2 packs of yeast vs 2l starter

[merlyone]

Thanks all! This helps a lot.

So one pack with a starter it is.

 

[McMullan]

I am not knocking the yeast cell density thing but I use one 11g pack of dried Notty from Lallemand for most of my 30L batch beers and they start and ferment out great in four days. I do of course realise that liquid yeasts are available in greater varieties but I find the dried yeasts Lallemand sell are very good... I would be willing to bet 95or more percent of people would not know the difference between one yeast a to another in a proper blind test to be honest... but then again beer making is the new HiFi something to big up

I guess if you only use dry yeast you'll never really know how brewer's yeast strains differ so much. Interestingly, I've been experimenting with Lallemand dry yeast for several months. Not bad, but inferior to fresh wet yeast. I quit like Diamond Lager repitched, but WLP800 and WK833 blow it away. I find even fresh Lallemand 11g packs pitched in half batches (12L) take up to 48 hours before vigourous fermentation kicks off. More than 36 hours later than fresh wet yeast. So I'm a bit skeptical about claims one pack ferments 30L within 4 days. I do have a pack of Nottingham. I bet it struggles to finish half a batch of wort within a week.

 

[Bassman2003]

As aside note, my one pack of Verdant brew struggled to attenuate and basically ran out of gas. If the 55 billion cell thing is correct then I should have pitched two packs. I think this is a mistake by the dried yeast maker if they are going to strangle the cell count when the new liquid makers are going in the opposite direction.

 

[balrog]

As aside note, my one pack of Verdant brew struggled to attenuate and basically ran out of gas. If the 55 billion cell thing is correct then I should have pitched two packs. I think this is a mistake by the dried yeast maker if they are going to strangle the cell count when the new liquid makers are going in the opposite direction.

Lallemand has a yeast pitch rate calculator. Plugging in their different yeasts I *THINK* gives an indication of cells per pack, but they may also be using behind the scenes differences in pitch rate per ml per degree Plato for different yeasts. In that case, everything I've said about cells per pkg is suspect.

 

[MHBT]

This is just my opinion but yeast health is #1 cell count is #2, my goal is to always have a healthy pitch, the cell count is a guessing game anyway unless you have a microscope and you go that deep with it which i think is not necessary for 5 gallons, again just my opinion not saying im right but beers are not suffering at all

 

[wepeeler]

Hi all,

maybe stupid question but is it the same to brew with 2 packs of liquid yeast without a starter or 1 pack and 2 L starter? Or should I always make 1pack=1L starter or 2packs=2L starter?

Thx

You'll end up with more happy yeast cells if you make a starter. It will also decrease lag time. I typically always make a starter from liquid yeast, but not for dry. It will ensure you have yeast ready to chomp.

 

[jambop]

I guess if you only use dry yeast you'll never really know how brewer's yeast strains differ so much. Interestingly, I've been experimenting with Lallemand dry yeast for several months. Not bad, but inferior to fresh wet yeast. I quit like Diamond Lager repitched, but WLP800 and WK833 blow it away. I find even fresh Lallemand 11g packs pitched in half batches (12L) take up to 48 hours before vigourous fermentation kicks off. More than 36 hours later than fresh wet yeast. So I'm a bit skeptical about claims one pack ferments 30L within 4 days. I do have a pack of Nottingham. I bet it struggles to finish half a batch of wort within a week.

Don't be a skeptic I can assure you I pitch one rehydrated pack of Notty and a 30L 1.050 sg batch is finished in four days at constant 20C . What I really like about that particular yeast is it is very flocculant and the beer is crystal clear inside 7days and I do not cool the beer at all . After bottle conditioning it can be chilled a little to 12C for serving. I don't know what you are doing wrong to not have a good fermentation almost with in a few hours I do but I have my brew liquor adjusted properly for alkalinity and follow the very simple instructions on the pack for rehydration which I think is vital for the yeast to get a good start.

 

[McMullan]

What I'm doing mainly to not get a good fermentation within a few hours is not typing crap. It takes yeast cells, in fact, any healthy living cell, several hours to remodel metabolism to cope with a new environment. It's highly unlikely a dry yeast reaches any of level of fermentation within a few hours. The only time I've ever observed fermentation kick off so soon is when repitching freshly top-cropped yeast directly into a fresh batch of wort. Mainly because the 'memory' of the fermentation metabolic profile exists. The probability of this occuring with pitched dry yeast is close to zero. Ask any genuinely skeptical biologist with an idea

 

[jambop]

What I'm doing mainly to not get a good fermentation within a few hours is not typing crap. It takes yeast cells, in fact, any healthy living cell, several hours to remodel metabolism to cope with a new environment. It's highly unlikely a dry yeast reaches any of level of fermentation within a few hours. The only time I've ever observed fermentation kick off so soon is when repitching freshly top-cropped yeast directly into a fresh batch of wort. Mainly because the 'memory' of the fermentation metabolic profile exists. The probability of this occuring with pitched dry yeast is close to zero. Ask any genuinely skeptical biologist with an idea

I do not know why you are being so aggressive . I have told you what I do .. you don't believe me Why? It is like I come on here to tell lies ? I have better things to do with my time than make up yarns. Even if you go to Lallemand's own website you will see that fermentation can be competed in this time. I repeat I have had no issue at all completing a 25 - 30l batch fermentation simply by following the rehydration advice and pitching the rehydrated yeast cells into the fermenter and fermenting at 20C. Any way you have a good day.

 

[MHBT]

not saying its not possible but i don’t usually see fermentation from dry yeast until at least 18 hours and when that happens i brag about my short lag time and how good of a wort maker i am definitely slower

 

[McMullan]

I do not know why you are being so aggressive . I have told you what I do .. you don't believe me Why? It is like I come on here to tell lies ? I have better things to do with my time than make up yarns. Even if you go to Lallemand's own website you will see that fermentation can be competed in this time. I repeat I have had no issue at all completing a 25 - 30l batch fermentation simply by following the rehydration advice and pitching the rehydrated yeast cells into the fermenter and fermenting at 20C. Any way you have a good day.

I'm not being 'aggressive' and the suggestion I am is a sad way to attempt to cover up what is clearly nonsense by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe you pitch cool and the FV wort warms over a few hours, producing some bubbling through an airlock? That kind of physics has nothing to do with fermentation. I have a fresh pack of Nottingham.

Shall I test your claim? How about a full batch (23L) of fermentable brown ale starting @ 1.052? Do you want the yeast hydrated first or sprinkled on top of the wort? You reckon it's going to be done within 4 days, right? I'm planning to brew this beer imminently anyway, and I have no problem making it more entertaining. Why not?

 

[Bassman2003]

As another data point, my recent try of Verdant had a surprisingly short lag time. I pitched around 4:00 in the afternoon and had decent airlock activity early the next morning. That is normal for my brewing using liquid yeast and the dry took it right in stride. It crapped out around 1.019 but that is another story!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Do you want the yeast hydrated first or sprinkled on top of the wort?

If one wishes to look very closely at every word in various pieces of product information, it's plausible to conclude that Lallemand prefers rehydration over direct pitch.

With regard to pitching Nottingham, Jambop did mention this earlier: "simply by following the rehydration advice".

What ever you decide to do, please provide complete recipe(s), good process descriptions, and appropriate brew day notes so that others can, if interested, try to re-produce your findings.

 

[jambop]

If one wishes to look very closely at every word in various pieces of product information, it's plausible to conclude that Lallemand prefers rehydration over direct pitch.

With regard to pitching Nottingham, Jambop did mention this earlier: "simply by following the rehydration advice".

What ever you decide to do, please provide complete recipe(s), good process descriptions, and appropriate brew day notes so that others can, if interested, try to re-produce your findings.

In all honesty I find this very sad. I give an account of my particular experience and it is rubbished ... I do not know why.
I have made four brews of late and all of the four brews had finished detectable fermentation iafter the the four days that I have said. I made the beers using a Grainfather S40 and a Brewmonk conical FV. I don't know why I need to in some way publish data... which at the end of the day is pointless because those data could be totally false. It is simply a reflection of my particular experience using this product it is not a wonder product but it has worked well for me. I particularly like the clearing rate of the yeast and the fact that when the beer is bottle conditioned I can pour the beer freely with nearly no yeast carried over into the glass the other thing is that in real terms the product is dirt cheap at €2.70 a pop at that price even adding two 11g packs would be cheap... I have never found the need though.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@jambop : my comments in #43 were intended for McMullan and not a comment on your contributions in this topic.

 

[Red over White]

A small vitality starter of 500 ml for 1 pack of dry yeast can make a vast improvement in the speed in which fermentation begins. I freeze 1 liter bottles of wort diluted to 1.040 that is left in my mashtun and use it for 2 vitality starters made first thing on brew day. 5-6 points in the first 24 hours is normal for me, without a vitality starter 2-3 points is typical just sprinkling dry yeast in.

Is there a major difference in flavor or overall fermentation time, not for my low 1.040's OG beers there isn't. I have a few recipes I brew very regularly and I can't tell either apart when served side by side. If I planned to brew and thawed the starter wort, I like to proof the yeast, if it was an impromptu brew I just send it. The final product tastes the same to me with my lower gravity recipes.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for your input. Be careful with the frozen wort. It is not food safe practice to just freeze the wort instead of pressure can it.

 

[Red over White]

Thanks for your input. Be careful with the frozen wort. It is not food safe practice to just freeze the wort instead of pressure can it.

I freeze it immediately and boil it the morning of brew day. Pressure canning is definitely better if you have the time to do it. I need an assistant brewer.

 

[Bassman2003]

Just don't want any chance of Botulism for you. Sounds extreme, but boiling does not protect anybody, especially if the stored wort was not boiled to begin with. I use my pressure canner a lot for beer stuff and I think it saves time. I make a small batch of double strength starter wort and can two rounds of 7 jars. This is enough for plenty of ~2L starters throughout the year.

 

[renstyle]

In all honesty I find this very sad. I give an account of my particular experience and it is rubbished ... I do not know why.
I have made four brews of late and all of the four brews had finished detectable fermentation iafter the the four days that I have said. I made the beers using a Grainfather S40 and a Brewmonk conical FV. I don't know why I need to in some way publish data... which at the end of the day is pointless because those data could be totally false. It is simply a reflection of my particular experience using this product it is not a wonder product but it has worked well for me. I particularly like the clearing rate of the yeast and the fact that when the beer is bottle conditioned I can pour the beer freely with nearly no yeast carried over into the glass the other thing is that in real terms the product is dirt cheap at €2.70 a pop at that price even adding two 11g packs would be cheap... I have never found the need though.

You are fine. The anecdotal results you have posted match my own experience in well over 20 brews.

Notty works thru ale-temp fermentations very well, flocs pretty hard, and has never taken more than 5 days to finish anything I have brewed (1.045-1.055 range).

I followed the conventional wisdom of years and years that an 11.5g sachet contains ~ 100B cells, so I have never tried to build up, nor felt the need to pitch 2 sachets.

The gravity readings get where they need to be (1.008-1.012) within 4-5 days.

So just sit back, relax, and have a homebrew.

EDIT: these results above are a result of NOT following the "re-hydration advice" on the sachet. Simply sprinkle on the wort and seal the FV up.