13 gallons of unintentionally wild Brown, can I use it?.

[frolickingmonkey]

Wow, I just stumbled across this thread! And... subscribed!

 

[COLObrewer]

I would suggest oak barrel. I think the slow gas exchange the barrel allows for is something you can't get with chips or additives.

I'll probably try this with half and just use chips in the other half.

 

[COLObrewer]

So, it has re-formed the pellicle after racking half off into the sankementor, A pellicle is also formed in the keg, so now, I'll add some oak and possibly feed it more brown, then taste it every couple months for a few, maybe by summer it'll be good to bottle, maybe not.

Moon shot?

 

[COLObrewer]

I have a question, well a few actually,

Recap:
This Oud Bruin is doing great so far. The reason it soured originally, I guess, is the fact that it never dropped below 1.040 during initial fermentation which caused me to wait a couple of months trying to get it down. The reason for that, I guess, is the high percentage of brown malt I used, 50%.

So after a couple months in the large fermentor with alot of head space and me checking/sampling it, it formed a pellicle (Presumeably lacto) from wild bugs from my cellar. I have since added dregs from Russian Rivers temptation, peaches and fermenting peach pulp from the top of a wine fermentation.

So here are the questions I have, keep in mind I have very little experience with wild fermentations so far.
1. Is there any way for me to tell if the bugs from the temptation dregs have taken off? Will it have a more vinegary flavor? Do I need to add oak for these "new" bugs to work?
2. Whatever I do to it, it keeps forming a pellicle, I think this is good, will the pellicle remain until fermentation is complete?
3. Can I expect these bugs to ferment out all the remaining sugars and bring gravity down to 1.0000 or thereabouts?
4. Does one bottle this when fermentation is complete?
5. Or, . . . Does it keep souring/changing after FG is reached?

More info:
It is all in the cellar which is at appx. 46F right now.
I will be adding oak at some point, probably in the form of a dowel, I have plans to save the dowel(s) in the rafters of the cellar trying to re-use it for the next sour (assuming the beer turns out good).

 

[ryane]

1 - Take gravity readings and/or taste it

2 - pellicle is just a response to oxygen in the headspace, you say it keeps reforming, are you mixing it up to get it to drop? if so dont, oxygen and brett = ethyl acetate aka nail polish remover, Ive yet to see a pellicle actually drop on its own and Ive done quite few sours, what it will do though is if its bumped etc and it drops or submerges a bit it will not reform on the surface

It can get vinegary if too much 02 gets in there ie no pellicle lots of 02, but id put my bet on ethyl acetate if thta happens, no oak is not needed but it allows a nice place for bugs to grow which you can subsequently add to batches later

3 - I dont think it will get to 10000, Id guess somewhere in teh 1008 range

4 - bottle when it tastes good, you can stabilize with campden, a lot of times blending really helps these beers so keep that in mind

5 - after a FG is reached it wont sour, some organic acids and esters may be assimiliated by the bugs and transformed but not much else is going to happen

 

[COLObrewer]

. . . you say it keeps reforming, are you mixing it up to get it to drop? if so dont, oxygen and brett = ethyl acetate aka nail polish remover . . .

Nope, just reformed after I added the peaches (formed over the floating portion of peach pulp) and then again after I strained the floating portion and racked half off the peaches into a different fermentor.

. . bottle when it tastes good, you can stabilize with campden, a lot of times blending really helps these beers so keep that in mind. . .

So blending would be with another "finished" beer? Does this need to be a "young" finished wild beer (Gueueze I guess)? Or can I campden after blending a normal yeast fermented beer. I do plan on feeding this more brown in the next 2-4 months, does this have any bearing on blending?

When you say blending helps, Is that for one that is overly sour or in some other way undesireable. Or just to mellow some flavors?

I'll probably end up bottling some of it straight anyway since this is all a big experiment for me.

I wish I could find an example of a good commercial flanders brown around here, what's a good one to look for, imported or not?

Another question(s), I've heard that high alcohol content will inhibit the wild bugs, at what point is this? Is this only for bugs added to an already high ABV brew? What is an example of the highest ABV wild brew?

Thanx for all.

 

[COLObrewer]

A little update on this brew, I emptied this into a kegermentor while straining the peaches out, it's been a few months, didn't taste it because it was mucky, so both halves are in kegs now, the other half was racked off the fruit before the porter was fed to it. both kegs have an oak spiral in them.

 

[jessup]

is there a football floating in there? lolz... it looks like the pattern of a zipper or the threads of a football. super strange. you should add your photos to my Pellicle Photo Collection:cross: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/pellicle-photo-collection-174033/

 

[COLObrewer]

Tasted these yesterday with gravity test, They are getting sour again, both have a subtle rotten peach after taste that really makes them complex. The one that has been on peaches the longest is noticeably more sour with the sourness overpowering the peachness, pellicles have re-formed in the kegs since warming from winter. Gravity on both is now appx. 1.026, still high but it doesn't surprise me since initial fermentation never got below 1.040. Both are clearing nicely at this point and have a deep orange/brown colour. Both kegs still have an oak spiral in them.

I plan on bottling this in the fall, unless the gravity keeps falling or it changes drastically in other ways that require further action. I presume the warmer summer months will spur on the bug activity, cellar temp right now is fluctuating between 60F and 68F, in the winter it got as low as 36F, it was a long cold winter here.

Keep on brewing my friends

 

[artyboy]

This thread is awesome. I've been wanting to play around with some wild brews but I have a tendency to get mold instead of yeast when I try. I hope this batch turns out. Hopefully, I'll get lucky soon and get something that I can actually work with.

 

[COLObrewer]

This thread is awesome. I've been wanting to play around with some wild brews but I have a tendency to get mold instead of yeast when I try. I hope this batch turns out. Hopefully, I'll get lucky soon and get something that I can actually work with.

I'm not sure obout the original wild yeast, I'm certain the rock cellar I use has all manner of wild things in it (including newts). if you don't have such a "place" you could always just pitch some dregs? I'm pretty sure you'll want to keep it cool also, this helps keep some mold at bay I think.

Keep on brewing my friends

 

[COLObrewer]

Fellow brewers, an update on this sour brew.
I pulled samples again to see what it's doing and to decide what the next step is. Both kegs are at ~1.020 so it's obviously still going, dropped .006 in 2 months and it is turning more tart than sour the peach flavor has receded to the finish (It becomes more apparent after it breaths a while) and it still has a nice musty/peachy aroma. The maltiness is starting to fade to the background so I'm fairly certain I'm going to want to blend this with something when it's done.

Here's a photo wth the sun behind it.

Gravity shot.

Normal photo, you can see the bits of pelical floating.

I believe I want to re-combine both kegs, then use the empty one to start more of this, each keg still has an oak spiral dowel in them, I really can't tell any influence from the oak as far as flavor, is there anything wrong with leaving the oak in for the duration?

I guess I should remove the trub after I empty the one keg then after the new batch primary fermentation I can replace the oak dowel to hopefully re-introduce the same bugs, or should I simply put the dowel in when I start it? This is what I'm leaning towards.

One of the reasons I want to combine them now is that the peaches are in season again and I really like what it's giving me and I'd like to get another batch going.

I will also probably use my juniper yeast for the initial sacc. fermentation also.

Any thoughts are welcome.

 

[jfr1111]

First picture is amazing.

 

[COLObrewer]

Well it's been about 3.5 months since anything on this, I tested it and it was down to 1.012 for a couple weeks so I decided to bottle. It is going to be a great beer, really complex sour maltiness coupled with old peach layered with a smoky finish.

Ended up bottling about 14 gallons total, I kept both seperate labeling them lambic 1 and lambic 2, I primed them with appx. 2/3 cup sucrose per 5 gallons, here are some pics:

Was able to scrape up enough bottles for some corking also:

Now just need to speed up time to the year 2013 maybe so I can try some.

I saved the trub from one of the sanke and added some already infected pumpkin wheat, it was also infected with the wild yeast from the cellar, here's that thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/my-beer-infected-pic-199206/

I placed both the oak spirals in it with the new addition and will be feeding it in the future.

Keep on brewing my friends

 

[COLObrewer]

It's awesome, even at the low carbonation state it is at. It is over the top sour, thick, rich, malty, roasty, peachy, hint of vanilla, very complex. I'm putting it in the local fair competition this week, we'll see what others have to say, I doubt they've tasted anything like this, ever.

It's like heaven I'm so very glad I kept this going in the cellar, I should be able to bottle more next year.

 

[tasq]

Looks great! Send me a bottle

 

[COLObrewer]

Looks great! Send me a bottle

We could make a special trade What do you have?

 

[Germelli1]

Exactly what I was thinking ^^ I have never really enjoyed sour beers, but I have been giving it a shot. It is more the $5 for 12 oz of something I havn't grown a full appriciation for that is holding my back from really sampling the market.

Wish I was out your way to sample some!

 

[FromZwolle]

congrats! i'm just now breaking into my first really experimental beer and i'm a little dissapointed with it. i really should have fed the bugs some more.

 

[Germelli1]

Actually, are there any commercial beers you want from the east coast that I could trade? My recent moves have caused me to just now be getting my pipeline back up and running

 

[FromZwolle]

Exactly what I was thinking ^^ I have never really enjoyed sour beers, but I have been giving it a shot. It is more the $5 for 12 oz of something I havn't grown a full appriciation for that is holding my back from really sampling the market.

Wish I was out your way to sample some!

$5 for a sour sounds like a good deal. that's one morning's coffee. i can't seem to find much of anything at my local shops.

 

[tasq]

We could make a special trade What do you have?

All of my sours are too young currently. I'm afraid I wouldn't have anything comparable to offer at this time. My oldest is a 7 month old Flanders red, that tastes great, but still is lacking the sour punch I'm after.

 

[COLObrewer]

Actually, are there any commercial beers you want from the east coast that I could trade? My recent moves have caused me to just now be getting my pipeline back up and running

Hmmm, dunno, what do they have over there that I can't get?

 

[COLObrewer]

All of my sours are too young currently. I'm afraid I wouldn't have anything comparable to offer at this time. My oldest is a 7 month old Flanders red, that tastes great, but still is lacking the sour punch I'm after.

This is still pretty young in my opinion also, needs more time to carb.

 

[jtakacs]

awesome colo! i have a belgian pale ale that got a nasty infection and even though i brew sours, i'm going to try to make this one drinkable. mine's got a nasty acetone ethyl acetate aroma/taste... not sure how volatile that stuff is so i have no idea how much of it will just breathe off...

 

[mlg5039]

I just read this thread for the first time, and wow!! That is one happy ending. Good job.

 

[onthekeg]

Here is my 3 year old sour that I pitched dregs from Jolly Pumpkin LaRoja into. I have been running the culture in solera fashion since may 09, and this was almost a year old when I bottled it. We could do a bottle swap if interested. Denny had some last year at the NHC and he said there was too much going on in it, and Kai wasn't sure what to think. I don't think they are sour beer lovers though.
On top of that, I have a kegged sour eisbier that is over the top sour. When I iced it the flavors got real concentrated. I could send you one of those too if you wanted to get a little crazy.

 

[Revvy]

Brother COLO, I forgot about this thread, and went back to the beginning. Boy you were such a noob back then, but look how far you have come!!!

That beer looks awesome, hard to believe it came from such an ugly looking mess.

 

[COLObrewer]

Here's an update after the local fair, not sure two of the judges knew what was happening with it or didn't have sour beer experience. Also there wasn't a specific sour category, it had to go in the Belgian/Strong category. I expected the lack of carbonation to be a problem and it was. Score ended up at 22.7avg. The scoresheets follow:

The funny thing about this competition is that I put in a Heather ale that had soured in the bottle as a lambic and it won second place in the Fruit/Veggie/Spice category with a score of 43.3, I believe in this case it's all in who is judging what, they were different judges.

Ah well, this beer will be better next year and in my opinion is GREAT right now. I would like to place it in a more "professional" competition, I'll probably wait for the proper amount of carbonation however.

 

[IffyG]

Score sheets like that reinforce why I don't bother with competitions.