2 x 2 16 gauge - OK for 15+ gallons?

[user 246304]

Guys, it's looking like I may end up having to do this thing myself. Not a bad thing, just a longer thing.

Yes, still considering the pros and cons I've heard on which steel. Though I'm about 80% ss, I'd say. I do recall the blue cast of my keggles, but also recently recalled seeing 3 Floyds direct-firing their kettle (if both memory now and my original memory, serves right).

So, whether I end up welding it or not (still going through that as well - I'd sure like to learn), I'd thought to acquire the metal and cut it to spec. Can anyone recommend what I should be looking for? Do I understand correctly, that a miter saw with a cutting blade will fry the saw?

I'd like the stand to have a lot of miter cuts - no open ends. So any help on what to use to cut 16 gauge (let's presume SS), much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

I used an old Ryobi 10" chop saw like this one with a cutting wheel.

Made fast work of all the cuts, no drama involved, and it could make a thousand more.
Like every other cutting tool it can be abused and cooked, but if you let the wheel do its thing without leaning your whole weight on the saw it'll work just fine.

The horizontal tubing running at the top of my stand is 45°F mitered at the corners. Every other joint is a butt. No cookies, coupons, scabs or caps. The only open tube ends are where the caster inserts are installed.

An uncoated shot for reference...


Cheers!

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

....what is it you're afraid will happen, with only the three supporting members?

 

[user 246304]

I used an old Ryobi 10" chop saw like this one with a cutting wheel.

Made fast work of all the cuts, no drama involved, and it could make a thousand more.
Like every other cutting tool it can be abused and cooked, but if you let the wheel do its thing without leaning your whole weight on the saw it'll work just fine.

The horizontal tubing running at the top of my stand is 45°F mitered at the corners. Every other joint is a butt. No cookies, coupons, scabs or caps. The only open tube ends are where the caster inserts are installed.

An uncoated shot for reference...
View attachment 420181

Cheers!

Perfect, thanks, trippr!

I don't think I've seen this one in its entirety. That rig is gleaming, and inspires me. More than half of me is saying, as crazy as this is, to do this in as many steps as needed, even if it pushes me back in time. Search and acquire the stainless, cut it, learn to TIG, TIG it, assemble the components (burners, shields, gas manifold, casters). If Socal is on the money, and trying to MIG stainless is ill-advised, then seems TIG is the only way in. Did you TIG this yourself? And it looks polished?

 

[user 246304]

....what is it you're afraid will happen, with only the three supporting members?

Just not as comfortable stirring 160 lbs of hit material when it sort of hangs over a ledge (compared to the diamond style, where it's definitely not going anywhere). I'm sure it's fine. And the dropped-horizontal member design solves a lot of problems.

 

[user 246304]

Ha! I think I just came across the same auction, trippr -

RYOBI "TS-251U" 10" MITER SAW

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Did you TIG this yourself? And it looks polished?

I gas-MIG'd it myself, after grinding all the mill scale off the tubing.
Epic pita btw that most would consider senseless given that gleam ended up under the VHT coating.
I have my compulsions to blame for that

Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

I gas-MIG'd it myself, after grinding all the mill scale off the tubing.
Epic pita btw that most would consider senseless given that gleam ended up under the VHT coating.
I have my compulsions to blame for that

Cheers!

Worth doing, worth doing right. Piece of art!

 

[user 246304]

Well, looks like the road has been decided. The welder didn't work out and I let him know today I was going another way. I'll have to weld this myself, and that means mild. Not so bad - I just came across a neighborhood friend, a builder who does everything (he was actually managing the roofing of another neighbor), told him what I'm up to and he said he's got "4 different welding machines" in his garage, though he wasn't sure one was a MIG (he doesn't weld. He just has a ton of stuff). Then he came back as I was walking away and said, "actually, I do have a flux core." He's giving it to me to use as long as I want, so that means plenty of practice, too.

Metal is $198. I don't have a miter saw or horizontal bandsaw, so I'll probably have the metal supplier cut to spec, which I don't think will be bad. So all in, for likely under $300. Pretty good, I think.

I am asking our local tech college about enrolling as an outside/no-professional program student in welding courses (they formerly said no, but they're asking around the admin. to try to allow it), and I'd like to start with oxy as I understand it's a good prereq for TIG. So, mild on this one, and if it gets to that, ss on the next one!

 

[day_trippr]

Ask your builder friend if he has a chop saw in his collection of stuff he never uses
You've seen my frame in the raw, and everything I know about welding I learned on Youtube.
It's an amazing resource...

Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

Thank you trippr. You know, it's funny you say that, as I was thinking of both you, and this idea, as I was walking home today just after seeing him! But I felt too shy about saying, "Hey Tim, do you happen to have a chop saw too?, lol!!!

I pledged beer. Now I think I'll have to pledge two.

 

[user 246304]

Crap. Rains, pours, etc. Snow and cold is coming very quickly and noob that I am, hadn't even taken this into account when planning to weld this frame in our garage. We rent, and it's an uninsulated garage. For two seconds I searched online to find a way to safely weld indoors (our basement), until I snapped out of it. Would prefer not to buy a large heater, for this one project. This is 14 ga. mild 2 x 2. I presume cold is a problem (I don't have a torch, or any means to heat the metal)?

Also: in a word, does flux core suck? It's what I did those many years ago, for the first frame, and yes, it was ugly. I'm certain it was my lack of experience and skill. But I understand it's also kind of an ugly process anyway, with slag to remove, splatter and smoke. I guess I'm asking, does it produce a good, strong weld on this metal thickness, even if ugly - or should I see about getting a gas-MIG setup for my friend's unit?

Or, another possibility I've been thinking about, just wait till spring, practice, and get into TIG and have the flexibility to do whatever?

Open-ended and leading questions, I know; just seeing what you experienced welders might think about any of this.

 

[user 246304]

Add-in: Can this Ryobi Miter be turned into a decent mitering saw (only angle: 45) for 14 ga 2 x 2, even if it dies after the job? I'd like to limit post cut clean up and get a clean cut. I know these can drift but I plan on taking it as slow as possible, if that makes a difference. Might be asking too much, just trying to limit as much outlay as possible and avoid a dry cut, bandsaw, etc. I'm not averse to using a hacksaw; it's what I did on my first rig. Talk about slow.....you haven't seen me wield a hand tool.....lol.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I've never tried to cut steel with a wood saw, because I've always had access to heavy machine shop equipment, wet band cutoff saws and such.

We bought a cold saw, similar to your Ryobi, much heavier, slower, built for cutting steel. $1200 or so IIRC. We bought it for cutting 8" dia solid steel that was too heavy to move around much.

It worked fine until we tried to use it on square tubing. Pretty much wrecked it in a week or so.

The problem is, first the blade sees 2" steel. Then it breaks through and the teeth are hitting two thin edges, one tooth at a time, at near supersonic speed. Then back to 2" steel. Hard on the ears, fatal to the blade and bearings.

Lacking a wet bandsaw, I'd purchase a cheap import abrasive chop saw. Much more likely to finish the job before dying. Just don't buy your cutoff wheels where you get the saw, buy good ones at the big diy store.

Gloves, goggles, face shield, hearing protection, of course. The fire out the back side is unnerving at first, got to pay attention to where it goes.

If you managed to stick two pieces of metal together with flux core wire, you'll be an expert in no time with MIG.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

get a cheap abrasive saw or a harbor freight 4x6 dry bandsaw. If you go abrasive just don't force the blade. Let it do the work to minimize drift.

 

[day_trippr]

Add-in: Can this Ryobi Miter be turned into a decent mitering saw (only angle: 45) for 14 ga 2 x 2, even if it dies after the job?[...]

That looks like a newer version of the old Ryobi 10" I fitted a cutting wheel to and cut up all the parts for my stand, including all the mitered corners.
You found an ad for my model and they look pretty similar from here. Should work just fine.

Cheers!

 

[ancientmariner52]

Day_trippr, are you referring to an abrasive wheel?

Gadjobrinus, I always defer to actual experience. Forget all my speculations. Didn't expect the Ryobi to have enough power to pull a cutoff wheel. Clearly, I was wrong.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, exactly. I used an inexpensive Diablo wheel from Home Depot.

It made very nice cuts through 1-1/2" square 14 ga mild and quite quickly at that.
I definitely recommend setting up outdoors though. I did some cutting in my shop while practicing the whole measure-cut-tack-weld process and there was metal dust all over. Not the first time I made a hella mess out of my shop
I cut the actual stand parts outside...

Cheers!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

1. The metal dust will get everywhere.
2. Don't breathe that **** in. It is not good for you. Use a respirator of some kind. I would also advise against welding without a P100 welding rated respirator. The fumes are no bueno. They are cheap (<$30) and worth it in the long run.

 

[user 246304]

Alright thanks guys, for all your help. Haven't heard back from the Ryobi CL guy so he might have sold it, but will keep looking.

Brings up this noob question - I don't know I'll be able to find a place to weld warm, certainly won't be our garage. For mild steel, welding in cold weather, do you still risk - what is it, forget, either H2 getting to it, or egress - cracking and weld root failure, pretty serious development in the middle of 3 full vessels? One of the books simply says "mild steel can resist the effect more easily," I paraphrase. That's all I've found, except a blanket thing on the web, don't weld cold metal. Suggestions, in the absence of a torch? Spring, lol?

 

[ancientmariner52]

It is unusual to get crystallization in mild steel. It requires carbon, and 1018 steel just doesn't have enough. The welding wire has a bit more, but I've never had problems welding outdoors in all weathers. Of course it doesn't get much below freezing here.

If you want to be sure, use a heat gun to preheat your metal, and to slow cooling of the welds.

If you want to be very sure, weld some sample pieces (coupons, in weldspeak) and try to break them. Maybe a good practice in any event, til you get used to the machine.

 

[user 246304]

OK, thanks, that helps a lot. I think we have some time, though it's coming so I'd best get on it. Your info is very much appreciated.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

How cold is "cold"? Do you use gas burners already? Just pop the ends of the tube over the gas to take the chill off if it is super cold. But honestly wouldn't worry about it.

Also, a wire wheel on a grinder should take the slag off in a jiffy. And then you can grind flush where you want flush metal.

I would just buy the metal you need and cut it yourself. Buy one of these: https://www.homedepot.com/s/abrasive+chop+saw?NCNI-5 and then sell it when you are done. You'll save money and learn while you're at it. Win-win!

 

[user 246304]

Sandy, nothing radical yet, just expected to snow next week. Say, low 30's to low 20's.

Thanks on the wire welder. Yesterday or the day before I watched - can't remember his youtube handle, but they're always good - but he's mig'ging up square tubing and doing exactly that, using a wire wheel to kick the slag off after each tack or bead. Final result surprised me how nice it looks, given flux core's rep. Of course, this is a pro, lol. Dumb question, but do you put the wheel on an angle grinder?

Finally, the MIG wire is .035 (flux core), of course. Any suggestions for voltage and wire speed? Again this is 14 gauge metal. 2 x 2. Machine is a Clarke Weld 130EN Fluxcore.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Just to enhance my rep as a pedantic a$$, I must point out that MIG means Metal Inert Gas. No gas = not MIG.

The deburring wheels I referenced mount on a pedestal or bench grinder.
Smaller ones are used on 1/4" die grinders. No reason you couldn't use an angle grinder, but mounting to the stubby 5/8" - 11 threads would be a problem, I think.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Weld it!
20 degrees ain't too cold!
As mentioned, if you're worried about it, crank up a gas burner and preheat the joint area.

Or are you just looking for reasons to put this off.......Some more?..

 

[user 246304]

Just to enhance my rep as a pedantic a$$, I must point out that MIG means Metal Inert Gas. No gas = not MIG.

The deburring wheels I referenced mount on a pedestal or bench grinder.
Smaller ones are used on 1/4" die grinders. No reason you couldn't use an angle grinder, but mounting to the stubby 5/8" - 11 threads would be a problem, I think.

Hahahah - yeah, I know. But isn't it cooler to say "mig" than "flux core arc wire fed welding?"

This is the video I referenced. He's hand holding something, with wire (see e.g., 4:47, for example). Special wire specs then, it seems you're saying. Thoughts?

 

[user 246304]

Weld it!
20 degrees ain't too cold!
As mentioned, if you're worried about it, crank up a gas burner and preheat the joint area.

Or are you just looking for reasons to put this off.......Some more?..

Hahahha, no, just know I'm a noob, read all over place people freaking out, warning against "root weld failure," knowing my beads aren't going to be that great to begin with, and, oh what the heck, my right hand bears the scars of being a dumb 15 year old hot mopping roofer, summer in S. California, she was unbelievable, I was watching her and not the upcoming roof pipe, 700 F tar coats my right hand and.....not a fan of hot stuff coming down like rain.

THat 'splain enough?

 

[ancientmariner52]

Just go with the Baldwin Locomotive Works method of design: Never use 1/4" plate if 3/4" plate will fit.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

my right hand bears the scars of being a dumb 15 year old hot mopping roofer, summer in S. California, she was unbelievable, I was watching her and not the upcoming roof pipe, 700 F tar coats my right hand and.....not a fan of hot stuff coming down like rain.

THat 'splain enough?

Before retiring, I was making male and female stamping dies, out a material called Kirksite.......Which we poured @ 950 degrees!

I got a few holes to show......