240 outlet toggle

[2Kegger]

I am looking at installing a toggle for a 240 outlet to run a EBIAB setup. I have an existing outlet for my dryer. I'd like to install a box with one of these 2 pole 30 amp 3 position disconnect: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PNMC52/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

With this, I'd be able to switch between outlets and install a new outlet closer to where I'm going to brew. I wouldn't have to run a long power cord over to the existing outlet. Basically, I'd have a power box with this installed, and then two power lines coming out, one to each outlet. Using the rocker, I could select which one is "hot".

Can anyone tell me if this switch would work? My concern is this in the description: Rated at 30 amp @12VDC, 16 amp @ 120VAC, 10 amp @ 250VAC. It's a 240v 30 amp outlet now.

My second question is what kind of face plate do I get for the box, or do I go with a blank and cut a hole in it?

Thanks for all the great advice on this forum!

 

[Jerz]

It's only rated at 10amps at 250V so no... that will definitely not cut it.

 

[Jerz]

I was going to say a 30amp double pole double throw disconnect was your only option but the P&S 1276 30A double pole double throw manual contoller may work... http://www.gordonelectricsupply.com...h~product~part~5600547~ds~dept~process~search

 

[BeerGrylls]

This may be a dumb question, but why not just unplug the dryer, and plug the ebiab in? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable sending 240v@30A through a switch.

 

[Bobby_M]

If a manufacturer rates a switch at 240v/30a, why wouldn't you feel comfortable? You touch 120v switches all day long and they'll kill you the same dead as the 240v.

There's a guy on Ebay selling the Bryant 3025 DPDT 240v/30a and it has a center off position too. Not horribly priced...

 

[BeerGrylls]

If a manufacturer rates a switch at 240v/30a, why wouldn't you feel comfortable? You touch 120v switches all day long and they'll kill you the same dead as the 240v.

There's a guy on Ebay selling the Bryant 3025 DPDT 240v/30a and it has a center off position too. Not horribly priced...

Putting two high power, high voltage loads on a double throw switch isn't the same as turning on a light switch. That said, there certainly are safe units that will do this, but they are expensive and specialized. Given the link OP shared, this scares the hell out of me that he's going to burn his house down. Why overcomplicate it? Unplug the dryer, plug in the brewery.

 

[sennister]

Putting two high power, high voltage loads on a double throw switch isn't the same as turning on a light switch. That said, there certainly are safe units that will do this, but they are expensive and specialized. Given the link OP shared, this scares the hell out of me that he's going to burn his house down. Why overcomplicate it? Unplug the dryer, plug in the brewery.

I tend to agree. No need to over complicate this. Sure there are expensive options but a cheaper one that would be viable is to install a sub panel where the brewery plug is going to be. If I understand what he is looking at doing is rather than run a new circuit dedicated to brewing which he probably doesn't do every day, he is going to tap into the existing dryer circuit. Well do that. Run it into a sub panel. Then have 2 x 30A breakers in there. One goes to the dryer the other a GFCI for the brewery. He is going to need that anyhow unless the breaker in the main panel is GFCI for the dryer which they normally are not. He wants to brew, open the panel right next to the brewery flip off the breaker for the dryer and on the GFCI for the brewery. I don't know how far apart the dryer and brewery are but if they are in the same room or relatively close, I wouldn't even bother with that. Just leave them both on. If the dryer isn't running, it isn't pulling 30A and he will be fine. If someone wants to do laundry they will have to wait until the brewing is done. That is the case anyhow being he wants to toggle it. The only thing the toggle or flipping the breakers would get him is the ability to know that dryer isn't running.

Heck if he wanted to get all fancy. Look at what people do when building a 30A electric brewery control panel where there are 2 elements (HLT and BK) you could use contactors in a box to select dryer or brewery much like people select HTL or BK because a 30A panel isn't big enough to run two 5500W elements at the same time. I would do this over the rocker switch listed. Relays (contactors) are designed for this reason.

 

[2Kegger]

Thank you, everyone, for your quick responses. I have to admit, electrical work is NOT something I have a lot of experience with, other than installing new lights, changing outlets, etc... That's why I thought this might be the path of least resistance for me (pun intended). Here is where I got the idea: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110307101557AAhsPpI

My issue with plugging and unplugging is that the plug is, of course, behind the washer and dryer. I'm tall, but reaching over and behind these units is a pain. My thought about using a 3 position switch is only one outlet would be live at a time. It also likely wouldn't require a permit or inspection. I'm guessing adding a sub panel would. I also don't know much about sub panels. Would I need a 30 amp sub panel (since it's wired to a 30 amp breaker in the main) with 2 30 amp breakers? I'm not opposed to this idea. I just don't know much about it.

And here is one that comes prebuilt that I found, if it helps at all with my explanation of what I was looking at.

Again, thanks for all of the advice!

 

[2Kegger]

Thank you, everyone, for your quick responses. I have to admit, electrical work is NOT something I have a lot of experience with, other than installing new lights, changing outlets, etc... That's why I thought this might be the path of least resistance for me (pun intended). Here is where I got the idea: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110307101557AAhsPpI

My issue with plugging and unplugging is that the plug is, of course, behind the washer and dryer. I'm tall, but reaching over and behind these units is a pain. My thought about using a 3 position switch is only one outlet would be live at a time. It also likely wouldn't require a permit or inspection. I'm guessing adding a sub panel would. I also don't know much about sub panels. Would I need a 30 amp sub panel (since it's wired to a 30 amp breaker in the main) with 2 30 amp breakers? I'm not opposed to this idea. I just don't know much about it.

And here is one that comes prebuilt that I found, if it helps at all with my explanation of what I was looking at.

Again, thanks for all of the advice!

Oops. Forgot the link for the prebuilt one: http://www.kegkits.com/Merchant2/me...=W&Product_Code=DO_Switch&Category_Code=CNTRL

 

[raouliii]

Oops. Forgot the link for the prebuilt one: http://www.kegkits.com/Merchant2/me...=W&Product_Code=DO_Switch&Category_Code=CNTRL

That unit probably has something like this DPDT 30amp, 240VAC, Relay in it. The toggle switch only carries the current required for the coil.

 

[2Kegger]

Ahh. Thanks. I think I've decided to go the sub panel route. I'm just a little confused on the type to get. Does it matter what the amps are (as long as it's over 30) since each circuit will have a 30 amp breaker in it, and the line has a 30 amp breaker on the main panel? would something like this work? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-12...mbination-Load-Center-BR612L125FDP/100184775# plus 2 30 amp breakers (one GFCI)?

Unfortunately, it's 10 gauge wire. I wish it were lower so I could add a 50 or 60 amp fuse to the main and not worry about it.

 

[sennister]

Ahh. Thanks. I think I've decided to go the sub panel route. I'm just a little confused on the type to get. Does it matter what the amps are (as long as it's over 30) since each circuit will have a 30 amp breaker in it, and the line has a 30 amp breaker on the main panel? would something like this work? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-125-Amp-6-space-12-circuit-Type-BR-Main-Lug-Combination-Load-Center-BR612L125FDP/100184775# plus 2 30 amp breakers (one GFCI)?

Unfortunately, it's 10 gauge wire. I wish it were lower so I could add a 50 or 60 amp fuse to the main and not worry about it.

Ok. Sub panel is probably the best option like I mentioned as you are going to want to add a GFCI breaker at some point along the way to your kettle.

I can look around later tonight to see if I can find a good option for you. The ideal panel would be a spa panel that has enough room in it for an additional 220v double breaker. This way you have power going into the panel's bus and then coming out the breakers so one comes off the GFCI breaker for the brewery. The other could come off a regular 220v 30A breaker and continue on to the dryer outlet.

You only need 30A breakers but keep in mind that the breaker brand needs to match the panel brand for the sub panel. What you have in the main panel doesn't matter but it is important that the panel maker is the same as the breaker maker or it may not fit. There is some limited cross compatibility but stick with one brand to save a headache.

I will look around later tonight when on a computer.

 

[sennister]

So if you wanted to go with the panel that you mentioned.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-12...mbination-Load-Center-BR612L125FDP/100184775#

You would want one of these which is the standard 30A breaker for the dryer.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR...ole-30-Amp-BR230/100114666?N=bm1eZ384Z1z0x9j2

Then one of these which is the 30A GFCI Breaker for the brewing gear.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-30...GFCB230CS/202276023?N=bm1eZ384Z1z0x9j2?Nao=24

Now this option you are looking at:
Panel: $25
30A: $10
30A GFCI: $107

So it would run you a total of $142

This is why Spa Panels are so popular.

It looks like if you went with this panel which comes with a 60A GFCI

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GLCYCK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

and this breaker for the dryer

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BWFNFY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Panel with GFCI: $84
30A breaker: $11

Total: $95

So the Spa panel would save you about $45.

I had to do a bit more digging with this panel. Many of the Spa Panels don't have any room for additional breakers.

This is from the description:

Murray 60 Amp spa panel comes in an outdoor rated enclosure, includes a 60 Amp two-pole GFCI breaker, and also has 2 additional spaces for extra branch circuits. A cover plate and ground bar are included. The total panel rating is 125 Amps.

 

[sennister]

This gives you an idea what it is like working on installing a Spa Panel. It should give you an idea if it is something you would want to tackle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO631_4Rz4Y

I forgot you asked about the permit. I would call and ask. If I were to guess, yeah, it probably would require one. I would be shocked if it didn't. But things like this can differ from one area to another.

 

[2Kegger]

Thank you!! This has been very helpful!

 

[2Kegger]

Would this one work? Looks like it has expansion capabilities.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60-Amp-GFI-Spa-Panel-UG412RMW260P/100567181

 

[sennister]

Would this one work? Looks like it has expansion capabilities.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60-Amp-GFI-Spa-Panel-UG412RMW260P/100567181

Looks like it would but so would this and it is a little cheaper. Some reviews mention a breaker fails on the one below so maybe because of that you want to go with the one you linked to.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Midwest-...el-Disconnect-with-GFI-UG412RMW250P/100686230

They are both Midwest Electric panels based on what I read in the review of the one you posted.

You don't need 60A GFCI As that breaker will only be used for the homebrewing and the 10Ga wire will limit you to 30A as you pointed out.

The biggest problem with Midwest Panels is that if you want to get it all from HD I can't seem to find Midwest Breakers. Now, keep in mind that while I said that you want to keep the breaker and panel brand the same. There is some cross compatibility. Maybe go in and ask them. You would one of the two panels and a 30A 240V breaker for the Dryer.

Based on the fact that the one you linked to is called a GE and a quick Google search shows that GE is compatible with Midwest makes me think that this is an acceptable substitute. If that is the case this one would work.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Lin...-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2130/100356511?N=bm1eZlo

 

[kenh]

That unit probably has something like this DPDT 30amp, 240VAC, Relay in it. The toggle switch only carries the current required for the coil.

I looked up the specs on the relay and only the NO contacts are rated at 30 Amps. The NC contacts are rated at only 3 Amps. If he's using this relay he has to be using two of them - one for each side of the switch.

 

[Bobby_M]

One reason why a double throw selector switch is the better option is that you can't leave both breakers on by mistake. The spa panels my have expansion slots but they are not down stream of the GFCI but are in parallel. I'm sure that's fine if you don't need the dryer to have GFCI, but again, you are still able to leave both breakers on at the same time and you that would definitely pull more current than the 10 gauge wire is designed for.

Since people are concerned about the safety of throwing a 240v/30a switch that is RATED for it, it seems odd that no one is worried about the ability to run 60 amps down a 30amp line.

I'm not an electrician so don't listen to me, but if this was my project, I'd put the 50amp Home Depot spa panel in the line first, then mount a Bryant 3025 switch right into that panel to switch the load (downstream of the GFCI) to either the dryer outlet or the brewery outlet. If there is any problem with the dryer tripping the GFCI, you can still rewire the DPDT switch to switch prior to the GFCI without incurring additional cost.

This keeps the cost of the whole project to around $100.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/3025I-Bryan...826?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232dc6e4fa

If for some weird reason people continue to worry about using a switch that is rated for this type of use, the next option is to use two contactors with a lower voltage SPST rating to energize either of them. You'll need a larger separate box for this though, something like the Carlon 6 x 6 x 4. Here are the cheapest rated contactors that I'm aware of at $12 each:

http://www.elecdirect.com/product/d4913cab-a462-4d15-81ec-98a05f900e0e.aspx
You can use just about any 120v SPDT switch to activate either contactor.



I haven't seen the inside of this one, but I'm assuming there's enough room for the switch http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-50-Amp-Spa-Panel-BR-Type-BR50SPA/100206043#

By the way, linking to the kegkits website for any reason at all is just doing a disservice to anyone that may see it and make the mistake of supporting a known criminal.

 

[Bobby_M]

Putting two high power, high voltage loads on a double throw switch isn't the same as turning on a light switch. That said, there certainly are safe units that will do this, but they are expensive and specialized. Given the link OP shared, this scares the hell out of me that he's going to burn his house down. Why overcomplicate it? Unplug the dryer, plug in the brewery.

Bryant isn't exactly a no-name Chinese import company. The 3025 is UL listed as being safe for 30a @ up to 277 volts. I'm baffled by the concern here. Can you tell me what danger there is that UL missed? I agree that most people asking questions about electrical on this forum are highly likely to burn the house down or some other mishap, but we're talking about hypothetically using a specific device for some hypothetical use right?

 

[Jerz]

I agree Bobby... I don't see the point in relying on a breaker to trip if both loads are on at the same time.

 

[BeerGrylls]

Bryant isn't exactly a no-name Chinese import company. The 3025 is UL listed as being safe for 30a @ up to 277 volts. I'm baffled by the concern here. Can you tell me what danger there is that UL missed? I agree that most people asking questions about electrical on this forum are highly likely to burn the house down or some other mishap, but we're talking about hypothetically using a specific device for some hypothetical use right?

Look, I'm not trying to get into it with you. It just set off huge alarms when the OP shows up to put an ebiab system through the unit he shared in the OP, as I said before, and is cheap chinese junk: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PNMC52/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 electrical fires are the real deal and people should always walk with caution, especially with high-power loads, and especially when they're not trained. I think we can all agree that with the proper equipment and the proper design, it can be done.

 

[Bobby_M]

Look, I'm not trying to get into it with you. ,...I think we can all agree that with the proper equipment and the proper design, it can be done.

What I was challenging you on was the blanket statement about not putting 240v/30a through a switch. I showed a switch that was acceptable to benefit the OP and anyone else thinking about doing this. You stuck to the idea that it shouldn't be done and I wanted to know why. Fair enough question I thought. Sorry if that feels like I'm starting a flame war or something.

 

[BeerGrylls]

So as to not clutter this thread with useless back and forth, my advice to you, OP, is that electricity, especially higher voltage / higher current applications such as this, is potentially dangerous. It can be done, as others have suggested, but I would suggest that if you're less than 100% confident, solicit an electrician.

 

[2Kegger]

Thanks again for all of the advice. One last (hopefully) question. The power I have coming in to the dryer is running on a E18679 (UL) AWG 10 CU 2 CDR with AWG 10 ground. I think it's 3 wire (I haven't taken apart the outlet yet to look). Is that going to be a problem to hook up to a spa panel and then run a 4 wire out of the GFCI breaker? I know I sound like a total novice. Sorry.

 

[2Kegger]

Nevermind. I finally got the right set of words to find this post: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/spa-panel-wiring-dummies-266751/

#2 has a picture from P-J and is exactly what I was looking for. It's even the panel I was looking at.