2 vessels or less - what are my options?

[Skjold]

hey folks,

I briefly jumped into the hobby years ago, but having kids and moving around put all of that on hold. I’m ready to give it another go, but much has changed since then... so many viable mashing methods now. Also, a lot of challenging the status quo.

I’m going to be setting up a dedicated space indoors with 240v access, utility sink, etc... so space is not a concern. However, I don’t want to blow $5k on a 3 vessel HERMS setup... nor do I want that much equipment, cleanup, etc. I’d rather spend more money on the cold side of brewing.

So I ask you fine folks... what are some setups I should consider? I’ve been looking at eBIAB, K-RIMS, C-HERMS. Any input on these different systems? I also have a preference for smaller batches (2.5-5 gal) of high gravity beers, if that matters.

Thanks!

 

[RM-MN]

Simple works well. Big enough pot, a way to heat it fast enough to suit your patience, a cheap Corona mill so you get small grain particles, a bag big enough to fit over the pot so the grains aren't constrained, and a way to lift the bag out of the pot. None of the other methods beat this for simplicity nor brewhouse efficiency. They do, however, make your wallet lighter in case you have a problem with too much money in it. So long as your pot is large enough to hold all the water plus the grains with a bit of space above so you can stir without spilling you can do a full volume, no sparge batch with brewhouse efficiency at 80% or better. Reduce the water in the mash and add a sparge step and you can gain another 5 to 10% brewhouse efficiency.

 

[eric19312]

I don't disagree with RM-MN regarding simplicity but I do love my automated temperature control and know this is also practical/feasible with BIAB systems. I am also scratching my head about 80-90% brewhouse efficiency claim. Yesterday I hit 90% mash efficiency which is high for my three vessel system but I leave about 10% or so of my boil in the kettle as trub and ended up with 78% brewhouse efficiency. You are getting as high as 90-95% brewhouse? Do you dump entire kettle into fermentor?

 

[eric19312]

OP if space is not a concern two and three vessel still have fans. What is your batch size plan? I'd be concerned going over 10 gallons with BIAB and even that could be challange. These two vessel systems at High Gravity Brewing look like interesting idea/price point. You can also see their thinking is that 5-10 gallons ok BIAB, not offering bigger than that.
https://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/Wort-Hog-Turnkey-Systems-c445.htm

 

[Skjold]

Simple works well. [...] None of the other methods beat this for simplicity nor brewhouse efficiency. They do, however, make your wallet lighter in case you have a problem with too much money in it.

It's interesting, b/c it seems that notion is more prevalent than ever in homebrewing, especially with the rise of BIAB setups, awards won with said setups, and the experiments done by folks like the Brülosophy crew. I get that some of the traditional methods may be overkill or even unnecessary, but I'm open to a number of things. As a little bit of a gear nerd, I welcome a little bit of complexity, especially if it means it won't slop mess all over the place (dripping grain bags moving them to the sink, etc). For some reason I just like the idea of a dedicated MLT... although I'd consider eBIAB if it was a really clean & slick setup/transition from mash to boil.

OP if space is not a concern two and three vessel still have fans. What is your batch size plan? I'd be concerned going over 10 gallons with BIAB and even that could be challange. These two vessel systems at High Gravity Brewing look like interesting idea/price point. You can also see their thinking is that 5-10 gallons ok BIAB, not offering bigger than that.
https://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/Wort-Hog-Turnkey-Systems-c445.htm

I'm hoping to brew more frequently and anywhere between 2.5-5 gal; however, they will be big beers (I mostly enjoy RIS, Belgian Quads, etc).

The High Gravity systems look neat, maybe like a Brutus 2.0... recirculating in an infinity loop between the kettles? Definitely way too big though, but I could build something myself if I understood how it was all connected & why.

 

[RM-MN]

I don't disagree with RM-MN regarding simplicity but I do love my automated temperature control and know this is also practical/feasible with BIAB systems. I am also scratching my head about 80-90% brewhouse efficiency claim. Yesterday I hit 90% mash efficiency which is high for my three vessel system but I leave about 10% or so of my boil in the kettle as trub and ended up with 78% brewhouse efficiency. You are getting as high as 90-95% brewhouse? Do you dump entire kettle into fermentor?

Unless you have a huge hop addition, why leave anything behind. That trub? It's mostly wort with some proteins and hop debris mixed in. It settles out quite well in the fermenter and I get more beer that way. It also helps to have the grain milled really fine so you can get full conversion and pretty high sugar extraction from the grain. I sparge, then sparge again, then once more. My gravity reading on the third sparge is still 1.020 to 1.030. Small sparges, mostly because my kettle is a bit too small for the batches I want to make. On my last batch, at the beginning of the boil I had less than half an inch from the wort to the rim of the kettle. I sweated that one and used my whisk to break down the bubbles to keep it from going over.

 

[eric19312]

I'm hoping to brew more frequently and anywhere between 2.5-5 gal; however, they will be big beers (I mostly enjoy RIS, Belgian Quads, etc).

The High Gravity systems look neat, maybe like a Brutus 2.0... recirculating in an infinity loop between the kettles? Definitely way too big though, but I could build something myself if I understood how it was all connected & why.

No question if 2.5-5 gallons is your target BIAB or eBIAB is a good fit. I'd never been to the high gravity website before though I've been hearing James Spencer on Basic Brewing Radio talk about then for a year or more. Those are some pretty cool systems they are offering. I'm mainly brewing 15 gallon batches now and can't imagine hoisting that sack of hot wet grain out of the kettle.

 

[eric19312]

Unless you have a huge hop addition, why leave anything behind. That trub? It's mostly wort with some proteins and hop debris mixed in. It settles out quite well in the fermenter and I get more beer that way. It also helps to have the grain milled really fine so you can get full conversion and pretty high sugar extraction from the grain. I sparge, then sparge again, then once more. My gravity reading on the third sparge is still 1.020 to 1.030. Small sparges, mostly because my kettle is a bit too small for the batches I want to make. On my last batch, at the beginning of the boil I had less than half an inch from the wort to the rim of the kettle. I sweated that one and used my whisk to break down the bubbles to keep it from going over.

I generally do have a biggish hop addition. Also I’m fermentor capacity constrained. 16 gallon brews in 60L fermentor. Trub in the fermentor means less beer in the third keg at end of batch so I’m willing to take the hit on efficiency in the kettle to get that third keg nearly full.

 

[d3track]

The good thing - going 1 or 2 vessel is a great solution. 2 vessel is an MLT and BK. But you have two vessels to store. 1 vessel is a bag, BK, hoist of some sort. But storage should take up less space.
If you no-sparge, time is pretty equal between the systems. And you could set up a RIMS on either one. Clean up is even between the two.

The really cool thing? You could do both! There is no rule that if you have a multi vessel system, that you can't BIAB as well.

It's a hobby, and should be fun. If you really don't want a second vessel, that answers the question.

If you want real-world, I'm set up for both. I have a 2 vessel RIMS that I REALLY like brewing on. I no-sparge on this system, and clean up is simple, done during the boil. I also have a brew bag for my kettle. Sometimes I do smaller batches, or I might brew somewhere other than my place, and that is nice to take less large items. The flexibility is nice.

 

[Skjold]

If you want real-world, I'm set up for both. I have a 2 vessel RIMS that I REALLY like brewing on.

That's cool. Is your setup K-RIMS using the 2nd vessel, or do you have a RIMS tube?

 

[d3track]

That's cool. Is your setup K-RIMS using the 2nd vessel, or do you have a RIMS tube?

RIMS tube, that way it's easy for the single vessel

 

[RM-MN]

No question if 2.5-5 gallons is your target BIAB or eBIAB is a good fit. I'd never been to the high gravity website before though I've been hearing James Spencer on Basic Brewing Radio talk about then for a year or more. Those are some pretty cool systems they are offering. I'm mainly brewing 15 gallon batches now and can't imagine hoisting that sack of hot wet grain out of the kettle.

I generally do have a biggish hop addition. Also I’m fermentor capacity constrained. 16 gallon brews in 60L fermentor. Trub in the fermentor means less beer in the third keg at end of batch so I’m willing to take the hit on efficiency in the kettle to get that third keg nearly full.

How do you get the grains out of your mash tun? By scooping them? Why can't you scoop some of the grains out of the bag to lighten it before you lift it?

Hop bags? Remove the hops before you put the wort into the fermenter. You'll be able to squeeze most of the wort out of the hops.

 

[eric19312]

How do you get the grains out of your mash tun? By scooping them? Why can't you scoop some of the grains out of the bag to lighten it before you lift it?

After my lauter is complete I stir about 6 gallons of cold water into the grain and allow that to drain into a bucket. When it is well drained I place a heavy duty trash bag over the mash tun, lift it off the stand and dump the tun into the bag on the driveway. Bag into the trash, hit the tun with a hose to eliminate any leftover grain and disassemble. During chilling I will use the hot water from my IC to finally clean the tun. My tun weighs about 15 pounds so with 32 pounds of grain and 16 pounds of absorbed water I am lifting about 63 pounds. But its not hot.

Hop bags? Remove the hops before you put the wort into the fermenter. You'll be able to squeeze most of the wort out of the hops.

Um just no. My hops must swim free. What is your obsession with bags?

Over the last few years I have tried a number of techniques to eliminate hop matter getting into my fermentor. Bags, ss scrubbie on the pick up tube, that Norcal mason jar packed with ss scrubbies, cloth hop spider. All had issues. Current iteration is my Spike kettle with the two level floor..whirlpool, settle briefly and pump to fermentor. Some hops do go into the fermentor but I leave a decent cone in the kettle. Yes I can tip the kettle and get more but out but that brings in a lot of the cone. Instead I build the loss into my recipe. Working backwards I target 15 gallons into kegs, 16 gallons into fermentor, 17.5 gallons end of boil. 19.75 gallons preboil.

 

[RM-MN]

After my lauter is complete I stir about 6 gallons of cold water into the grain and allow that to drain into a bucket. When it is well drained I place a heavy duty trash bag over the mash tun, lift it off the stand and dump the tun into the bag on the driveway. Bag into the trash, hit the tun with a hose to eliminate any leftover grain and disassemble. During chilling I will use the hot water from my IC to finally clean the tun. My tun weighs about 15 pounds so with 32 pounds of grain and 16 pounds of absorbed water I am lifting about 63 pounds. But its not hot.



Um just no. My hops must swim free. What is your obsession with bags?

Over the last few years I have tried a number of techniques to eliminate hop matter getting into my fermentor. Bags, ss scrubbie on the pick up tube, that Norcal mason jar packed with ss scrubbies, cloth hop spider. All had issues. Current iteration is my Spike kettle with the two level floor..whirlpool, settle briefly and pump to fermentor. Some hops do go into the fermentor but I leave a decent cone in the kettle. Yes I can tip the kettle and get more but out but that brings in a lot of the cone. Instead I build the loss into my recipe. Working backwards I target 15 gallons into kegs, 16 gallons into fermentor, 17.5 gallons end of boil. 19.75 gallons preboil.

Put your bag into the mash tun. Do the mash. Drain, then sparge with cold water. Remove the bag of grains after squeezing out the excess water. No hot bag of grains, much less absorbed water, easy to handle bag. Lifting a bag with only the 32 pounds of grain with a small amount of water should be much easier than lifting the entire tun with all the absorbed water. I'd make a guess that you might be lifting 35 to maybe as much as 40 pounds instead of the 63. Wait!! You need 32 pounds of grain? Mill the grains much finer since you have a bag to be the filter and cut the grains down to match your OG. I would expect to hit an OG of 1.050 with about 20 pounds of grain (just guessing but extrapolating from my much smaller batches).

Why can your hops not swim free and still be within the confines of a bag? Use a big bag fastened to the sides of the kettle. Why am I obsessed with bags? Because they work well. Why are you still using a mash tun?

 

[eric19312]

Wait!! You need 32 pounds of grain? Mill the grains much finer since you have a bag to be the filter and cut the grains down to match your OG. I would expect to hit an OG of 1.050 with about 20 pounds of grain (just guessing but extrapolating from my much smaller batches).

I assume 80% mash efficiency in designing my beers first pass. Mash efficiency being combination of conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency. With a 1.054 target for 17.5 gallons in kettle at end of boil I need 54x17.5 = 945 gravity points from the malt bill. Base malt congress mash yields 37ppg, 37x80%=29.6, 945/29.6 = 31.9 pounds of grain...