1st Hop Addition at 25 Minutes - IPA Feedback Request

[Norselord]

I have been having a hard time making hoppy beers.
Malty beers have all turned out wonderfully.

The last two IPAs have turned out awful. I added bittering hops at 60 and the usual suspects at 15, 5, 0 and dry hopped. Did all the right math to get the right IBUs. Followed a sound process. Hit the OGs and the FGs. The water profile is right. etc etc etc. Rather than bore you with the details of past failures, I present a new approach for me to making a tasty hoppy beer. I am going to get rid of the traditional bittering hop addition and also eliminate dry/cold hopping additions.

The proposed recipe is below - I would like to get some thoughts on how to make this one a tasty Hoppy Rye IPA

Recipe: May - IPA - Cascoe/Simcade TYPE: All Grain
Style: Rye IPA
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 8.0 SRM SRM RANGE: 6.0-14.0 SRM
IBU: 61.4 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 50.0-75.0 IBUs
OG: 1.068 SG OG RANGE: 1.056-1.075 SG
FG: 1.012 SG FG RANGE: 1.008-1.014 SG
BU:GU: 0.909 Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 7.3 %
EE%: 65.00 % Batch: 5.25 gal Boil: 7.64 gal BT: 60 Mins

Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs 12.0 oz Total Hops: 6.25 oz oz.
---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 63.5 %
3 lbs Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 2 19.0 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 12.7 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.2 %
4.0 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.6 %


Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 22.89 qt of water at 157.7 F 148.0 F 75 min

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 71.0 F/71.0 F
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.39gal, 4.22gal) of 168.0 F water

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.055 SG Est OG: 1.068 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.75 oz Simcoe [12.50 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 6 18.8 IBUs
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 7.2 IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [12.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 13.4 IBUs
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 4.3 IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [12.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 9.8 IBUs
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 2.4 IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [12.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 5.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs

 

[mmahu]

That is nowhere near a hoppy IPA. You have like 60 IBUs based on the recipe, which is fine for a tame IPA or a bold Pale Ale. Also, most IBU calculators overshoot the IBUs, which means you will probably get less than those 60 IBUs. If you are keeping the Caramel Malt and the Vienna, you will need a bit more bitterness in the beer to balance it out.

I would recommend like 1 oz of Simcoe at 25 minutes and 1 oz of Cascade at 20 minutes. I would also drop the Caramel Malt. The Acidulated malt, unless you are unable to adjust the pH of the water you are using, drop it and replace these two with some either Pale malt or flaked / malted wheat/barley.

The Rye will lend flavour, spiceness and a bit of of body/retention to the beer, which is fine, when you are dealing with such a big beer.

 

[Yooper]

It's plenty of IBUs, in my opinion. The IBU/SG ratio is .909, which is plenty.

I have a question about the recipe, though. What does this mean: ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH ?

If your other beers have been "awful", it's probably not the recipe or the hopping that's the issue, so I think while we can discuss a recipe that looks good (and this does, assuming the acid malt is for pH control), we should see what's wrong with the process that causes the beers to not be good.

 

[mmahu]

It's plenty of IBUs, in my opinion. The IBU/SG ratio is .909, which is plenty.

I have a question about the recipe, though. What does this mean: ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH ?

If your other beers have been "awful", it's probably not the recipe or the hopping that's the issue, so I think while we can discuss a recipe that looks good (and this does, assuming the acid malt is for pH control), we should see what's wrong with the process that causes the beers to not be good.

I assumed since the thread starter wrote he had a hard time making hoppy beers, it must have been something in the recipe/hops addition schedule.

But maybe he would like to explain further, what " awful " means. Try to tell us what exactly " awful " means in this case.

Can you tell us what water profile are you going to use for this beer?

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'd like to hear more about what's wrong with the previous batches.

 

[Norselord]

*sigh*

I specifically didn't want to go into this and thought i mentioned as much in my original post. By talking about past batches we are missing the point of this post.

A few quick points:
- By hoppy, i don't mean bitter. I mean a lot of hop flavor and hop aroma. As Yooper mentioned the IBU/OG ratio is at ~0.9, pretty much dead on for an IPA.
- I will adjust the hop quantities to compensate for actual AA present in delivered product, but intend to keep the hop schedule.
- The acidulated malt is there to hit mash pH
- I don't believe there is any issue with the grain-bill. I intend to use 8oz of cara for head retention, it is a little and adds just a touch of caramel. I like the spice of rye. I like the depth that Vienna malt adds.
- Adding chemical before FWH is a field Beersmith automatically provides, even if you don't do this.

The awful beers had overwhelming tastes of earth and dirt. I have had some accomplished beer brewers taste it and not able to identify what the off-flavor is. I personally suspect it has something to do with oxidation or something having to do with dry-hopping or potentially getting way more utilization out of the bittering hop charge than expected. Musty, dirty, earthy. None of the other beers before or after have had this issue: Scotch ale, irish red, oatmeal porter, bohemian pilsener, etc - this was exclusively the dry hopped or more 'bitter' beers. Centennial is another common thread in the 'awful' beers.

I have not tried to make an IPA that had the first hop charge at 25 minutes and did not use the dry/cold hopping technique.

The intent of adding so many hops in the last 25 minutes of the boil is as follows:
- get tighter control of total bitterness (IBU) ... (you can be more accurate and precise with 2oz @ 15 minutes than 1oz @ 60 minutes, for example)
- eliminating the dry hop step by adding a lot of late hop additions for flavor and aroma.

 

[dpeters]

Please list your water profile you used and did you use RO, Well, or city water?

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

*sigh*

I specifically didn't want to go into this and thought i mentioned as much in my original post. By talking about past batches we are missing the point of this post.

A few quick points:
- By hoppy, i don't mean bitter. I mean a lot of hop flavor and hop aroma. As Yooper mentioned the IBU/OG ratio is at ~0.9, pretty much dead on for an IPA.
- I will adjust the hop quantities to compensate for actual AA present in delivered product, but intend to keep the hop schedule.
- The acidulated malt is there to hit mash pH
- I don't believe there is any issue with the grain-bill. I intend to use 8oz of cara for head retention, it is a little and adds just a touch of caramel. I like the spice of rye. I like the depth that Vienna malt adds.
- Adding chemical before FWH is a field Beersmith automatically provides, even if you don't do this.

The awful beers had overwhelming tastes of earth and dirt. I have had some accomplished beer brewers taste it and not able to identify what the off-flavor is. I personally suspect it has something to do with oxidation or something having to do with dry-hopping or potentially getting way more utilization out of the bittering hop charge than expected. Musty, dirty, earthy. None of the other beers before or after have had this issue: Scotch ale, irish red, oatmeal porter, bohemian pilsener, etc - this was exclusively the dry hopped or more 'bitter' beers. Centennial is another common thread in the 'awful' beers.

I have not tried to make an IPA that had the first hop charge at 25 minutes and did not use the dry/cold hopping technique.

The intent of adding so many hops in the last 25 minutes of the boil is as follows:
- get tighter control of total bitterness (IBU) ... (you can be more accurate and precise with 2oz @ 15 minutes than 1oz @ 60 minutes, for example)
- eliminating the dry hop step by adding a lot of late hop additions for flavor and aroma.

You may not have noticed, (actually, I think your thread came first), but I asked essentially the same question in another thread. I plan to do my next brew Saturday (single hopped Pale Ale featuring El Dorado) and I want to do a similar approach. I guess I'll know in a few weeks.

 

[Norselord]

Can you tell us what water profile are you going to use for this beer?

My water is as follows:

Calcium: 6.00
Magnesium: 1.00
Sodium: 3.00
Sulfate: 7.00
Chloride: 1.30
Bicarbonate: 22.00

My target profile is as follows:

Calcium: 75.00
Magnesium: 5.00
Sodium: 10.00
Sulfate: 150.00
Chloride: 50.00
Bicarbonate: 35.00

I will get close to this by adding the following to each gallon of water:
1/8 tsp Gypsum
1/8 tsp Calcium chloride
1/16tsp Epsom

I expect the actual result to be:
Calcium: 100
Magnesium: 15
Sodium: 3
Sulfate: 160
Chloride: 55
Bicarbonate: 22

 

[Norselord]

Please list your water profile you used and did you use RO, Well, or city water?

I use city water as outlined above in a previous quote.

I actually am a chemical engineer in the water treatment business, so i am pretty confident that water is not the issue.

 

[hopmonster2189]

Try using more hops, most of my good ipa's have at least 12 oz of hops, with 4 from 20-5 min, about 4 in a hop stand and 4 for dry hop. I think IPA's are one of the toughest styles to brew to expectations, just keep at it.

 

[Yooper]

My water is as follows:

Calcium: 6.00
Magnesium: 1.00
Sodium: 3.00
Sulfate: 7.00
Chloride: 1.30
Bicarbonate: 22.00

My target profile is as follows:

Calcium: 75.00
Magnesium: 5.00
Sodium: 10.00
Sulfate: 150.00
Chloride: 50.00
Bicarbonate: 35.00

I will get close to this by adding the following to each gallon of water:
1/8 tsp Gypsum
1/8 tsp Calcium chloride
1/16tsp Epsom

I expect the actual result to be:
Calcium: 100
Magnesium: 15
Sodium: 3
Sulfate: 160
Chloride: 55
Bicarbonate: 22

I'd leave out the epsom, but it's not the issue.

Due to your description of the other bad beers, the first thing that comes up to me is mash pH and/or oxidation.

Do you check your mash pH at all?

Adding more hops late in the boil is great- but it's a far bigger guessing game re: IBUs than with FHW and traditional hopping since no software programs accurately predict IBUs with late hops/whirlpool hops. In order to make a great hopbursted beer, you need to be able to make a great IPA with 60 or FWH/15/0/dryhop.

The other thing that calls out to me is that maybe you don't like higher sulfate IPAs, at least not the ones you've made, so maybe reduce the sulfate significantly, to 80-100 ppm and see if you like that better. Sulfate really enhances the perception of bitterness, via being very "drying", and not the hops which are bright and flavor.

 

[Norselord]

Thank you for your response Ms Yooper. I do check my mash pH and find it tone in the 5.2 to 5.4 range.

I'll cut he sulfate to less than 100.

I suspect oxidation as part of the dry hop process as being the main culprit.

 

[BrewMeister49]

My beers had an acrid taste ( to me ) that nobody could define or describe. Most didnt even know it was there until I pointed it out. I switched to bottled water and it went away. I suspect chlorine as my new house has good tap water and FAR less chlorination and its not there.

To your OP, I do the 25 minute first hop all the time. I also dont gauge a beer based on IBU's. Never have. I look soley at beersmiths IBU:SG ratio. Just make sure that your ratio is within the style your looking for and your fine. I find I get way more flavor to go along with the bitterness.

 

[Norselord]

My beers had an acrid taste ( to me ) that nobody could define or describe. Most didnt even know it was there until I pointed it out. I switched to bottled water and it went away. I suspect chlorine as my new house has good tap water and FAR less chlorination and its not there.



To your OP, I do the 25 minute first hop all the time. I also dont gauge a beer based on IBU's. Never have. I look soley at beersmiths IBU:SG ratio. Just make sure that your ratio is within the style your looking for and your fine. I find I get way more flavor to go along with the bitterness.

I use campden tablets to get rid of chlorine.

If you use bottled, aren't you concerned you aren't giving your yeasty beasties the micronutrients they deserve?

 

[BrewMeister49]

I always do a large starter and have not had any issues reaching FG. I could be wrong ( Im not a huge water manipulator ) but its my belief that water ( other than ph ) has little to nothing to do the yeast as opposed to hitting your mash temps and efficiency. Yoop has VERY sound advice and her brews are tops. Our fav is the Yooper Stout. I would listen to her about water building for sure. I just have never felt the need to as my beers have always come out great ( won many awards ) without water building.

 

[ong]

I'm not really sure what the complicated hop schedule gains you. I used to try to build those elaborate schedules, but for hoppy beers I've settled on a much simpler program. I add a 60 minute addition calculated to deliver my target IBUs; then after the boil, I cool to 180 or so and add 4-5 oz of flavor/aroma hops for 40 minutes, stirring often. I follow that post fermentation with a couple oz in the keg for a week. This may not be sufficient for IIPAs or anything, but it works great in the 5-7% ABV range.

 

[Norselord]

I always do a large starter and have not had any issues reaching FG. I could be wrong ( Im not a huge water manipulator ) but its my belief that water ( other than ph ) has little to nothing to do the yeast as opposed to hitting your mash temps and efficiency. Yoop has VERY sound advice and her brews are tops. Our fav is the Yooper Stout. I would listen to her about water building for sure. I just have never felt the need to as my beers have always come out great ( won many awards ) without water building.

There has been much research and studying done about building up water profiles for crafting specific beer styles; J.Palmer and C.Kaminski have written an excellent book on the topic. Some beer styles and water profiles are very compatible, but i would doubt that someone in Burton-upon-trent could use their water to make a good Pilsener, and someone from Plzen would be able to use their water to make an excellent IPA.

 

[Norselord]

I'm not really sure what the complicated hop schedule gains you. I used to try to build those elaborate schedules, but for hoppy beers I've settled on a much simpler program. I add a 60 minute addition calculated to deliver my target IBUs; then after the boil, I cool to 180 or so and add 4-5 oz of flavor/aroma hops for 40 minutes, stirring often. I follow that post fermentation with a couple oz in the keg for a week. This may not be sufficient for IIPAs or anything, but it works great in the 5-7% ABV range.

I don't disagree with your process - however that exact process is giving me some off-flavors. I believe it is because either:
a) I get much more hop utilization than expected out of my 60min addition (maybe my boil-off calcs are off, or something else - as Yoop mentioned; maybe sulfates too high to kick that perceived bitterness up too much)
b) The dry/cold hop is adding an undesirable element which might be oxidation or something else.

The reason for the complicated hop schedule is based on the attached graph. Note that additions from 25 minutes on down produce aroma and flavor but also still yield 10%-30% bitterness from alpha acids.

I have tried to explain my thought process on this in the original post, but I am obviously doing a piss-poor job at it. If I want to eliminate what I suspect are the sources of my flaws (60 minute addition and dry hop) but still get a target IBU and a decent amount of hop flavor and aroma - i could only add hops from 25 minutes on down.

The tradition for adding at 60 minutes is due to the economics of brewing. Getting 100% bitterness from a 60minute charge is 5 times cheaper than the 20% alpha acid contribution from a 15-20 minute addition. On a commercial scale this is very important, and it may also be important to people who are min/maxing their batch costs on a 5-gallon scale. At $2-$3 per oz, hops can be more than 50% the cost of a batch. But...I don't care about cost, in this specific instance.

Additionally, the internet is rife with anecdotal evidence that bittering from late hops is smoother than the bitterness from hops added at 60minutes. I can not confirm this personally, but after this batch I should be able to weigh in subjectively with my own extremely small sample size.

Lastly, I really appreciate everyone who has contributed to this thread. Thank you for your time and feedback.

 

[plazola86]

If you have your schedule and water down it sounds like you have bad hops. How old and what type of hops are you using? Try using fresh fruit forward hops (Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy). The "C" hops or older strains mostly contribute piney, grassy, earthy flavors with a little fruit flavor and aroma.

 

[Yooper]

I use campden tablets to get rid of chlorine.

If you use bottled, aren't you concerned you aren't giving your yeasty beasties the micronutrients they deserve?

Using campden is great!

You don't need to add any micronutrients- malt has plenty of magnesium, for example.

Calcium, in the form of gypsum and/or calcium chloride is often added, and it kills two birds with one stone, so to speak. It has either sulfate or chloride for flavor, and increases the calcium. With definitely not necessary (many lager breweries don't have calcium added to their water), it helps yeast flocculation (not health), and helps precipitate oxalates out, to help avoid beerstone.

The only thing malt doesn't provide is zinc, but most people don't add zinc anyway.

We sort of touched on Pilsen vs Burton-on-Trent there, but keep in mind that you don't know what the breweries near those water sources actually used for their water, if they pre-boiled to decarbonate, or what they may have added for water treatment. While the river in Burton-on-Trent may have flowed over gypsum stores, and had water of 600 ppm sulfate, there was also fresh water in aquifers that flowed in. So I wouldn't try to make an IPA with 600 PPM of sulfate anyway, but definitely not before exploring that more!

 

[plazola86]

The tradition for adding at 60 minutes is due to the economics of brewing. Getting 100% bitterness from a 60minute charge is 5 times cheaper than the 20% alpha acid contribution from a 15-20 minute addition. On a commercial scale this is very important, and it may also be important to people who are min/maxing their batch costs on a 5-gallon scale. At $2-$3 per oz, hops can be more than 50% the cost of a batch. But...I don't care about cost, in this specific instance.

I don't disagree about the cost saving benefit but I have tried using all late hops and whirlpool to bitter IPA's but never liked the outcome. There just wasn't enough solid bitterness for me. 25 minutes is a good time to extract some bitterness though. I always add enough hops at FWH to get at least half of my IBU contribution, then the rest I get from a 15 minute addition. Flameout, whirlpool, dry hops are NOT added to the IBU contribution. This is just my taste though, others swear by late hop and whirlpool only hop schedules to get their IBU's.

 

[bolus14]

Not really an answer here, but a couple questions and some things I've done recently. First off I'm only getting into IPA's, I don't like bitter bombs or really florally beers, more of a fan of the more balanced, malt leaning or fruitier versions. I have found that I particularly like Troegs Pale/IPA's and many of the "clone recipes" for their beers use Pilsner malt combined with more Vienna/Munich than what you find in a lot of IPA's , seems to add some sweetness that isn't in the more bitter beers out there.

This thought will get a lot of debate but many will tell you that any hops before 20min aren't giving you anything but bitterness and to just move them to 60 min and redo your IBU calculations. Or, you can move them to 10-15 min and increase the amounts to get more hop flavor/aroma. The other part of the debate is to just move everything under 20min to flameout/whirlpool additions as some have said you get better flavor/aroma than adding during the boil. This also complicates figuring out IBU's, depending on what the temp is when you add the hops and whether you let the temp drop during the whirlpool will change the isomerization of the hops.

In my experience would also debate that you need to use boat loads of hops to get strong flavor/aroma. I currently have an 8% "fruity" DIPA fermenting that at day 10 I checked the gravity and the hydro sample is plenty fruity, I added another 3.4oz of dry hops with an estimated 2 gravity points left to go. In total there are 7.4oz of hops, 1.25oz FWH, 2.75oz whirlpool, and the 3.4oz dry hop, and unless something drastically changes there will be plenty of hop presence. Personally I think the hop variety and their oil "makeup" are more important than the amount you use. The type of oils play a role in how much you would want to use.

Are you using the same type of hop(s) each time? Maybe it's a particular hop that is causing the issue?

Are you using whole leaf or pellets for dry hops?

What yeast strains are you using, how much are you pitching?

At what point and for how long are you dry hopping?

 

[Norselord]

We sort of touched on Pilsen vs Burton-on-Trent there, but keep in mind that you don't know what the breweries near those water sources actually used for their water, if they pre-boiled to decarbonate, or what they may have added for water treatment. While the river in Burton-on-Trent may have flowed over gypsum stores, and had water of 600 ppm sulfate, there was also fresh water in aquifers that flowed in. So I wouldn't try to make an IPA with 600 PPM of sulfate anyway, but definitely not before exploring that more!

I agree that modern brewers in traditional brewing locations are likely modifying their waters, and even the older breweries did so unwittingly. But isn't the reason why certain styles developed in certain areas because of the water profiles they had?

I don't think i would ever make a beer with 600mg/l sulfate...unless i was severely...uhm...compacted...

 

[Norselord]

#1 Are you using the same type of hop(s) each time? Maybe it's a particular hop that is causing the issue?

#2 Are you using whole leaf or pellets for dry hops?

#3 What yeast strains are you using, how much are you pitching? 1 package for OG < 1.050, 2 for 1.050> but <1.075, and otherwise 3. My wishlist has an ehrlenmeyer flask and stirplate on it...

#4 At what point and for how long are you dry hopping?

#1 Centennial for these specific examples (but i have noticed it with galaxy as well.)
#2 Pellets
#3 I have been making IPAs with WYeast 1056
#4 I have dry hopped in primary after 7-10 days for a period of 5-7 days, as well as dry hopped directly into the keg. (two different cases)