2000w not enough for 4G, other ideas?

[alphaomega]

@LarMoeCur: That is speculative at best. Yes, there will be some condensation, but not enough that it will matter. Most of the steam *will* escape.

 

[augiedoggy]

Today was my first test boil on my electric BIAB system in a 8G kettle. I do 4G boils for a 3G batch into the fermenter. I chose to do a 2000W element in the kettle thinking it would be fine for my batch size (and I only have 120V/20A circuit).

During my test boil today I was only able to hit a max of 205F with my PID set to manual and 100%. The water was boiling but it was a light boil.

I do not think I have enough water level for a straight heat stick but I might be able to use a hot rod from brewhardware.com with a 1500w element on a second circuit but I can not invest in that at the moment.

It is a little disappointing because it seemed like the water heated up to around 200F quickly but it needs a little help. Do you think a 1000w to 1200w hotplate/single electric burner under the kettle would help get it up to 210 or 212?

you need to check the element with an ohmeter.. just because its advertised and sold as 2000w doesnt mean it really is... It just means it was over 1500w so they couldnt sell it as that.

I had a 4500w element that was actually only 4050 watts..

you can also try leaving the lid partially on like texaswine does..

 

[augiedoggy]

Not true. Trapping evaporation with a lid, the DMS will condense on the lid and drop right back into the wort.

Do not boil with the lid on. I can see getting up to boil temperature with a lid but I say again...DO NOT boil with the lid on.

all the larger microbrewing brewing systems I'm looking at all boil with a lid and a condenstate stack or pipe... just saying..

 

[Sadu]

Can you add another 2000w element and run it off a different circuit in the house?

I have a 2000w element in my 2.5G kettle, it works well but I wouldn't want to try to boil too much more volume with it.

 

[LarMoeCur]

all the larger microbrewing brewing systems I'm looking at all boil with a lid and a condenstate stack or pipe... just saying..

I'll bet that condensate stack or pipe has a lip along the bottom to collect the condensate not allowing it to return to the wort.

Every book written about brewing in the last 100 years recommends boiling with the lid off. I've heard almost all of the top homebrewing minds in the industry recommend against covering the boil.

It may or may not result in higher amounts if DMS. Trust me...I've read the test and studies. You are boiling to drive off unwanted compounds why leave any avenue for these impurities to return.

To me it's just not a good practice and if the OP wasn't having boil issues we would not have recommended covering the boil. A weak boil is probably more likely to lead to DMS. Covering the kettle to achieve a weak boil is not a fix to better beer.

I'll concede that I maybe incorrect because we are way off topic

 

[TexasWine]

To me it's just not a good practice and if the OP wasn't having boil issues we would not have recommended covering the boil. A weak boil is probably more likely to lead to DMS. Covering the kettle to achieve a weak boil is not a fix to better beer.

Sometimes these off topic discussions are the most fun.

I can boil my wort no problem with the lid off. I choose not to because in my home brewery a partially covered boil kettle actually is best practice. It allows for a reasonable level of agitation from the boil at a lower power setting of my elements, ensuring proper hop utilization, all while helping to control boil off and minimizing thermal stress on the wort. You'll find no erupting wort volcanoes in my BK, just a nice simmer. So yes, I cover to achieve a weak (but sufficient) boil, on purpose.

I'd actually recommend that everyone at least give it a try, especially on their lighter colored beers. Dial the power back (gas or electric) and try to control that boil off.

 

[alphaomega]

What @TexasWine said. There are obvious benefits to boil with lid on. I'd like to add to the list; no insects/airborne particles landing in the wort.
Of course larger breweries trap the condensate. Because they can. The condensate is not desirable, I'll agree to that. BUT the main reasons for DMS in homebrew as I understand it, is short/insufficient boil and/or slow cooling of the wort post boil.
I'm pretty convinced that the benefits of boiling with lid on outweigh the drawbacks (if any).

 

[LarMoeCur]

@alphaomega - if the wort is boiling it has a protective layer of steam rolling over the top. Pushing out of the kettle not in. Only a very heavy particle would be able to penetrate the steam and land in the wort. I don't brew under a tree and I would wager that most Homebrewers don't either. If a dust particle happens to fly through 212F degree steam and then land in 212F wort...it's been neutralized...and will have zero affect on the beer. And even if a bug lands in the boiling wort it will not affect the beer. It's boiling and breaking down proteins bug guts is just another protein at that point and can be easily fished out with a spoon. I would only be worried at temps below 160F and at that point completely covering is fine.

I can understand a partially covered pot but not a fully covered. To me when I read "lid on" that is a fully covered kettle. Now "lid 1/3 on" or "1/2 on" reads partially covered kettle. We maybe in agreement but the typed words have once again limited the discussion.

Every How to book I've read has a similar statement. Every beginners pod cast I've listen to warns against "fully" covered boils. Again boils down to best practices...fully covering boils is not a best practice.

John Palmer- How to Brew.
"Once you achieve a boil, only partially cover the pot, if at all. Why? Because in wort there are sulfur compounds that evolve and boil off. If they aren't removed during the boil, the can form dimethyl sulfide which contributes a cooked cabbage or corn-like flavor to the beer. If the cover is left on the pot, or left on such that the condensate from the lid can drip back in, then these flavors will have a much greater chance of showing up in the finished beer."

 

[alphaomega]

@LarMoeCur: I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here, it is fine if you disagree (or partially agree, or whatever), I'm just arguing my position here.

Insects and dust won't ruin the beer, I agree. But I'd still prefer to have as little possible of 'em. It's not like they're positives either.

Lid on, or lid partially on that is just semantics to me. Even with the lid fully on, steam *will* escape, or you've built yourself a bomb.

And yes. I assure you, I'm very much aware of the old 'brewing truths'. I've also believed them blindly. But I also know, that a lot of ppl boil, lid on, without issues. I read on another forum, a guy who tried to force DMS through dripback. He installed his immersion chiller just below the lid, and blasted cold water through it during the boil, trying to knock back as much steam as he could. He couldn't detect DMS in the finished beer as I recall.
Edit: To be perfectly clear here, he probably still had significant boil off.

I've been trying to find that thread later on, but I guess my google-fu is not strong enough.
Sure, that is not like that is hard science or anything, but from what I can tell, there really isn't much evidence, that on a home brewing scale, boiling with lid on, really has any correlation with DMS.

Now, I'm not saying DMS is bogus. It is real. I just don't think that boiling with lid on is a concern. I'm not even saying that boiling with lid on is better. I'm saying it certainly has it pros though, but do what you feel comfortable with, I'm not trying to make you change your process. It would be totally cool though, if maybe you could at least consider that covered boil equals DMS, might not be an absolute truth...

 

[LarMoeCur]

@Alphaomega: No worries. We are definitely not fighting. We are debating a point of view.

I know I'm small in the big realm of the home brewing world but I'm always trying to improve my beers. The biggest names in the home brewing world. The guys that have 20 beers in the second round of the Nationals say don't boil with the lid on. That's good enough for me. I've won a club round or two so who am I to argue with world class brewers. I'm quite ok with you boiling with your lid on. I just won't do it. Or will I recommend to any other brewer to do it. I think fixing the original post power issues would be a better than telling him to put a lid on the boil. Lacking the BTUs to boil sufficiently is a real problem and putting the band aid fix of putting a lid on the kettle is not the answer.

 

[alphaomega]

I think fixing the original post power issues would be a better than telling him to put a lid on the boil. Lacking the BTUs to boil sufficiently is a real problem and putting the band aid fix of putting a lid on the kettle is not the answer.

Well it's ok, then we just disagree
If you have an insufficient boil, putting the lid on (partly, or fully) is an easy and IMHO good fix. And will cost nothing to try. A covered, but good boil is certainly better than an uncovered near-boil.

You know, if you scrape your knee, a band aid fix IS the proper fix. Knee surgery is just not called for. A simple fix can in fact be preferrable to a complex one.

I don't think you're wrong in listening to advice from accomplished brewers, that is a good idea most of the time. Everything isn't black or white though, some things are down to preference, some things are just down to guesstimations that has become accepted as 'best practice' (possibly without solid grounds).
So, do listen, but be don't just accept everything said as absolute truth. It might be best practice now, but progress is made by challenging old dogma.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. There are 100 different ways to skin a cat!

 

[processhead]

So did the OP ever measure the actual resistance of his heating element? Or the actual voltage being supplied to the terminals of the element?
As was mentioned, I think this needs to be confirmed to address his weak boil issue.

 

[BrunDog]

So did the OP ever measure the actual resistance of his heating element? Or the actual voltage being supplied to the terminals of the element?
As was mentioned, I think this needs to be confirmed to address his weak boil issue.

Agree again with this. Measure the voltage here and at the source to look for a large discrepancy. Power doesn't magically disappear.. if it is being generated (heat), it's got only one place to go.

 

[ba-brewer]

For boiling, I am running in manual mode on PID (Auberins) at 100%.
.

Which PID are you using? I have an EZboil and there is an option setting which backs the power down as the temp approaches boiling to help prevent boil overs. Not sure if this option is also done on other PIDs, but check the manual.

 

[augiedoggy]

Which PID are you using? I have an EZboil and there is an option setting which backs the power down as the temp approaches boiling to help prevent boil overs. Not sure if this option is also done on other PIDs, but check the manual.

Very true I was surprised when mine did it the first time since I thought something was wrong.

 

[ZmannR2]

Which PID are you using? I have an EZboil and there is an option setting which backs the power down as the temp approaches boiling to help prevent boil overs. Not sure if this option is also done on other PIDs, but check the manual.

What is that power setting???? Because I have a 5kW boilcoil that won't boil even 6 gals! It seems like the second it hits 209 it backs off!

 

[ZmannR2]

Found it!!!!!! I bet this is the OP's problem too!

 

[augiedoggy]

To be fair guys if your switching to manual pwm mode for the boil (which you really should be for an even consistent controlled boil and consistent boil off rates) you shouldnt see this problem.

 

[augiedoggy]

What is that power setting???? Because I have a 5kW boilcoil that won't boil even 6 gals! It seems like the second it hits 209 it backs off!

its programed that way to prevent a boil over because thats when your supposed to switch to manual power and go to something like 75%...

 

[ZmannR2]

Ok well I disabled it for now until I can find the exact temperature at which a good steady boil is achieved. I hope the OP reads this solution as I'm pretty sure this is his problem!

Thanks so much ba-brewer!!

 

[bignick270]

So my Auber PID is SYL-2352, not an EZ-Boil.

I do change it to manual mode for the boil, i will double check to make sure I have it manually changed to 100% ( could be something I overlooked).

After looking at the manual for the SYL-2352 and thinking about it, when I change to manual mode for boil, I do not think I ever pressed the "Set" button to change display mode to percentage. I think I just bumped the temp up and change to manual mode by pressing the A/M and verify by the A/M led and my current probe showing 16 A. Would that automatically set to 100% pwm?

 

[ba-brewer]

@ZmannR2 Glad to see you found the option and found some use of my comment.

I don't recall my issue, but I disable the feature. Reading the description of the feature it is unclear how it is intended to work, but it seems like it would be more useful if Bout controlled the output power once the Bast temp was reached.

 

[ba-brewer]

So my Auber PID is SYL-2352, not an EZ-Boil.

I do change it to manual mode for the boil, i will double check to make sure I have it manually changed to 100% ( could be something I overlooked).

After looking at the manual for the SYL-2352 and thinking about it, when I change to manual mode for boil, I do not think I ever pressed the "Set" button to change display mode to percentage. I think I just bumped the temp up and change to manual mode by pressing the A/M and verify by the A/M led and my current probe showing 16 A. Would that automatically set to 100% pwm?

I have not used that PIDs so cant really say how it works, but according to the manual section 5.4.3 the power setting when going into manual mode is what ever percentage it was in PID mode just before switching.

 

[ZmannR2]

Welp. I thought the BAST function was holding me back and now I'm still topping out at 209 degrees. And I have a 240V 5000W boilcoil and filling it only with 5 gals of water. It should be destroying that water. Anyone have any other ideas???

It gets to 209 very fast and suddenly stalls

 

[ZmannR2]

I'm thinking that regular water doesn't really boil that vigorously. When you boil the wort it'll be much more vigorous

 

[ba-brewer]

I'm thinking that regular water doesn't really boil that vigorously. When you boil the wort it'll be much more vigorous

You said you are using a boilcoil, if that is the blickman boilcoil those seem to have a pretty low power density so maybe with the power being distributed over a larger area it looks less vigorous.

The initial part of the boil wort does seems to behave different than water but once the break drops I think they look about the same in my kettle.

I have two short 1500W(70WPI) elements and the surface directly over the elements shows the most activity while boiling.

 

[ZmannR2]

Yes it's a BoilCoil 20. We'll damn that's just weird. But ok I guess that's how they're designed.

 

[ZmannR2]

I'm pretty pissed about this boilcoil. I went all out n bought a 5000W element that can hardly make a rolling boil

 

[Btaz]

I'm pretty pissed about this boilcoil. I went all out n bought a 5000W element that can hardly make a rolling boil

Can you bypass the PID and connect the element directly to the outlet (with GFCI). also try emailing the company for suggestions.