15 min. full boil of extract kit

[kojack]

tl;dr: Can I shorten my boil time with an extract kit by increasing boil volume and achieve the same hop utilization?

I've had decent luck with a couple of variations on Basic Brewing's 15 minute extract beers. I'm always looking to shave time off of my brew day, so it occurred to me that this 15 minute boil technique could likely be applied to any extract recipe or kit, provided I adjust the hop quantities accordingly.

Then I got to thinking: NB extract kits typically call for a 2.5 gallon boil for 60 minutes. Increasing the boil volume should improve hop utilization, right? So, what I'm wondering is if there's a standard balance I can strike between increasing my boil volume and decreasing my boil time, that will get me to the same hop utilization as I would had I followed the kit directions.

I've played around with a few IBU calculators, but the results vary quite a bit. Has anyone else played around with this?

 

[Pdeezy]

From a pure IBU stand point...yes, but reaching x IBUs in 15 mins will taste very different than reaching the same x IBUs in 60 mins.

It could be better, but it will be different.

This is an over simplified graph, but you get the general idea.

 

[stratslinger]

I think it boils down to (see what I did there? ) isomerization of the hops... You're not going to fully isomerize your bittering hops in only 15 minutes. So while you might manage to get equivalent IBU's, you're going to have WAY more hops flavor than you might intend, rather than having a simple bittering effect to balance out your malt flavors.

 

[bottlebomber]

Northern Brewer has terrible "instructions". Their advice for using specialty grains alone is enough to discredit them. Since they are kind of a gateway homebrew supplier (I don't personally know any highly experienced brewers that use them) they assume that 1. Your equipment sucks ie you are using your spaghetti pot to brew in and 2. That you can't grasp the more advanced concepts of brewing. Doing a boil of less than 60 minutes would significantly change your beers flavor profile, since it takes time for hops to contribute bitterness whatever your utilization is.

 

[kojack]

Edit: see posts below.

 

[cricky101]

Northern Brewer has terrible "instructions". Their advice for using specialty grains alone is enough to discredit them. Since they are kind of a gateway homebrew supplier (I don't personally know any highly experienced brewers that use them) they assume that 1. Your equipment sucks ie you are using your spaghetti pot to brew in and 2. That you can't grasp the more advanced concepts of brewing. Doing a boil of less than 60 minutes would significantly change your beers flavor profile, since it takes time for hops to contribute bitterness whatever your utilization is.

Off topic, but can you share the suppliers used by the "highly experienced brewers?"

 

[Yooper]

Northern Brewer has terrible "instructions". Their advice for using specialty grains alone is enough to discredit them. Since they are kind of a gateway homebrew supplier (I don't personally know any highly experienced brewers that use them) they assume that 1. Your equipment sucks ie you are using your spaghetti pot to brew in and 2. That you can't grasp the more advanced concepts of brewing. Doing a boil of less than 60 minutes would significantly change your beers flavor profile, since it takes time for hops to contribute bitterness whatever your utilization is.

Northern Brewer is my primary supplier. I guess I must not be a highly experienced brewer?

Anyway, you want to boil your bittering hops as the recipe says, even if you're boiling more or less than the volume in the instructions. The time of the additions is the important thing, not the size of the boil.

 

[FastAndy]

Northern Brewer is my primary supplier. I guess I must not be a highly experienced brewer?

Hang in there Yoop, you'll get there someday.

 

[FastAndy]

This may have been answered many times before but, does extract contain DMS precursors like grain does that would benefit from a longer boil? Especially pilsen extract?

 

[bottlebomber]

Northern Brewer is my primary supplier. I guess I must not be a highly experienced brewer?

Anyway, you want to boil your bittering hops as the recipe says, even if you're boiling more or less than the volume in the instructions. The time of the additions is the important thing, not the size of the boil.

It's ok Yoop, with enough time (and the same amount of luck...) you too can be a great brewer. did I push it? Is NB your LHBS? Because if that was the case I can see it being your primary, but if it is your mail order supplier it just doesn't make sense to me... NBs prices are as much as 30% higher than many other flat-rate shipping brew shops and their grain crushes leave me with chronically poor efficiency. For someone who brews every other weekend, I can't honestly see why you would pay the extra $$ if that was the case.

NB appeals to new brewers because they have a glitzy catalogue that makes brewing appealing and fun. I have easily spent $1500 with NB. However aside from their overpriced AG systems they offer in their catalogue, there is no emphasis on AG brewing whatsoever. There is a small list stating that some of the extract kits they offer are also offered as AG, but that's it. Most experienced brewers graduate from extract kits before long. The only person in my homebrew club who uses them is an extract brewer. Every other brewer buys grain in bulk with the exception of myself as I don't have a mill yet.

 

[bottlebomber]

Off topic, but can you share the suppliers used by the "highly experienced brewers?"

Check out Brewmaster's Warehouse. Their prices are much better, their kits contain liquid yeast and are usually cheaper than NBs kits BEFORE you buy the yeast, you get an additional 10% off the already cheap prices by typing BBYOB, if you are AG their crush is perfect, if you aren't their extract is less expensive. The only downside is they don't have a catalogue, and their website is very plain jane, but I would personally rather not pay extra to maintain a fancy website.

 

[kojack]

I'm afraid my earlier reply got moderated for some reason, which is a bummer. Here's a recap:

Using John Palmer's hop utilization chart, seen here: How to Brew - By John Palmer - Hop Bittering Calculations you can determine the amount of bitterness extracted from a hop addition given the density of the wort and length of the boil.

Let's take a hypothetical batch with an OG of 1.060.

A standard 60-minute partial boil of the extract in 2.5 gallons of water (per NB's "terrible instructions"), would yield a boil gravity of around 1.120. Per Palmer's table, a 60 min. bittering addition would get you utilization of 0.123.

Take the same batch, but use a full 5 gallon boil, and the boil gravity would be around 1.060 (give or take). A 15 minute addition would only get you utilization of 0.105. Not enough to replicate the bitterness.

However, according to Palmer's table, a 20 minute addition in the full boil would get utilization of 0.128, which exceeds the standard 60-minute partial boil.

So, it seems to me that by doubling the boil volume (or halving the wort density), you can decrease the boil time of this hypothetical batch by 2/3. All of these calculations are a little squishy, and this doesn't take into account the difference in utilization of the later hop additions given the less dense wort, but it strikes me as worthy of some experimentation at the very least.

 

[Yooper]

Well, John Palmer later retracted that whole "formula" thing and now says that IBUs are independent of wort gravity! He started talking about this differently in 2008, but even more recently he's spoken about it on his podcasts and at the NHC.

Changing the size of the boil only affects the IBUs a minute amount, if at all. Especially with extract batches, and Palmer now says that it's break material that might impact hops utilizatin, but certainly not wort gravity.

 

[kojack]

Interesting, Yooper. I've got a couple of replies to this thread that I think are stuck in moderation due to links to Palmer's utilization table. Sounds like that might be out the window anyway.

 

[Yooper]

It's ok Yoop, with enough time (and the same amount of luck...) you too can be a great brewer. did I push it? Is NB your LHBS? Because if that was the case I can see it being your primary, but if it is your mail order supplier it just doesn't make sense to me... NBs prices are as much as 30% higher than many other flat-rate shipping brew shops and their grain crushes leave me with chronically poor efficiency. For someone who brews every other weekend, I can't honestly see why you would pay the extra $$ if that was the case.

No, it's not my LHBS. I order everything online, unless I happen to be in Milwaukee or Minneapolis (about once or twice a year). I order just as often from Brewmaster's Warehouse and less often from Austin Home Brew. I've never seen NB's crush (I crush my own) and sometimes their prices are better than the others, sometimes not. I brew once per week, and spend about $100 a month on supples (excluding hops which I buy by the pound and big sacks of grain). So I spend plenty of money among the various online Vendors!

 

[Yooper]

Interesting, Yooper. I've got a couple of replies to this thread that I think are stuck in moderation due to links to Palmer's utilization table. Sounds like that might be out the window anyway.

I'll check the moderation queue, (been busy brewing today!) and release them if they are. Check out Basic Brewing Radio with John Palmer, called "What is an IBU really?". I think that was about when Palmer first said he was incorrect with the formula. When I saw him in 2008, this was fairly new thinking and we didn't talk much about it. But when we talked last year (2010) at NHC, we covered it a bit more thoroughly. I won't pretend I understood what he said (the science behind it), but the gist of it is that hops utilization is independent of boil size and gravity. He does concede that sometimes you can notice differences, and perhaps that is because of break material, but a Basic Brewing Radio experiment from about a year ago had brewers brew the same beer as a partial boil, full boil, late extract addition, etc. There were no differences in IBUs in the same recipe.

 

[kojack]

Check out Basic Brewing Radio with John Palmer, called "What is an IBU really?". I think that was about when Palmer first said he was incorrect with the formula.

Listened to the episode last night. Thanks for the recommendation. Seems like Palmer had to pretty thoroughly walk back his utilization calculations.

I still may end up experimenting with shorter boils on extract batches, especially recipes with a hop profile leaning toward flavor and aroma.

 

[biestie]

Pretty interesting discussion. I don't do a lot of extracts, but the ones I do are really when I want a short turnaround beer that I've made a lot of in the past. I'm confident in the recipe and don't use any brewing software. I typically add about half the extact at the beginning and half at the end.

What I got out of the Palmer podcast is that sg doesn't directly affect hop utilization, but more extract in the boil can lead to more hot break and poorer utilization. So in a sense it indirectly affects it.

So I typed a extract American pale ale that I make every now and then into beersmith. Changing when I add the extract did affect the ibus, but I only had to change the amount of bittering hops (8% horizon) by a few grams to get it back to the original value. So I think even if you're using a formula that accounts for og, it doesn't make much of a difference.

On the other hand, the difference is more significant in a partial boil, which Palmer kind of mentioned on the podcast that the amount of hot break might be significant in a partial boil vs full boil since the wort is more concentrated.

 

[kojack]

So I typed a extract American pale ale that I make every now and then into beersmith. Changing when I add the extract did affect the ibus, but I only had to change the amount of bittering hops (8% horizon) by a few grams to get it back to the original value. So I think even if you're using a formula that accounts for og, it doesn't make much of a difference.

The fact that wort gravity affected IBUs in Beersmith at all makes me wonder if it's still calculating based on the old utilization formulas. Anyone know how IBUs are being calculated in these tools?

 

[biestie]

You can select one of three formulas in beersmith. I use tinseth. They all factor in the gravity though. In my opinion that doesn't really matter. Use it as is and be consistent. I use brewing software to get me in the ballpark and I go by what I like as I tweak I new recipe. IBU is just a number. There are plenty of other things that affect how bitter a beer is (or at least how bitter our taste buds think it is).

 

[Weizenwerks]

NB appeals to new brewers because they have a glitzy catalogue that makes brewing appealing and fun. I have easily spent $1500 with NB. However aside from their overpriced AG systems they offer in their catalogue, there is no emphasis on AG brewing whatsoever. There is a small list stating that some of the extract kits they offer are also offered as AG, but that's it. Most experienced brewers graduate from extract kits before long. The only person in my homebrew club who uses them is an extract brewer. Every other brewer buys grain in bulk with the exception of myself as I don't have a mill yet.

The catalog is limited in content due to costs. It's also promotional to steer you to their website which has much more content than their paper catalog.

I see plenty of AG kits on their site: Northern Brewer - All-Grain Beer Recipe Kits : Northern Brewer

When I buy grain from NB, it's one state over so standard shipping arrives next day for me. MoreBeer!, Brewmaster's Warehouse, Williams, can't match that speed.

Unfortunately for my local homebrewers, their LHBS is a co-op that sells Brewer's Best extract kits, has maybe 20lbs of grain in stock, a half dozen varieties of White Labs, and a few buckets and carboys. Yikes!