2 Vessel Rims - All grain sizing

[ZeroKruel]

Hello everyone!

First off, I am new to Home Brewing.. I've helped friends on their HERMS, but I've never done my own thing.

I have a 2 vessel all electric RIMs setup (10 gallon kettles), that I'm almost done done building. I'm wondering if I might have undersized my kettles now. I was really only looking to do 5 gallon batches, but I'm not sure if I can do larger ABV with this setup.

My question is: Is it possible, to start with 7.5 - 8 gallon in the HLT and transfer 5 - 5.5 gallons to the mash kettle and use a larger mash bill. Then transfer the wort back to the HLT and boil with the remaining 3 gallons I had left in there? Does this kill efficiency?

Thank you for your help!

 

[brewbama]

This might help: https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/203016133/mash_tun_chart_revB.pdf

You might as well use that water to your advantage by rinsing more sugar from the grain.

I recommend getting a 5 gal water cooler to hold your remaining 3.5 gal. Transfer the wort from the main mash to the BK, then sparge with the reserved water, transfer the 2nd run wort to the BK. Boil.

 

[ZeroKruel]

This might help: https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/203016133/mash_tun_chart_revB.pdf

You might as well use that water to your advantage by rinsing more sugar from the grain.

I recommend getting a 5 gal water cooler to hold your remaining 3.5 gal. Transfer the wort from the main mash to the BK, then sparge with the reserved water, transfer the 2nd run wort to the BK. Boil.

Is it still necessary to sparge with the RIMS? I made an assumption, which made have been an error - that with recirculation I could eliminate this. I could still incorporate this, very easily.

Thank you!

 

[mongoose33]

There are lots of ways to skin this cat. I have a 2-vessel RIMS system, both kettles are 10 gallon. I typically boil 8.25 gallons in my BK, then transfer to the mash tun. I put the grain in the mash tun first, then underlet that grain (underlet means fill it from the bottom through the ball valve).

I've used grain bills as large as 13.5 to 14 pounds, and it all still fits. Now, I'm doing a single-infusion mash, meaning I'm not sparging, which is why the somewhat larger grain bill. I'm allowing for losses in the MT, in the hoses, in the trub in the BK. I'll end up with about 6 gallons in the fermenter, maybe a shade less.

If you want to sparge, @brewbama's idea is a good one. If you'd rather not sparge, you can do all this with the size kettles you have.

 

[ZeroKruel]

There are lots of ways to skin this cat. I have a 2-vessel RIMS system, both kettles are 10 gallon. I typically boil 8.25 gallons in my BK, then transfer to the mash tun. I put the grain in the mash tun first, then underlet that grain (underlet means fill it from the bottom through the ball valve).

I've used grain bills as large as 13.5 to 14 pounds, and it all still fits. Now, I'm doing a single-infusion mash, meaning I'm not sparging, which is why the somewhat larger grain bill. I'm allowing for losses in the MT, in the hoses, in the trub in the BK. I'll end up with about 6 gallons in the fermenter, maybe a shade less.

If you want to sparge, @brewbama's idea is a good one. If you'd rather not sparge, you can do all this with the size kettles you have.

Your process, is exactly what I am setting up to do. I will be transferring through a ball valve also to underlet the grain - and then I have the RIMS tube and a manifold in the kettle.

 

[mongoose33]

Your process, is exactly what I am setting up to do. I will be transferring through a ball valve also to underlet the grain - and then I have the RIMS tube and a manifold in the kettle.

FWIW, I consider a RIMS system to be a 3-vessel system: a boil kettle (1), a mash tun (2), and the RIMS tube (3). I don't see any difference, fundamentally, between a HERMS and a RIMS: both use a 3rd "vessel" to provide heat to the mash tun. One advantage to the RIMS setup is not needing that 3rd kettle, it reduces the space needed, no need to have an element in the mash tun.

You don't need to heat sparge water; cool water will work the same. The sugar is already dissolved into the wort, and all you're doing with sparging is rinsing that residual sugar water off the grain. The only advantage to heating sparge water is it's already at least some of the way toward boiling, and that will save a little time. But it's at best a minor advantage, IMO.

***********

Here's my setup; may give you an idea or two as you set things up. Lots of ways to do this, and variations often depend on the space and resources available. It took me almost a year to figure this out; prior to that I was setting the pump on a wooden box, things were fiddly, and suddenly, after seeing someone else's setup it gave me the idea to do this.

I was trying to figure out how to shift the hoses in such a way that I wasn't having to move the pump and use a bunch of different hoses. What makes this a little different is I am using a counterflow chiller instead of maybe an immersion chiller.

When I heat the strike water, I boil it to drive off oxygen, then run that boiling water through the counterflow chiller. This sanitizes the chiller (it was already clean from last time, I'm just a little OCD about sanitation). Then I'll cool that water down to strike temp.

It's a little hard to see in this pic, but the hose coming out of the bottom of the pump is going into the counterflow chiller; it's hidden behind the other hose that comes out of the counterflow chiller and back to the kettle where the whirlpool valve is. When it's time to move that water into the mash tun, I just close the whirlpool valve, use a hemostat to close off the hose, and transfer it to the valve into the mash tun.

And yeah, it's sized in length to *just* reach.

Once the water is transferred, I close the MT valve, pinch off the hoses (hemostats), then take the hose that feeds the pump from the BK and transfer it to the MT, so that will feed the pump. The bottom hose out of the pump will be switched to the bottom of the RIMS tube, and a third hose will connect the top of the RIMS tube to the return manifold.

I used the pushbutton switches on my power panel to control my pump, but it's not in a particularly good spot--I have to reach. Finally dawned on me to use normal household switches to control that, and it's right there so it's as easy as can be to turn on and off. One switch controls the riptide pump; the other is connected to a MkII pump I use to clean my conical.

As I said, took me a year to finally figure out how to place everything so the hoses were switchable, everything reached, how to mount the pump (lower than the kettles so gravity would help prime it), and so on.

FWIW, also, here's the manifold:

 

[stevehaun]

Mongoose:
Is that a brewhardware rims tube? What element are you using?

 

[BarryBrews]

Here's my setup; may give you an idea or two as you set things up. Lots of ways to do this, and variations often depend on the space and resources available. It took me almost a year to figure this out; prior to that I was setting the pump on a wooden box, things were fiddly, and suddenly, after seeing someone else's setup it gave me the idea to do this.

How's the principle of better later than never? I've been trying the share of my ideas to the wrong crowd. Seriously, you have the same type of equipment as I do.

My RIMS(120v) and pump are connected together for the whole brew day, it's used to help the boil kettle(240v) heat the strike water, it's used to control the mash temperature while recirculating and helps the wort come to a boil. The RIMS/Pump system is flushed with RO into the boil kettle after the boil is reached. Actually, about the only time the pump is not running is the first 75 minutes of the 90 boil and during hose connection changes. The Kegco CFC(easy to clean) is sanitized the last 15 minutes of the boil. Of course the pump runs during cooling and whirlpool hops addition. Points of interest - tripping kettle tables, crush grain directly to mash tun (no dust), use a false bottom and brew bag in the mash tun for very clear wort to boil kettle. Note the hose connection diagram on the boil kettle and the wireless temperature probes on the inlet and outlet of the RIMS tube. And that is a 5 gallon/minute flow meter for reproducibility.

Do you have any tips to share like under letting the strike water and not stirring ever to prevent stuck mashes?

 

[mongoose33]

How's the principle of better later than never? I've been trying the share of my ideas to the wrong crowd. Seriously, you have the same type of equipment as I do.

My RIMS(120v) and pump are connected together for the whole brew day, it's used to help the boil kettle(240v) heat the strike water, it's used to control the mash temperature while recirculating and helps the wort come to a boil. The RIMS/Pump system is flushed with RO into the boil kettle after the boil is reached. Actually, about the only time the pump is not running is the first 75 minutes of the 90 boil and during hose connection changes. The Kegco CFC(easy to clean) is sanitized the last 15 minutes of the boil. Of course the pump runs during cooling and whirlpool hops addition. Points of interest - tripping kettle tables, crush grain directly to mash tun (no dust), use a false bottom and brew bag in the mash tun for very clear wort to boil kettle. Note the hose connection diagram on the boil kettle and the wireless temperature probes on the inlet and outlet of the RIMS tube. And that is a 5 gallon/minute flow meter for reproducibility.

Do you have any tips to share like under letting the strike water and not stirring ever to prevent stuck mashes?

View attachment 708249

I never thought about using the RIMS to help heat the strike water or the wort. That's brilliant! I love that setup--how many tries did it take you to get it right? Took me a year....

As far as underletting and avoiding a stuck mash....when I transfer from BK to the MT, I'm doing it at maybe a gallon a minute, maybe a bit less. The water just flows in from the bottom and displaces the air in the MT. It's amazing to me that when I add water this way, no doughballs.

Regardless, after it's underlet I will very, very gently give the mash a little stir, pulling grain up from the bottom to be sure it's all mixed and no air bubbles.

What I've found works for me w/r/t stuck mashes and the like is this: first, I toss a couple handfuls of rice hulls into the grain when I'm milling it. I have done a lot of brews without the rice hulls, but I figure it's just cheap insurance. I once bought 10# of them not realizing just HOW MUCH there is in 10# of rice hulls, so I have them to burn.

The other thing is that after I stir the mash gently, I let it settle for a minute or two before turning on the pump--and I'll run it at a slow pump speed of maybe a gallon a minute--same as underletting. That way I'm not sucking the grain bed down and packing it and make it hard to pull wort through.

BTW, when I'm doing this I use the sight glass to judge how clear the wort is that I'm pulling into the pump, and it also helps me judge speed.

I have a couple times gotten stuck, or what appeared to be stuck, but it turned out the pump wasn't working correctly. The Riptide has a little silver washer on the spindle--it's a sacrificial washer which slowly erodes away over time. If the washer gets too thin or, as happened the first time, disappeared entirely, it won't draw enough suction and that's that.

FWIW, I usually stop the pump about halfway through, turn off the RIMS system so I don't scorch anything by accident, and do the gently-stir thing again. Then as before, I'll let it settle for a couple of minutes before turning on the pump again and once it's flowing well, turn on the RIMS.

 

[BarryBrews]

how many tries did it take you to get it right? Took me a year....

I think you're going to love the following stuff. I've brewed 93 times over 9 years and every single time my system was modified in one way or another. Went electric 2.5 years ago. I would like to think the updating is done, but a 25 gallon BK would work so much better. I do 12 gallon batches for 10 in the kegs, you know. I built the power supply using SCR (solidstate controlled rectifiers) voltage regulators which work great for constant gentle power to the RIMS. Note the voltmeter on the box which reflects the power output.

As far as underletting and avoiding a stuck mash....when I transfer from BK to the MT, I'm doing it at maybe a gallon a minute, maybe a bit less. The water just flows in from the bottom and displaces the air in the MT. It's amazing to me that when I add water this way, no doughballs.

If you don't already have a false bottom and a brew bag in your mash tun, I highly recommend it. I under let the strike water (RO + Ca salts) at 2 gallons per minutes and then immediately flip the hoses to start recirculating the wort at 3 gallons per minutes for 90 minutes. I'll ramp the temperature from 145F to 160F for most beers in order to get the best fermentable wort. Mash to BK is set to ~1 gallons/min so that the discharge to the BK is at least 165F(RIMS full power). With the flowmeter it is simple to set these flow rates. I have not stirred my mash tun for 2.5 years and have never had a stuck mash. The reason stirring is a problem is easy to understand. When the mash is stirred everything is suspended in the mash water and what happens is the finer particles stay suspended longer and end up settling on the top of the mash bed forming a barrier to flow. Have you ever notice that scraping the top of the stuck bed gets the wort flowing again? With the flowmeter its easy to see the bed's not compressed, though I have never had that problem nor doughballs. Try it.

I toss a couple handfuls of rice hulls into the grain when I'm milling it. I have done a lot of brews without the rice hulls, but I figure it's just cheap insurance. I once bought 10# of them not realizing just HOW MUCH there is in 10# of rice hulls, so I have them to burn.

Whoa.....burn those rice hulls for real, seriously. Mix 2g of rice hulls with 8 ounces of 150F water, the ratio normally used in a mash tun. That's right, you get medium colored rice tasting tea with the most horrid smell. Not for my beers any more! I discovered this sad fact while doing a first principals review of my processes. I even ordered from two other big online brew suppliers with the same nasty results. The suppliers all say the same "rice hulls have not effect on beer".

I have a couple times gotten stuck, or what appeared to be stuck, but it turned out the pump wasn't working correctly. The Riptide has a little silver washer on the spindle--it's a sacrificial washer which slowly erodes away over time. If the washer gets too thin or, as happened the first time, disappeared entirely, it won't draw enough suction and that's that.

Hey thanks for the heads up on the RipTide pump. I just got mine a couple brews ago and have noticed the washer you mentioned. My old brew pump, though up to the pumping part of the task, was so damn loud it sucked the joy out of the experience. Also love how easy this pump is to clean!

FWIW, I usually stop the pump about halfway through, turn off the RIMS system so I don't scorch anything by accident, and do the gently-stir thing again. Then as before, I'll let it settle for a couple of minutes before turning on the pump again and once it's flowing well, turn on the RIMS.

When I built my power controller, I set it up so the RIMS contactor requires the pump to be turned on first. The only way to over heat the RIMS would be if the pump ran dry. Nice little safety feature for when you kill the pump and forget you had the RIMS on too!

My goals are the best possible beer and the easiest way to achieve it. I discovered New England IPA's and Kveik a year ago and have brewed it 9 times since. I think I'm stuck, I love this beer. It's also had the effect of making my brewery instantly twice as large. I use to brew a whole variety of styles....not any more. If for some reason these are new to you, you must try asap.

Here's some pics for clarity. I have a 30 gallon RO barrel that connects to the right pump inlet.