1bbl of Sparkling Cider Coming Up?

[barthautala]

At least I think. As far as I know, small batches are scalable to larger batches to an extent. I have my yeast calculations figured out. Please let me know if Im on the right track. We have an orchard we're going to be using.

Im going to be using an Avalon Apple grinder and press to get the juice. The apples were never sprayed with anything. After juicing I plan to pasteurize (probably with a Good Nature P&P pasteurizer).

From there I plan to transfer to an SS Brewtech 1bbl Chronical Brewmaster conical fermenter and pitch my yeast and sugars.

After that is where I get a big foggy (brite tank or nah?). But was most likely going to go to kegs and force carbonate then transfer some to bottles.

The end product will be sold at a local winery as tastings and as take away bottles. We're looking at 3 different styles - semi dry, semi sweet, and sweet.

Should I add finings to the conical? Or is that not entirely necessary with the large conical?
What things should I watch out for when doing large batches like this?

 

[barthautala]

Suddenly, Im thinking that a brite tank is necessary? Or is it ok to just fill a few kegs, force carb, then fill bottles from those kegs as necessary with a beer gun?

Also, for the sweet variety since Im not going to use a secondary fermenter when should I add the non-fermentable sugar? I would guess right at the beginning with everything else but Ive never done a "sweet" variety.

 

[curtisbrewer]

for the non- fermentable sugars in my opinion/my way of doing things ( especially since your doing a barrel).... not sure how you could gauge how much non fermentable sugar you need to acquire a desired taste when nothing has fermented yet. its generally not something you can calculate due to the fact nobody knows your desired taste/profile and what your starting point is.

if you are not planning on stopping your fermentation at a specific gravity ( which is how i would recommend getting your three varieties) i would pull a gallon of cider when ferm is complete and experiment with how much unfermentables you need. to get your desired taste profile, scale the ingredients. using a controlled sample helps to eliminate the " i added too much scenario"

as far as the bright tank and keg to bottle is concerned. if you have a bright tank then i would use it , unfortunately i do not, so i use cornys for essentially the same purpose , keg to bottle would just be a longer process involving more vessels.

as far as the finings go, if your using them in small batches then why would a conical make a large enough difference too not use them? i don't use them as i am more of the time and care type person when it comes to looking presentable. which i rarely care about =)

just my 2 cents, im sure more people will chime in to help you.

 

[barthautala]

for the non- fermentable sugars in my opinion/my way of doing things ( especially since your doing a barrel).... not sure how you could gauge how much non fermentable sugar you need to acquire a desired taste when nothing has fermented yet. its generally not something you can calculate due to the fact nobody knows your desired taste/profile and what your starting point is.

if you are not planning on stopping your fermentation at a specific gravity ( which is how i would recommend getting your three varieties) i would pull a gallon of cider when ferm is complete and experiment with how much unfermentables you need. to get your desired taste profile, scale the ingredients. using a controlled sample helps to eliminate the " i added too much scenario"

as far as the bright tank and keg to bottle is concerned. if you have a bright tank then i would use it , unfortunately i do not, so i use cornys for essentially the same purpose , keg to bottle would just be a longer process involving more vessels.

as far as the finings go, if your using them in small batches then why would a conical make a large enough difference too not use them? i don't use them as i am more of the time and care type person when it comes to looking presentable. which i rarely care about =)

just my 2 cents, im sure more people will chime in to help you.

I appreciate the response! I racked my brain over this A LOT last night. I should not I have the benefit of being to able to buy whatever equipment I need to make this work. So I came up with the following plan -

Ferment in a conical and use NO finings, once fermentation is complete then I plan to run the cider through a sheet style filter for maximum clarity. The cider will go from the sheet filter into another mixing vessel where I'll back sweeten with either non-fermentable sugars or with fresh non hard cider (I'll stop fermentation with Sodium or Potassium). And will let this mixture age in the brite tank for a couple weeks. (Semi dry wont need the back sweetening).

Its really from there that Im not sure which direction to go as the winery plans to have bottles (6 packs) to sell as well as kegs for the tastings.

 

[madscientist451]

If you have the money, you may want to consider the SABCO 1/2 BBL
Brite Tank:

https://www.brewmagic.com/blog/sabcos-select-sankey-keg-is-like-a-pocket-knife/

Perhaps offer the cider on draft at the tasting room with growlers to go?

Putting aside equipment issues, the basic plan of selling sparkling cider alongside wine is a good one. But wine drinkers may (or may not) be more discerning taste wise, and offering a quick turn around standard apple cider to them may be a hard sell.

 

[Newsman]

I would definitely use some pectic enzyme if you are heat pasteurizing. Also, strain very well, unless you WANT cloudy cider.

 

[curtisbrewer]

If you have the money, you may want to consider the SABCO 1/2 BBL
Brite Tank:

https://www.brewmagic.com/blog/sabcos-select-sankey-keg-is-like-a-pocket-knife/

Perhaps offer the cider on draft at the tasting room with growlers to go?

Putting aside equipment issues, the basic plan of selling sparkling cider alongside wine is a good one. But wine drinkers may (or may not) be more discerning taste wise, and offering a quick turn around standard apple cider to them may be a hard sell.

could not agree more with everything said here, especially regarding the sabco. if you utilize a few of those for your tasting room to start , your life will be a whole lot easier. there a little expensive but when you compare that to what it will cost for a bunch of regular kegs + the labor intensive work of assembly/disassembly + cleaning/filling, these might save you money in the long run.

I think you have a pretty good basis to start on. the only way your going to see is to Order equipment ( best part), and run some test batches.

if only someone would tell me i can order what ever equipment i want to get the job done !! don't be afraid to use this thread to post pictures of the new cider area at the winery being assembled and put to use !!

 

[barthautala]

If you have the money, you may want to consider the SABCO 1/2 BBL
Brite Tank:

https://www.brewmagic.com/blog/sabcos-select-sankey-keg-is-like-a-pocket-knife/

Perhaps offer the cider on draft at the tasting room with growlers to go?

Putting aside equipment issues, the basic plan of selling sparkling cider alongside wine is a good one. But wine drinkers may (or may not) be more discerning taste wise, and offering a quick turn around standard apple cider to them may be a hard sell.

The reason why we're doing, is because everyone else already is here.

I get giving up growlers, its what we do at my other business. But we dont distribute that locally like we plan on doing with the cider.

My thoughts now are to go from the fermenter through the filtering unit to the brite tank - then use a counter pressure bottle filler for bottles or directly to the keg depending on the demand.

So for my semi sweet - Im thinking of the following

40 gallons of "Proprietary" cider
WLP775 Yeast
Yeast Nutrient

Step 1: Make Cider
Step 2: Pasteurize to kill off wild yeast
Step 3: Ferment until complete
Step 4: Rack through sheet filter into brite tank. From reading, the sheet filterization process SHOULD remove the yeast.
Step 5: Add in Fresh Cider to sweeten to a semi sweet state
Step 6: Lettit condition
Step 7: Transfer to whatever holding vessel is appropriate.

 

[Maylar]

You have to let the cider clear before filtering. And even with filtering, step 4.5 would be to add k-meta and k-sorbate before sweetening.

If you have temperature control on the fermentor it's possible to cold crash at the desired final gravity and stop fermentation. Then force filter to the tank when it's clear. I believe this is how the big boys do it.

 

[barthautala]

You have to let the cider clear before filtering. And even with filtering, step 4.5 would be to add k-meta and k-sorbate before sweetening.

If you have temperature control on the fermentor it's possible to cold crash at the desired final gravity and stop fermentation. Then force filter to the tank when it's clear. I believe this is how the big boys do it.

The SS BrewTech 1bbl Chronicals have a cooling coil in them. I was not planning on buying a chiller............but............alternatively I could roll the fermenter into the fridge room we have. The tap water I think only gets down to around 48 degrees.

Fortunately (unfortunately) the cider is not being brewed in the same location as the winery. There isnt any space. But it is fully licensed as it used to be the primary wine making location. The draw back is we'll have to transport the cider which means I cant serve from the brite tank. On that note, I believe I'll probably need to invest in a counter pressure filler for bottles form the brite tank and the kegs I just force carb through a CO2 tank and manifold.

I really appreciate all of your feedback here. Ive only ever done anything on a home brew scale and never had to worry about carbonating and transporting and providing other people with a really clear product. Hell, if I was doing this for people I know "Drink it cloudy, it taste fine."

But as a manufacturing engineer I often get hung up on not wasting anything and wanting a great consistent product every single time I brew.

 

[curtisbrewer]

Good luck ! Be sure to keep us all in the loop !