2000w not enough for 4G, other ideas?

[bignick270]

Today was my first test boil on my electric BIAB system in a 8G kettle. I do 4G boils for a 3G batch into the fermenter. I chose to do a 2000W element in the kettle thinking it would be fine for my batch size (and I only have 120V/20A circuit).

During my test boil today I was only able to hit a max of 205F with my PID set to manual and 100%. The water was boiling but it was a light boil.

I do not think I have enough water level for a straight heat stick but I might be able to use a hot rod from brewhardware.com with a 1500w element on a second circuit but I can not invest in that at the moment.

It is a little disappointing because it seemed like the water heated up to around 200F quickly but it needs a little help. Do you think a 1000w to 1200w hotplate/single electric burner under the kettle would help get it up to 210 or 212?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Do you think a 1000w to 1200w hotplate/single electric burner under the kettle would help get it up to 210 or 212?

If a flat bottomed kettle, probably so.

Do have the capacity for another electric load addition?

I know a small Propane burner will give the "bump" you seek.....

 

[pocketmon]

Evaporation will absorb heat, and it is easier in the wide and shallow geometry, which provides more surface for that to happen.
A simple solution will be using cover and leave a gap. You can adjust the gap to get best result.

Read the description of this item, you will know what I am talking about.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/copper-hood-50l-braumeister.html

BTW, calibrate your thermometer.

 

[Weezy]

2kw should be plenty for 4G. Is your element 2kw at 120V or 240v? I only need 1.5kw on my induction cooker to maintain a nice roll on 4G.

 

[bignick270]

Thanks for the feedback!

If a flat bottomed kettle, probably so.

It is a fairly flat bottom, can't say that I have looked at how flat it is. I am in a utility room off of a garage so I am not considering propane.

Evaporation will absorb heat, and it is easier in the wide and shallow geometry, which provides more surface for that to happen.
A simple solution will be using cover and leave a gap. You can adjust the gap to get best result.

So you saying to place a lid on the kettle that has a large enough opening to vent. DMS worries?

BTW, calibrate your thermometer.

Good idea. I did not do this. Maybe there is a chance I was closer to 212F than 205F. Still not a decent boil though.

2kw should be plenty for 4G. Is your element 2kw at 120V or 240v? I only need 1.5kw on my induction cooker to maintain a nice roll on 4G.

It is 2kw at 120V

 

[alphaomega]

I wouldn't worry about DMS. I will evaporate, even with a lid.

 

[pocketmon]

Do you check the hood of braumeister? You can also check the lid of grainfather.
There is no DMS issue in both systems.
FYI, I am an ex-owner of Grainfather, and I know the difference of using lid.

 

[singybrue]

Boiling may not be 212 depending on your elevation and current climatic conditions. Boiling for me is 209/210.
Also, you may need to reset your boil expectations. It seems like most people like to crank a gas burner for a huge volcanic boil, because you can.
All you need is a gentle rolling boil.

 

[Horseflesh]

Boiling point in Denver is 203 and they still make beer. You might not have anything to worry about.

 

[drewsbrew8155]

Insulation and a lid would help achieve boil. Once the the wort is boiling, the lid can then be cracked to allow the steam to roll out.

 

[augiedoggy]

The dimensions of the kettle play a big part too. Taller narrow kettles are a lot more efficient with less heat loss out the top this is why the grain father and robobrew and the like use them.

 

[Horseflesh]

It can't hurt to verify that the system is working correctly. Maybe the element or driver is weak. It's unlikely but it's easy to check with this spreadsheet.

http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.xls

Check the water temperature, crank the element to 100%, let the temperature increase 5-10 degrees, and see if the time it takes to rise is close to the spreadsheet's prediction. If not, there could be a hardware fault.

You can probably use the spreadsheet in Google Sheets or LibreOffice if you don't have Excel.

 

[pocketmon]

People in the forum seem to believe that vigor boiling is necessary.
However, I found some interesting information from Picobrew. I am not sure if what they claim is true, but I didn't find review against it. Anybody find some?

https://www.picobrew.com/About/FAQ_Zymatic.cshtml
"
The Zymatic® typically maintains a temperature just below boil. This near boil occurs in the heat exchanger, adjunct compartments and keg. Through testing we have found that there is nothing magical about boiling - it's just traditional since beer was created a long time before thermometers and process controls. In a conventional homebrew system, boiling is important since the temperature control is not as precise - keeping the entire batch at 207° steadily for an hour is impossible for most home brew systems. Also in home brew systems, a vigorous boil ensures mixing of the wort. In the Zymatic®, this mixing is done by circulating the wort. We have run extensive testing for hops extraction, off flavors and clarity, and have found no detraction from having a “boil” temperature slightly less than boil.
"

 

[ba-brewer]

What are the dimensions of your kettle and the construction? I think a narrower kettle and none triply bottom helps with electric brewing.

If it is sort of wide that can effect how well the boil looks/works. I was doing 5 gal batches(7gals+) in my 15gal tall boy(magic 1.2:1 ratio) with two 1500W hotrods and needed to add insulation to get a decent looking boil. I switched to a bayou classic 11gal kettle and don't need insulation and can drop down to 75% power(2250W) and still get a decent looking boil.

When I heat water in my 8gal wide kettle with a single 1500W element there is a 5-10 degree temp between the outside edge vs the center of the kettle where the element is located.

If you do a test boil with a little pinch of hops or crushed grain in the water you can get a visual of how well the water circulates

 

[whovous]

I know it is not in your budget at present, but let me offer my two cents anyway. My kettle is six gallon and I try to get as close as I can to five gallons at the boil. A single element leads to a pretty anemic boil with 120V in the kitchen. I ordered a hot rod with a really long cable to enable plugging it into a different room on a different circuit. The hot rod is clearly made for a larger kettle, and the weight of the extension cord wants to tip it over until I hook the cable over a cabinet knob or two.

With both elements at full strength, the boil is actually too vigorous, so once it gets going, I dial back the in-kettle element. If and when your budget permits, I'd recommend you try the same thing.

 

[bignick270]

Update...

Went ahead with my first batch on the system. I left the lid partially on and was able to get closer to a full boil.

Btw i do have 2 layers of insulation on it.

Now my next problem is why my 1.062 recipe came out at 1.090? Whoops.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Boil temp @ the elevation here, approx. 190 degrees.

 

[Horseflesh]

Now my next problem is why my 1.062 recipe came out at 1.090? Whoops.

That is a good problem to have, but I'd be suspicious of a measurement error. If it's legit, congrats!

 

[BrunDog]

Are you using an extension cord? Cheap ones will rob and/or limit power. I would measure current and voltage through and across the element to see if you are really sinking 2kW worth of power into the wort.

 

[ZmannR2]

Man there's somethng else going on here....you sure your PID isn't shutting off at too low of a temp once it's reached?

 

[Smellyglove]

2KW should be enough for a 4G boil. Are you sure you're getting 2kW into the element?

There is no need to make the boil seem like a very vigorous boil, some movement just above a nice simmer is enough. If you can target at least 8% evaporation you have a nice boil unless your kettle is extremely wide.

 

[Jeff_T]

Just brewed a batch last night on the 1600W Mash and Boil and had 4gal on a solid rolling boil. I've done 6.25g boils as well, you've def got enough power. I hit boil at about 197F

 

[Kwitty]

I've seen several boils in cold garages, no insulation on the kettle with a little less than 2000w. You're missing something. I think Weezy was on to something. A 240v heater doesn't put out full power with 120v. Double check you have the right element. Maybe you were sold the wrong one?

 

[bignick270]

So first off the crazy OG numbers I tracked down to improper BIAB absorption settings in BeerSmith 2 which gave me not enough starting water. It must of been something i changed a while back accidentally. I thought my mash was a little thick at the time.

So for my setup:
Double roll insulation on kettle
For boiling, I am running in manual mode on PID (Auberins) at 100%.
No extension cord
120V into control panel, all 12 gauge wire. Short power cable to outlet and short dedicated circuit run to the panel.
Maybe 6ft or less power cable from control panel to element, 12AWG.
I have a current sensor in my panel on the element power and it is around 16.8A when running. According to my ohm's law knowledge that checks out for a 2000w element ( 2000 / 16.8 = 119V ).
Now one thing I been thinking about is my temp sensor is like 2.5" long and probably should be a little closer to the element so it may be a few degrees off, so it maybe closer to 210ish. When I mash I recirculate so hopefully that would help to reduce the thermal difference (my pickup is near the probe).

Next brew, I will try to read the temperature near the element with an instant-read thermometer.

 

[Smellyglove]

Sorry, bad post. had to re-read.

 

[shoo]

Is the element rated 2000W @ 120V or 240V?

If it's @240V, then you are giving it 1000W.

Small correction: If it's rated 2000W @ 240V, you're giving it 500W @ 120V. Edit: However, the Amps you are drawing seem exactly right for 2000W @ 120V, so that's probably not the problem.

 

[Smellyglove]

Small correction: If it's rated 2000W @ 240V, you're giving it 500W @ 120V. Edit: However, the Amps you are drawing seem exactly right for 2000W @ 120V, so that's probably not the problem.

I edited my post after reading the one I quoted..

Can you pls show me why 500W and not 1000W like I wrote before my edit?

 

[shoo]

I edited my post after reading the one I quoted..

Can you pls show me why 500W and not 1000W like I wrote before my edit?

Power = Voltage * Current
Current = Voltage / Resistance
Substituting in, Power = Voltage^2 / Resistance

Resistance is constant, so if you reduce voltage by a factor of 1/2, you reduce power by a factor of (1/2)^2, or 1/4. So running an element which uses 2000W @ 240V will use 1/4 of that (500W) @ 120V

Edit: The thing that confuses most people here is that current isn't constant when you change voltage, as it ALSO changes. The only thing that stays constant is the resistance, since it's the same resistor (i.e. the element) regardless of how you power it.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I wouldn't worry about DMS. I will evaporate, even with a lid.

Not true. Trapping evaporation with a lid, the DMS will condense on the lid and drop right back into the wort.

Do not boil with the lid on. I can see getting up to boil temperature with a lid but I say again...DO NOT boil with the lid on.

 

[Mybuddypete]

Regarding Lid on/off: http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/31/the-boil-lid-on-vs-lid-off-exbeeriment-results/