2nd AG batch turning sour, I am worried

[Remos112]

Did you do anything to the oak chips to sanitize them? If not I would start there.

The instructions said nothing about this so I put sprayed them with starsan solution and put them in a hop bag an added at the same time as the yeast. But if this is where the infection is from, wouldn't it be detected earlier?
I tasted one beer only one week in the bottle and it tasted , young and undercarbed, but otherwise very good. Or is it possible id laid dorment all this time?

 

[hottpeper13]

All I know is my buddy only soaked his in whisky for a week and got contaminated. I start soaking mine on brew day and those beers go for 4 weeks in primary and so far all is good.

 

[Remos112]

All I know is my buddy only soaked his in whisky for a week and got contaminated. I start soaking mine on brew day and those beers go for 4 weeks in primary and so far all is good.

It is something that can't be dismissed I guess, thanks for your post

 

[hlmbrwng]

I believe boiling them is good for two reasons: sterilizing and remove potentially harsh flavors. For my last imperial stout, I ended up dumping the bourbon I first used to soak the oak cubes. The second round of bourbon ended up having softer flavors imparted on it from the oak. I used medium charred oak. I had issues with both American and French. I think boiling them to begin with would have been beneficial.

 

[hlmbrwng]

It took a few months and a few dumpers before I figured it out. I started fermenting in a different part of the house and didn't have a problem after that.

This concerns me. I think that something is in the fermentation chamber and I will be do a deep clean. Also, the kitchen could probably use a good cleaning as well. But I have no where else to brew right now and I only have one fermentation chamber...not really looking forward to buying another fridge at the moment.

Do you feel that with a good enough clean, most environmental issues could be resolved? I haven't had problems before the last two batches, but I do understand that this problematic yeast (i think it's a brett) is in the air. But how likely is this to be a problem?

 

[hlmbrwng]

I have been considering getting the SS Brewtech 14 gal BME fermenter. Currently, I am afraid of both the fermentation chamber (fridge) and air in brewing space giving me issues. As an added reason for getting this, I realize that I will be controlling the temperature with the FTSs2 kit, so no fridge needed, and that I can pump the wort from the kettle directly into the fermenter, minimizing exposure to the ambient air. Of course, I will need to open the fermenter briefly to pitch the yeast.

Thoughts?

 

[Transamguy77]

This concerns me. I think that something is in the fermentation chamber and I will be do a deep clean. Also, the kitchen could probably use a good cleaning as well. But I have no where else to brew right now and I only have one fermentation chamber...not really looking forward to buying another fridge at the moment.



Do you feel that with a good enough clean, most environmental issues could be resolved? I haven't had problems before the last two batches, but I do understand that this problematic yeast (i think it's a brett) is in the air. But how likely is this to be a problem?

Well I ONLY replaced my transfer hoses with new ones and I used a heavy bleach and water solution to thoroughly clean everything else. You could also after a good clean put your fridge not in the sun to help kill stuff off.

Is where your fermenting at in a damp or no airflow space? I was in the basement with stagnant air. You might have to try fermenting somewhere else just to see if there is a change and use a swamp cooler to keep your temps down.

If it's an airborne problem your going to have to go outside the box to figure it out which is also why it's so frustrating. Brew something simple and low gravity so if you have to dump it it's not a big loss.

 

[Remos112]

The mason jar with beer smells less sour everyday, it is still crystal clear beer. Could this be an indiction something else is/was going on?

 

[Remos112]

Could it be acetaldehyde from bottle carbing warmer then desired for a lager? (+/- 23C)

 

[hlmbrwng]

There is plenty of airflow where I am brewing. I brew in the kitchen and have the windows open, but with the screens in place.
The only beers I store in the basement for fermentation and aging are sour beers.

You are right that I should brew something simple. Maybe I should make a couple of gallons and split the batch. I can put one gallon in the fridge during fermentation and another in a room that I'm pretty sure would not share the same issue. And maybe a third in the kitchen outside of the fermentation chamber. This way I can possibly tell if it is the kitchen itself or the fridge.

 

[Transamguy77]

The mason jar with beer smells less sour everyday, it is still crystal clear beer. Could this be an indiction something else is/was going on?

How does it taste? Still sour? If I remember correctly acetaldehyde is from an unfinished fermentation. Either from a low pitch rate or not left long enough in primary. I've had a beer with it and it eventually aged almost out.

 

[Remos112]

How does it taste? Still sour? If I remember correctly acetaldehyde is from an unfinished fermentation. Either from a low pitch rate or not left long enough in primary. I've had a beer with it and it eventually aged almost out.

Got one from the basement, and not only does it smell horrific, it is also hugely overcarbed so didn't even bother tasting. I'm putting my money on lactobacillus or some wild yeast now.letting it ride out longer is no longer an option due the risk of bottlebombs and I will be tossing the entire batch this weekend.

 

[Transamguy77]

Got one from the basement, and not only does it smell horrific, it is also hugely overcarbed so didn't even bother tasting. I'm putting my money on lactobacillus or some wild yeast now.letting it ride out longer is no longer an option due the risk of bottlebombs and I will be tossing the entire batch this weekend.

Sorry to hear, hopefully you get it figured out soon before you have to dump more beer.

 

[Remos112]

Sorry to hear, hopefully you get it figured out soon before you have to dump more beer.

Thanks for the compassion. I am about to bottle 20l Chouffe inspired Belgian Ale this weekend so I a am a bit anxious. I put a Quack inspired brew in the fridge after just 2 weeks in the bottle to have a taste in a minute. If this is even slightly sour I am going on a cleaning frenzy for all my bottling equipment. But even then it might be to late already so fingers crossed. I will keep you'all updated!

 

[Remos112]

The kwak inspired brew seems to be ok, other then almost no carbonation at all (not surprisingly at 10.5 %abv) and it still tastes very alcoholic(young) But luckily no off flavours. I will proceed with bottling the Chouffe clone this weekend, and I will toss the oak beer too, luckily they are in 2 seperate houses so at least the infected beer is far from the brewhouse!

 

[helibrewer]

You can sanitize oak chips/cubes in the oven, 250 degrees for 10 minutes is plenty of time.

I bake my plate chiller in the oven at 450 for an hour every 3 brews or so.

 

[helibrewer]

There is plenty of airflow where I am brewing. I brew in the kitchen and have the windows open, but with the screens in place.
The only beers I store in the basement for fermentation and aging are sour beers.

You are right that I should brew something simple. Maybe I should make a couple of gallons and split the batch. I can put one gallon in the fridge during fermentation and another in a room that I'm pretty sure would not share the same issue. And maybe a third in the kitchen outside of the fermentation chamber. This way I can possibly tell if it is the kitchen itself or the fridge.

If you are making sours and clean beers they need to be kept FAR apart. I would not ferment clean beers in the same space as sours. Anything used on the cold side for the sours should be labeled and not used for clean beers (hoses, siphons, buckets, fermenters, etc.). There are breweries around here that won't let employees go from the clean side to the sour side, you work in one location or the other, not both.

 

[Remos112]

You can sanitize oak chips/cubes in the oven, 250 degrees for 10 minutes is plenty of time.

I bake my plate chiller in the oven at 450 for an hour every 3 brews or so.

Good tips I will keep that in mind! Thanks!

 

[Remos112]

If you are making sours and clean beers they need to be kept FAR apart. I would not ferment clean beers in the same space as sours. Anything used on the cold side for the sours should be labeled and not used for clean beers (hoses, siphons, buckets, fermenters, etc.). There are breweries around here that won't let employees go from the clean side to the sour side, you work in one location or the other, not both.

Wow I am a bit baffled by this. Are sour bugs really that hard to get rid off? I am so hoping I have dodged a bullet here and it is just one screwed batch.

 

[secondbase]

If you are making sours and clean beers they need to be kept FAR apart. I would not ferment clean beers in the same space as sours. Anything used on the cold side for the sours should be labeled and not used for clean beers (hoses, siphons, buckets, fermenters, etc.). There are breweries around here that won't let employees go from the clean side to the sour side, you work in one location or the other, not both.

I've been brewing sour and clean beers literally side by side for years with no contamination issues. I agree that cold side plastic equipment should be kept separate (including rubber stoppers and airlocks!) but as long as your cleaning and sanitation are on point and aren't open fermenting everything in the same space I don't see a problem.

 

[helibrewer]

It's not impossible, just not best practice

 

[hlmbrwng]

I've been brewing sour and clean beers literally side by side for years with no contamination issues. I agree that cold side plastic equipment should be kept separate (including rubber stoppers and airlocks!) but as long as your cleaning and sanitation are on point and aren't open fermenting everything in the same space I don't see a problem.

There is a very distinct smell that the stoppers now have after being used on the infected batch. I even boiled the stoppers for 15 minutes. The next day, they still had the smell. I can't imagine anything surviving that, and maybe the odor is not a good measure of whether it is teeming with life, but it worries me enough.

Speaking of boiling things. I tried boiling just about everything, MINUS the auto siphon and thief. The only thing that didn't work out was the plastic airlock. The tubing was fine, as I said the stoppers, hard plastics and glass I have been using for microscopy reasons, metal fittings for the plumping...
is there any reason NOT to boil tubing? I mean, if it holds up during the boiling, is there anything to worry about? If not, I might do this every now and again.

I made a huge mistake though placing my carboy in my 16 gal kettle to boil. I've gotten to the point where my paranoia of infection has taken over. I put water in the kettle, and water in the carboy and placed that in the kettle. I figure that bringing it all to a boil together would prevent the glass from breaking. Well, I forgot that the carboy touching the bottom of the kettle, which is directly heated by the flame, would be a problem. That thing was loud when the bottom bust apart.

 

[Remos112]

There is a very distinct smell that the stoppers now have after being used on the infected batch. I even boiled the stoppers for 15 minutes. The next day, they still had the smell. I can't imagine anything surviving that, and maybe the odor is not a good measure of whether it is teeming with life, but it worries me enough.

Speaking of boiling things. I tried boiling just about everything, MINUS the auto siphon and thief. The only thing that didn't work out was the plastic airlock. The tubing was fine, as I said the stoppers, hard plastics and glass I have been using for microscopy reasons, metal fittings for the plumping...
is there any reason NOT to boil tubing? I mean, if it holds up during the boiling, is there anything to worry about? If not, I might do this every now and again.

I made a huge mistake though placing my carboy in my 16 gal kettle to boil. I've gotten to the point where my paranoia of infection has taken over. I put water in the kettle, and water in the carboy and placed that in the kettle. I figure that bringing it all to a boil together would prevent the glass from breaking. Well, I forgot that the carboy touching the bottom of the kettle, which is directly heated by the flame, would be a problem. That thing was loud when the bottom bust apart.

I can't imagine anything surviving boiling either,but smells can be hard to get rid off. I wouldn't worrie about it too much knowing you boiled it.
As for boiling tubing, I am interrested to hear if this is a good idea too. Also if there is any difference between silicon and pvc, I highly prefer silicon for it's flexibility and heat resistence though.
[edit]My localbrewshop says this about silicon hoses :temperature range -50ºC - +260ºC) So I don't see any problem with boiling them every now and then.

 

[ncbrewer]

A concern I have about boiling is the high temperature of the bottom of the pot - it can be much hotter than the boiling water since it's in contact with the stove burner. I expect it would be best to use something like a vegetable steamer to keep the tubing and other parts off of the bottom.

 

[hlmbrwng]

A concern I have about boiling is the high temperature of the bottom of the pot - it can be much hotter than the boiling water since it's in contact with the stove burner. I expect it would be best to use something like a vegetable steamer to keep the tubing and other parts off of the bottom.

It is a concern, because that is what happened to the carboy. I should have used some sort of stand to place it on. I think even an inch above the bottom would have prevented it from breaking. The tubing, however, was fine when I just placed it in the pot.

 

[Remos112]

I still have the sample jar and it seems to be completely converted. It now contains crystal clear apple juice looking fluid wit a layer of yeast at the bottom. Ik has some white flakes floating on top and it smells very very sour. didn't dare to tase but I think this was acetobacter after all.

 

[Remos112]