240v eKeggle BIAB

[UndeadFred]

So, I see you have reflectix.. Do you think it would be helpful with my recirculating PID system? I assume you have to take it off at boil, right? I love my system too. It really only takes off about 30-45 minutes off of the brew day but it is all inside and is so much easier. My efficiency hasn't come down but I still stir the mash in the bag every 20 minutes and mash for 90 (I always have enough other stuff to do that it ends up 90 anyway).

 

[BeardedBrews]

Any insulation would help in my opinion. I like the reflectix because it looks nice.

I leave it on all through the boil, and take it off when I start to chill.

 

[jcglezen]

Snaps are brilliant. Mos def gonna use that one. Binder clips be gone!
Sweet setup.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Snaps are brilliant. Mos def gonna use that one. Binder clips be gone!
Sweet setup.

Thanks!

I sent a picture to the brew-bag guys and they said they were thinking about adding it as an option or something. It was really not hard to do it yourself, and it's great to not have one more thing sticking up to catch on.

 

[BeardedIdiot]

I just found this thread. I am looking at moving from gas to electric and this seems like one of the better ways of doing it rather cheaply.

Are you still happy with your controller box? Anything you would change?

Is the list of equipment you used to build it still accurate?

 

[akthor]

Your 50 amp gfci is wired to a 30 amp breaker? Doesn't that mean you're only getting 30 amps to your element? So why the 50 amp gfci?

 

[BigFloyd]

Your 50 amp gfci is wired to a 30 amp breaker? Doesn't that mean you're only getting 30 amps to your element? So why the 50 amp gfci?

A 5500W element like this - http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-Heater-Ripple-Element/dp/B000BPG4LI draws 23A at 240V, so wiring it through a 50A breaker (instead of a 30A) at the box won't change what current gets to the element, only the amperage at which the breaker overloads and trips.

Lots of folks (like me) wire a 50A GFCI spa panel into a 30A 240V circuit at the box. The ground fault circuit interrupt in the spa panel is there to cut off current very quickly to protect you. The slower breakers in the box are there mostly to protect the house i.e., prevent wires melting and fire due to circuit overload or a short.

 

[akthor]

But wouldn't it be cheaper to just use a 30 amp gfci instead of a 50?

I have to use a 50amp one since I'm going to be running 2 - 5500 watt elements concurrently.

 

[Brad2287]

But wouldn't it be cheaper to just use a 30 amp gfci instead of a 50?

I have to use a 50amp one since I'm going to be running 2 - 5500 watt elements concurrently.

Oddly enough this is rarely the case. A 30 amp gfci breaker for my breaker box was almost twice the cost of the 50 amp spa panel.

 

[BigFloyd]

Oddly enough this is rarely the case. A 30 amp gfci breaker for my breaker box was almost twice the cost of the 50 amp spa panel.

Yep. Which is why many go with the spa panel option. It was cheaper for me than a bare 50A gfci as well.

 

[akthor]

That is weird I bought the spa panel just to take the breaker out and put it in my house breaker panel. I got it on ebay tho. But you are right in looking around bare breakers cost more which seems to make no sense?

 

[BeardedBrews]

I just found this thread. I am looking at moving from gas to electric and this seems like one of the better ways of doing it rather cheaply.

Are you still happy with your controller box? Anything you would change?

Is the list of equipment you used to build it still accurate?

Sorry for the delay, I was out of town this weekend. I am still very happy with the set-up, the only changes I would make are for convenience, not function.

Having the rolling stand is nice, but I have room in the garage and it would actually be nicer to have a more permanent installation. When I do that I'll probably move the components out of the ammo box and into either a larger box on the work bench, or somehow build them directly into the bench. Having the display, switches, and connections up at working level instead of down low (18") would be nice.

The parts list is still accurate, although you may be able to shop around and save $1-2 here and there. You want to be sure to get a PID that has auto-tuning as well as manual mode, from MyPin that's the TD4 model. You can watch for a coupon from Lowes to save a few bucks on the 50A spa panel.

If I were going to start over again from scratch my build might look very much like @The_Bishop 's eBIAB with custom SS "bag". The cost is higher than my thrown-together rig, but the finished product is very sharp!

 

[The_Bishop]

Hey, thanks!

 

[Paleface]

Very nice system and very informative. I take it you are circulating through the grain bed. Are you just using the hose, or is there some kind of a sparge arm under that lid? Also are you using a false bottom of any kind? How do you keep the bag and weight of the grain off the heating element?

 

[BeardedBrews]

Very nice system and very informative. I take it you are circulating through the grain bed. Are you just using the hose, or is there some kind of a sparge arm under that lid? Also are you using a false bottom of any kind? How do you keep the bag and weight of the grain off the heating element?

Thanks!

In order:

1. Yup, recirculating during the mash, probably 50-75% of max flow rate

2. Just using the hose, I cut a hole in the layers of reflectix I'm using as a lid and just poke the tubing through. I'm guessing the hose is 5" or so above the water level. With the thin mash (3qt/lb) there is a ton of free liquid above the grain bed so I don't really worry about channeling.

3. No false bottom

4. Grain bag and grain sit right on the element. If I keep the PID at 10% or less during the mash and don't see any scorching or hear any thumping (boiling against the element). I usually use 4% to maintain temperature when the garage is cold (40F).

 

[RationalRev]

Can I assume the brew bag snaps are what keeps the bag from melting to the element?

 

[BeardedBrews]

Can I assume the brew bag snaps are what keeps the bag from melting to the element?

Nope, it's sitting right on the element. The element gets hot, but the bag is very durable. I'd worry about overheating grain before burning the bag.

 

[chisena]

Where is the thermocouple attached? For me, i found the ideal place was at the kettle outlet.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Right now it is through the side of the keg. Near the same height as the element.

I wish it was in the kettle outlet, but at the time I was feeling cheap so I took the east way out. If I keep the flow rate high during mash then the probe at the bottom reads the same as a thermometer in the pump outlet and there is no change if I stir everything all up.

 

[The_Bishop]

Hey, it took forever but I finally threw my PID settings in my post. I'm still tweaking 'em a bit.

The initial autotune was a horror show. It would overshoot 3-4 degrees and stay there.

I put it back to the factory settings and worked from there. Right now it's:
P - 450
I - 800
D - 80

interval (t) is 2.

It'll now get to mash temps, overshoot 1-2 degrees but settle back to the set temp within 5 minutes. I'm still screwing with it. Auber's instructions on what P I and D actually do are as clear as mud.

 

[Paleface]

Right now it is through the side of the keg. Near the same height as the element.

I wish it was in the kettle outlet, but at the time I was feeling cheap so I took the east way out. If I keep the flow rate high during mash then the probe at the bottom reads the same as a thermometer in the pump outlet and there is no change if I stir everything all up.

I use a Tee on the outlet with my dial thermometer inserted. The wert flows over the probe and is very accurate. You could use your temp probe in a similar way. I also use a 15" thermowell through the keggle lid that goes directly into the mash. Inkbird probe goes into the well for a direct mash temp check.

 

[BeardedBrews]

For anyone still following this thread, I made my first real mess during a mash this past weekend:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/319230/bourbon-barrel-porter

I overshot on initial mash temp, 155 vs 152, but I'll call that a non-issue especially for style.

The real problem came during re-circulation. In a previous brew I had accidentally knocked one of the snaps off of the keg so I was watching for bag slipping. I was glad I was watching because my chosen flow rate (medium high) was flooding the bag and draining the keg. At one point the liquid level outside the bag was low enough to see the element.

I popped the bag loose and gave it a few good tugs and sloshes to release the liquid back into the kettle (through the upper section of the bag) and resumed mashing at a much lower flow rate. I also did more frequent stirring just to help keep everything moving.

At the end of the mash I lifted the bag and confirmed that there was WAY more liquid stuck in the grist and bag than I was accustomed to. About 2.5 gallons of liquid hanging in 12# of grain!

After a good 20 minutes of twisting and squeezing I was able to get almost all of the liquid out, and ended up hitting my target efficiency (75% brewhouse with little left in the keg), but not before I made a savage drippy mess of the keg, stand, and garage floor.

The biggest mess was due to the large size of the bag when it was so full of liquid. Everything kept running out and hitting the lip of the keg and then running down the sides and out.

5.5 gallons of 1.064 wort made it into the fermenter and is happily blasting away at the airlock now with a big WLP-028 Starter. The garage is clean and I'm happy again.

I'll be more careful watching the bag liquid level on my next batch for sure

 

[LBussy]

Okay admittedly I'm coming back to home brewing after being off a while, and decoction with hot rocks was still all the rage when I went on sabbatical. ETD: Nevermind those questions. I missed some of your answers.

Very clean setup. The way I understand it, the only thing separating this from a no-sparge 2-vessel setup is a false bottom and a second vessel, correct?

 

[BeardedBrews]

Very clean setup. The way I understand it, the only thing separating this from a no-sparge 2-vessel setup is a false bottom and a second vessel, correct?

Thanks!

Basically, yes. I substitute the bag for the false bottom, and either insulate or apply heat (or both) to the primary vessel to avoid needing a second vessel.

It works quite well, and barring this last brew-day hiccough I think I like my setup a lot.

That said, it's bonus check season and the siren call of a straight-walled kettle is out there...

 

[BeardedBrews]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wjo6hq8kpan41rd/AAC1q1JroG5_c2Ckfg3TXxM1a?dl=0

Update time:

I brewed a basic amber last weekend and everything went very smoothly. I spent a bit of time tweaking my PID and ended up with a stable mash (±1F) without having to touch anything.

P=60 | I=1 | D=30

I have another batch coming up soon so I will see if those settings work for two in a row.

I had no problem with mash sticking or the bag flooding this time. I figure it was just that porter bill that clogged everything up.

More beer has been made

 

[BeardedIdiot]

Nice pictures. This is seriously where I'd like to end up. Super simple controller, single vessel BIAB. Main difference is I want to mainly drop down to doing 2.5gal batches with the occasional 5gal batch thrown in for special occasions/special beers.

 

[LBussy]

I spent a bit of time tweaking my PID and ended up with a stable mash (±1F) without having to touch anything.

P=60 | I=1 | D=30

I started my IT life in control systems when I thought I was going to be a mechanical engineer. I learned that when manually tuning you zero the integral and derivative gains and get your proportional where it needs to be. Most times you can get 95% of the way there without touching the others. Integral came next and I was taught to think of that like adding gas a little at a time while going up a hill if I can't keep my speed up. Derivative was when you anticipated there was going to be a need to add or remove accelerator based on what you've been doing. You can't properly anticipate (derivative) what the system needs unless the other two are at their proper settings. Most control systems I worked with could get +-1% without any derivative depending on the hysteresis impact of/on the system.

The controls aspect of brewing really interests me ... I'm just a natural geek I guess. Back then I spent MANY long nights staring at my readouts trying to be at least as smart as the perfectly good analog controls I removed. That makes me wonder if a nice analog system wouldn't be just perfect for this. Not that I would USE it, no, that's not fancy enough.

 

[BeardedBrews]

I started my IT life in control systems when I thought I was going to be a mechanical engineer. I learned that when manually tuning you zero the integral and derivative gains and get your proportional where it needs to be. Most times you can get 95% of the way there without touching the others. Integral came next and I was taught to think of that like adding gas a little at a time while going up a hill if I can't keep my speed up. Derivative was when you anticipated there was going to be a need to add or remove accelerator based on what you've been doing. You can't properly anticipate (derivative) what the system needs unless the other two are at their proper settings. Most control systems I worked with could get +-1% without any derivative depending on the hysteresis impact of/on the system.

That is very similar to the explanation I've given people, the big issue is the rate of temperature change in a mash. A RIMS tube is a great application for the PID since the temperature adjustments happen so quickly. Even the HLT is better because you don't have a huge thermal mass slowing everything down. For me, I couldn't find an I that provided an acceptable ramp stability without compromising the over-shoot.

For anyone reading this and wondering "what should I do" I would say that you should decide first what you want your system to do.

-If you want to do step mashes, or to be able to raise your mash up to mash-out temperatures, you would be better off adding a RIMS tube.

-If you don't want to add the RIMS tube, you will need to do something to keep a reasonable volume of free liquid around your element and drain. Use a basket, or a false bottom, or something like that.

-If all you want to do is heat strike water, maintain temperature on the mash, and boil, then a simple bag-and-element rig like mine will work fine.

Nice pictures. This is seriously where I'd like to end up. Super simple controller, single vessel BIAB. Main difference is I want to mainly drop down to doing 2.5gal batches with the occasional 5gal batch thrown in for special occasions/special beers.

One of the few things things I don't love in my keggle is the dead-space. It takes 3 gallons to cover the top of the element and flood the dip tube, so that's pretty much the hard minimum on the setup. If I was doing primarily 2.5g batches I would look at a flat bottom pot with a 120v element for sure. You get the flexibility of location, and you can always add an extra hot stick if you need a boost to heat strike, or get to boil.

 

[BeardedIdiot]

-If all you want to do is heat strike water, maintain temperature on the mash, and boil, then a simple bag-and-element rig like mine will work fine.

This is pretty much what I think I want/need.

One of the few things things I don't love in my keggle is the dead-space. It takes 3 gallons to cover the top of the element and flood the dip tube, so that's pretty much the hard minimum on the setup. If I was doing primarily 2.5g batches I would look at a flat bottom pot with a 120v element for sure. You get the flexibility of location, and you can always add an extra hot stick if you need a boost to heat strike, or get to boil.

I'm starting to lean towards getting a 5-6 gallon flat bottom kettle, set it up with a basic 120v element and controller, and mostly do 2.5gal eBIAB batches. If I want to do 5gal batches, I can go back out to my BIAB keggle on propane in the garage (if I don't upgrade to electric on it eventually).

 

[BeardedBrews]

Brewed again this weekend - grapefruit IPA with 13# 2-Row and 0.75# of C20. Had some minor flooding in the bag again, and somewhat poor circulation around the temperature probe. It was nothing that regular stirring couldn't handle, but it was a minor irritation. If the circulation got stopped up around the temperature probe the power would start ramping up but it wouldn't register the temp increase. Ultimately I still held within a degree, just took more attention than I wanted to give it.

I used my new 24" SS Wisk for stirring, it was awesome!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001VZ8S1Q/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'm starting to lean towards getting a 5-6 gallon flat bottom kettle, set it up with a basic 120v element and controller, and mostly do 2.5gal eBIAB batches. If I want to do 5gal batches, I can go back out to my BIAB keggle on propane in the garage (if I don't upgrade to electric on it eventually).

If I were you, I would probably look at a heat stick style, like the one BrewHardware sells. you could use it as the only heat source during your small batches, and then you could transfer it into your keggle to maintain temperature during the mash.