not time on the cake because it was only in primary for about 2 weeks.

 

[Kevin K]

From the research I've done, I'd agree. I also listened to a few episodes of the Jamil show, and they seem to agree.

I added my 1oz of Centennial to the primary this morning (Krausen had fallen).

We'll see how it goes!

Kevin

It goes great.

3 weeks in the primary, almost a week in the keg, and the beer is fantastic.

I dry hopped this batch in the primary after fermentation was complete, and the result is a nice smooth beer, with just a touch of bitterness at finish.

A damn fine beer for my first kegging experience.


PS - I'll never go back to bottling.

Kevin

 

[Makita]

So, when bottling directly out of the primary, do you guys try to put a hop bag over the siphon (as a make-shift filter) when it goes into the carboy?

My current beer has been in the primary for just over a week, and isn't even close to being clear. Even if it does clear up, won't the suction from the siphoning pull the yeast bed up and into my siphon, and subsequently into the bottles?

 

[Kevin K]

Give it another two weeks, it'll clear up.

You should be able to get almost all of that beer of the yeast bed without sucking up too much unwanted gunk.

I did it for the first time this weekend, and did pretty good. The first pint was a little foggy, the rest clear.

 

[oddsock]

I've pretty much settled on 3-3 for my first brew as well. I'm going to rack it to my bottling bucket rather than bottle straight from the primary. I think I'm going to leave it in the bucket for a day to settle before bottling, but I'm not really sure if that is needed.

Is everyone who is doing 3-3 using a bucket primary, or a carboy? It seems like with this schedule you don't need a carboy at all.

 

[BrewDey]

Is everyone who is doing 3-3 using a bucket primary, or a carboy? It seems like with this schedule you don't need a carboy at all.

I'm assuming either would be fine. I do everything in carboys-mainly because I like to watch the show..so it's usually in the (6 gal. at least) carboy for 3-4 weeks, then right into the bottling bucket.

 

[modenacart]

I like the carboy because its easier to know if its clean and doesn't have the problem of scatching like plastic does. Also plastic can breath, which will let O2 in but its not really a problem.

 

[Danek]

Jamil has stated in his radio show that, in his experience, secondaries can actually lessen the quality of the beer. Especially if you simply follow the standard advice of 1 week in primary then rack. I can't remember which episode it was, sorry.

Thanks for the heads up - I think I've found it. He talked about it some on the American Pale Ale edition of the Jamil Show (4-10-2006 at http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/jamilshow.xml ). I hope it's OK to post a partial transcription on here. The guys had been discussing American Pale Ales, and the comments below follow on from a discussion on the importance of using a properly pitched starter.

Other Dude: What about fermentation length – how long would you let your primary go?
Jamil Zainasheff: With a good healthy pitched yeast, these will ferment out in four or five days. I personally just let it sit for ten days, let the yeast reabsorb any diacetyl, convert the acetylaldehyde, things like that, and finish up what they’re doing, and fully ferment and floc out. Then I go ahead and keg it.
OD: And you don’t secondary?
JZ: No, no, I don’t bother with any of that. It’s not really necessary.
OD: Not for ales at least, yeah. Is it specifically not necessary for this beer [Jamil’s APA] or just… I mean we’ve talked about this before...
JZ: Not for any beer
OD: …but they’re just asking specifically about if you’d do a secondary for this one.
JZ: No, for no beers.
OD: Not even lagers?
JZ: Uh… no. You know, I’ll…
OD: You don’t drop the yeast off at all?
JZ: No, ‘cause the yeast is there, you need the yeast in there, and it’s good for like four weeks. Let the lager finish out, let it finish what it’s doing, and then you don’t need a diacetyl rest or any of that. Then keg it. One of the things I learned long ago, was, you know, the secondary was screwing up my beers more than it was helping. I was ending up with acetylaldehyde, I was ending up with some diacetyl, I was ending up with some off-flavours, all because I was pulling the beer off the yeast and not letting the yeast do what it was supposed to do. Everybody said ‘At seven days you move it to another container and get it off all of that yucky yeast'. Well that yucky yeast is what’s making the beer. So I stopped screwing with that, and my beers improved markedly. And I saved myself quite a bit of time – you don’t have to clean the container, you don’t have to do all the tubing, you don’t add oxygen to the beer by transferring from one to the other, and just a lot of different reasons why I stopped doing that. That really helped. The one style that I think you really need to do the secondary on is meads. And that’s just because you have a fairly long process there. Some breakdown of the yeast will give you a bit of a nutty character to the meads which you want – but you don’t want too much. And meads, you let them sit in the carboy for a good year.
OD: Is that on the yeast bed?
JZ: No, once the yeast are pretty much finished I’ll give them a couple of months and then you get some autolysis of the yeast to get a little bit of that nutty, and then move it off, and that helps.