1762 or 3787 for a BDSA?

[korndog]

So, I am about to attempt a Westvleteren 12 clone and am trying to decide between these yeasts. I know the 3787 is the Westmalle strain which the St. Sixtus monks supposedly use. The Rochefort yeast looks a little less intimidating though. Does anyone have experience with these yeasts for a comparison for this style?

Thanks
KD

 

[PseudoChef]

I would personally use the 3787 and attach a blow off.

Why is one more intimidating than the other?

 

[Evan!]

Uh, what's so intimidating about the Westmalle?

 

[korndog]

Uh, what's so intimidating about the Westmalle?

Well, the wyeast site says I need to feed the yeast during fermentation. Maybe intimidating is too strong, but I am a little nervous about that part.

 

[Evan!]

Well, the wyeast site says I need to feed the yeast during fermentation. Maybe intimidating is too strong, but I am a little nervous about that part.

IMHO, that's mainly for high-gravity beers. Not sure about the OG of your Westy clone, but regardless of what they say on the website, almost any strain like this will benefit from incremental feeding if you're trying to maximize your attenuation on high gravity wort. It stresses the yeast much less because it keeps the relative specific gravity, at any given point, lower. In other words, let's say your total sugar value is 1.125. If your original wort was that high, and you dumped the yeast into it, it would stress it out because of the pressure of the heavy wort. However, if you started with a 1.080 wort, let it ferment down to 1.040, then added 0.020 worth of sugar, let that ferment down to 1.040 again, and so on, until you'd added all your sugar, you'd still have used the same amount of carbohydrates, but your maximum gravity would be much lower and the yeast would have a much better chance of finishing fermentation healthy. I did this incremental addition process with a Mephistopheles clone and made it up to 15% alcohol. It's a PITA, but it's not really specific to the 3787 by any means.

 

[korndog]

IMHO, that's mainly for high-gravity beers. Not sure about the OG of your Westy clone, but regardless of what they say on the website, almost any strain like this will benefit from incremental feeding if you're trying to maximize your attenuation on high gravity wort. It stresses the yeast much less because it keeps the relative specific gravity, at any given point, lower. In other words, let's say your total sugar value is 1.125. If your original wort was that high, and you dumped the yeast into it, it would stress it out because of the pressure of the heavy wort. However, if you started with a 1.080 wort, let it ferment down to 1.040, then added 0.020 worth of sugar, let that ferment down to 1.040 again, and so on, until you'd added all your sugar, you'd still have used the same amount of carbohydrates, but your maximum gravity would be much lower and the yeast would have a much better chance of finishing fermentation healthy. I did this incremental addition process with a Mephistopheles clone and made it up to 15% alcohol. It's a PITA, but it's not really specific to the 3787 by any means.

ok, thanks. my SG is 1.113. Should I knock the base grain (or all grains?) down to cut SG by 25% and add sugar (what kind preferred?) back into the recipe to reach gravity? Then divide into several feedings? Or... If recipe has candi sugar or table sugar, should I just back that out of boil and use it in fermenter instead?

Thanks for your help.
KD

 

[Evan!]

ok, thanks. my SG is 1.113. Should I knock the base grain (or all grains?) down to cut SG by 25% and add sugar (what kind preferred?) back into the recipe to reach gravity? Then divide into several feedings? Or... If recipe has candi sugar or table sugar, should I just back that out of boil and use it in fermenter instead?

Thanks for your help.
KD

I wouldn't break the subsequent additions into completely simple sugars. I'd keep the ratio of maltose/dextrose:sucrose similar across the board (original wort and all additions) so you don't stress out the yeast by changing things up on them. If they get used to fermenting one kind of sugar (or a certain blend), it's never great to switch things up on them. So, figure out what your simple sugar ratio is in your base wort, and for each addition, go with the same ratio---just use whatever simple sugar you want (candi, cane, corn, etc) along with the correct proportion of malt extract for each addition.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

Is step fermenting really even necessary at 1.113? If you provide enough simple sugar, just about any Belgian strain will get you in the 1.026 range (+/- a few points).

 

[Evan!]

Is step fermenting really even necessary at 1.113? If you provide enough simple sugar, just about any Belgian strain will get you in the 1.026 range (+/- a few points).

If you add plenty of simple sugars and pitch a really healthy, large yeast colony, I'm sure it'd be fine.

 

[korndog]

I wouldn't break the subsequent additions into completely simple sugars. I'd keep the ratio of maltose/dextrose:sucrose similar across the board (original wort and all additions) so you don't stress out the yeast by changing things up on them. If they get used to fermenting one kind of sugar (or a certain blend), it's never great to switch things up on them. So, figure out what your simple sugar ratio is in your base wort, and for each addition, go with the same ratio---just use whatever simple sugar you want (candi, cane, corn, etc) along with the correct proportion of malt extract for each addition.

Well, thanks again. I guess I'll give the 3787 a try.

Ohiobrutus - I would love to know that's the case. I am going by Wyeast instructions for this yeast. I don't see it on any of their other Belgian strains. I would naturally pitch an adequate starter, so maybe I would be fine.

 

[korndog]

Trying to nail down fermentation temperature schedule for this beer. What kind of differential should I expect at various active fermentation phases.

I was thinking about doing the following:

1. Pitch at 65F and maintain 65F ambient during lag phase and early activity.
2. Monitor temperature differential during active, raising ambient if necessary.
3. Maintain target temperature until 90% attenuation.
4. Gradually bring back down to 65-68F until completion.

Or

Pitch at 65-67F and forget about it.

Thanks for your help guys.

 

[Evan!]

Trying to nail down fermentation temperature schedule for this beer. What kind of differential should I expect at various active fermentation phases.

I was thinking about doing the following:

1. Pitch at 65F and maintain 65F ambient during lag phase and early activity.
2. Monitor temperature differential during active, raising ambient if necessary.
3. Maintain target temperature until 90% attenuation.
4. Gradually bring back down to 65-68F until completion.

Or

Pitch at 65-67F and forget about it.

Thanks for your help guys.

You'd better be using plenty of simple sugar to be banking on 90% attenuation. You'll get minimal ester production at 65F, which is fine, but I'd go with 67F and maintain that. Ramp up the temps slowly as soon as airlock activity starts to slow down.

 

[PseudoChef]

I did a Dark Strong back in March and started out at 1.114 and it ended at 1.021. This was with the Chimay Strain (WLP500), and I pitched about 2/3 cake from a Dubbel fermentation.

I've heard the 3787 is even more attenuative if it's healthy and you pitch a good amount.

Also, for the Westy 12 clone, although I haven't brewed one, I've heard you really want to use the D2 candi syrup as your simple sugar. I haven't tasted this either, but I have made my own candi syrup by further caramelizing corn syrup. In my opinion, the syrup gives much more flavor than the rocks.

 

[korndog]

You'd better be using plenty of simple sugar to be banking on 90% attenuation. You'll get minimal ester production at 65F, which is fine, but I'd go with 67F and maintain that. Ramp up the temps slowly as soon as airlock activity starts to slow down.

Yeah, I didn't phrase that well. I meant when I get close to terminal.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

You'll get minimal ester production at 65F, which is fine, but I'd go with 67F and maintain that. Ramp up the temps slowly as soon as airlock activity starts to slow down.

This is basically what I plan on doing with mine. Let it ferment in ambient temps of 65, then once the krausen starts to fall, break out the blankets and raise it up to about 72 over a day and leave it there for 3-4 days then let it ramp back down to ambient temps.

 

[korndog]

This is basically what I plan on doing with mine. Let it ferment in ambient temps of 65, then once the krausen starts to fall, break out the blankets and raise it up to about 72 over a day and leave it there for 3-4 days then let it ramp back down to ambient temps.

Ok, sounds like we are on the same page.

Have you given any thought to lower than normal oxygenation for increased ester production early on?

 

[Evan!]

Ok, sounds like we are on the same page.

Have you given any thought to lower than normal oxygenation for increased ester production early on?

I wouldn't, especially with a high-gravity beer. You'll more likely than not end up with a stunted, unfinished fermentation.

 

[korndog]

I did a Dark Strong back in March and started out at 1.114 and it ended at 1.021. This was with the Chimay Strain (WLP500), and I pitched about 2/3 cake from a Dubbel fermentation.

I've heard the 3787 is even more attenuative if it's healthy and you pitch a good amount.

Also, for the Westy 12 clone, although I haven't brewed one, I've heard you really want to use the D2 candi syrup as your simple sugar. I haven't tasted this either, but I have made my own candi syrup by further caramelizing corn syrup. In my opinion, the syrup gives much more flavor than the rocks.

Thanks for that. Yes, I plan on using D2.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

Have you given any thought to lower than normal oxygenation for increased ester production early on?

I don't oxygenate at all. I've never had a stuck fermentation and never had a problem with yeast taking off (knock on wood). I know, I know...

To confuse matters even more (I'm a jerk like that sometimes), I'm using WLP570 for both the BDSA and BGSA that I'm doing. Reading this thread and some other recipes had be concerned that I should be using a different yeast for the dark, but then I found this. If JZ can win a gold medal with a BDSA using WLP570, then I'll go ahead and use it.

 

[korndog]

To confuse matters even more (I'm a jerk like that sometimes), I'm using WLP570 for both the BDSA and BGSA that I'm doing. Reading this thread and some other recipes had be concerned that I should be using a different yeast for the dark, but then I found this. If JZ can win a gold medal with a BDSA using WLP570, then I'll go ahead and use it.

Interesting. That recipe is in his book, but he lists 1762 or WLP530 as the yeasts of preference. I was just going to duplicate that recipe, but decided to omit much of the specialty grain. Not second guessing a brewer like Jamil, but I wanted to try something different.

 

[jrhammonds]

Another quick question about step fermenting. Having never done this, how might you go about say taking a batch of brew at 1.113 and start your ferment at 1.080? Would you water it down, then add the full strength wort after the first fermentation was complete and so on?

 

[ohiobrewtus]

Interesting. That recipe is in his book, but he lists 1762 or WLP530 as the yeasts of preference. I was just going to duplicate that recipe, but decided to omit much of the specialty grain. Not second guessing a brewer like Jamil, but I wanted to try something different.

I've seen him use WLP530 and WLP550 for this beer too.

I try to come up with a recipe of my own by reading the BJCP style guidelines, then I'll typically look up recipes by Jamil, QUAFF, etc. to see how they compare. A lot of times I get some really good ideas for specialty grains from others.

Like in Jamil's BDSA BN show he has .5# of Melanoidin malt. I didn't have any on hand, so I never would have included it, but after seeing it and reasing up on what it does for a beer it makes perfect sense to include a bit of it in this style so I picked some up.

Edit - I need to go find some porn, this is my 4k post.

 

[korndog]

I've seen him use WLP530 and WLP550 for this beer too.

I try to come up with a recipe of my own by reading the BJCP style guidelines, then I'll typically look up recipes by Jamil, QUAFF, etc. to see how they compare. A lot of times I get some really good ideas for specialty grains from others.

Like in Jamil's BDSA BN show he has .5# of Melanoidin malt. I didn't have any on hand, so I never would have included it, but after seeing it and reasing up on what it does for a beer it makes perfect sense to include a bit of it in this style so I picked some up.

Edit - I need to go find some porn, this is my 4k post.

Woohoo.... Boneyard time!