120V Electric Keggle - 1500W vs. 2000W

[pfleming]

I am starting to amass parts to build an electric keggle and am having a difficult time choosing an element. First some basics about the project: I live in an apartment that only has 120V available, but I have outlets on two 20A circuits within 6 ft of each other; I want to do 5 gallon batches; eventually, I will add a PID, SSR etc.

So here is my dilemma: if I use two 1500W elements (which are widely available in low/ultra-low density), boil will be achieved quite slowly. On the other hand, if I use two 2000W elements (which seem to be only available in high density), I risk scorching the wort.

Oh wise brewers, which elements should I use?

 

[juvinious]

I use two HD 2000W elements and have yet to experience so called "Scorching."

 

[jkarp]

No worries at all about scorching, but either setup will work. I'd probably go the 2 x 2KW simply to cut heating times.

 

[mariojr]

There is a link on page two of this thread

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ok-i-give-174284/index2.html

that has an spreadsheet that will calculate heating times for various elements. It may help you make a decision as to what you want to use.

 

[Yooper]

I have a 1500 W element in my HLT. It takes 90 minutes to get my tap water (45 degrees) to 170 or so. I guess I can look at the spreadsheet to see how long it would take to get to a boil, but I imagine it's a LONG time! Bigger is better, at least in this case!

 

[pfleming]

Thanks for the quick responses.

A couple of other issues I forgot to mention. If I go with two 1500W elements, I think I can leave both elements on and maintain an appropriate boil. Will two 2000W elements need to be throttled back once a boil begins, and, if so, will simply shutting off one of the elements work?

Also, can one PID control two SSRs, which in turn each control one element, and how would that need to be wired (my guess is parallel, but I want to be sure)?

 

[Mose]

Thanks for the quick responses.

A couple of other issues I forgot to mention. If I go with two 1500W elements, I think I can leave both elements on and maintain an appropriate boil. Will two 2000W elements need to be throttled back once a boil begins, and, if so, will simply shutting off one of the elements work?

Also, can one PID control two SSRs, which in turn each control one element, and how would that need to be wired (my guess is parallel, but I want to be sure)?

I can't help you with the wiring, but a ton of guys here can.

This link, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/, is to one of the above posters, JKarp, brew system. Very cool build that I am using as a model as well. If you read through the complete thread, long but worth every bit of it, you'll see some guys using the dual 2k watt system and turning one off, the other gets cycled back with the PID. If you do the math, you might be able to mix and match the power of the elements and maintain a boil without PID control. Your boil time will obviously suffer with a drop in power of any kind. More math involved than I'm willing to do most any day but much less in the morning, and frankly I lack the skills. Good luck, hope to see a thread on your build.

 

[passedpawn]

More is better. Here's some test data I measured on 10g and a 5500W element in an uninsulated keggle. Two 1500W elements are going to be about 2 times as much time (5500W / 3000W).

(click pic for big readable version)

 

[Ohio-Ed]

More is better. Here's some test data I measured on 10g and a 5500W element in an uninsulated keggle. Two 1500W elements are going to be about 2 times as much time (5500W / 3000W).

(click pic for big readable version)

That looks very linear.

My experience has been more of a curve where the further you get from ambient, the longer it takes to heat. In other words... going from 70f to 80f is quicker than going from 190f to 200f.

Ed

 

[passedpawn]

That looks very linear.

My experience has been more of a curve where the further you get from ambient, the longer it takes to heat. In other words... going from 70f to 80f is quicker than going from 190f to 200f.

Ed

It's real, believe me. Logging thermometer. Totally raw data. I know, almost unreal linear.

Technically, it should be exactly linear. However, heat loss to the enviroment will bend it a little. This is because the rate of loss increases as the differential between the pot and the air increases. If you put a straightedge on my curve, you will see there is a very slight bend.

BTW, that flat spot at the very end is where it started boiling.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I use two HD 2000W elements and have yet to experience so called "Scorching."

+1

I use two 2000 watt heatsticks for my boil. They have produced no scorching of any kind, including light beers that are almost clear. No color, taste or aroma of any kind that would indicate scorching.

 

[jkarp]

Thanks for the quick responses.

A couple of other issues I forgot to mention. If I go with two 1500W elements, I think I can leave both elements on and maintain an appropriate boil. Will two 2000W elements need to be throttled back once a boil begins, and, if so, will simply shutting off one of the elements work?

Also, can one PID control two SSRs, which in turn each control one element, and how would that need to be wired (my guess is parallel, but I want to be sure)?

I think you may find even 3KW too much for the boil, depending on your kettle geometry, insulation, etc. I'd suggest two SSRs, switching both. Double check your PID and SSR current ratings, but the Auber SSRs sink around 15mA and their PIDs I've looked at can source 40mA so you'd be just fine. Yes, wire in parallel.

 

[Jawbox0]

I use two 1500W elements in a 32 quart boil kettle. The kettle is insulated using reflective insulation. I find that the time to boil between 5-7 gallons is acceptable to me (maybe twenty minutes to take the water from ~160 to boil), however I find that a single element isn't enough to maintain a boil on its own. If you have PIDs and Sensors, it would work, but if you're running it manually you'll want to just run both elements if you choose 1500W. 3000W at 110V provides a little less than 1G boil-off per hour for me.

I purposely chose 1500W since I don't know that my next rental would actually have 20A circuits and it works for me.

 

[BoilerInSoCal]

Please forgive my ignorance for this question. If you don't have 240 service, but you have two 15 Amp outlets (on different circuits) in close proximity to each other, is it still possible to use a single 4500 or 5500 W element? That is, can you wire the hots from each circuit to the element and direct the neutrals and grounds to terminal blocks?

Something along the lines of a 5500W element connected to a three prong dryer cord (ala The Pols Bling Bling write up) with a control panel that has a three prong (30 AMP) receptacle, where the the two hots of the receptacle are powered by the hots from the two 15 AMP circuits (via SSRs and BCS/PIDs).

I'm probably missing something very obviously basic and important, but thought this may be a nice solution to those who don't have 240.

 

[passedpawn]

Please forgive my ignorance for this question. If you don't have 240 service, but you have two 15 Amp outlets (on different circuits) in close proximity to each other, is it still possible to use a single 4500 or 5500 W element? That is, can you wire the hots from each circuit to the element and direct the neutrals and grounds to terminal blocks?

Something along the lines of a 5500W element connected to a three prong dryer cord (ala The Pols Bling Bling write up) with a control panel that has a three prong (30 AMP) receptacle, where the the two hots of the receptacle are powered by the hots from the two 15 AMP circuits (via SSRs and BCS/PIDs).

I'm probably missing something very obviously basic and important, but thought this may be a nice solution to those who don't have 240.

Absolutely do NOT do this. Mixing ckts like this is a serious no-no. If you found 2 ckts of opposite phase, you'd blow a breaker almost immediately. Maybe two breakers. Hopefully. Or your wire insulation would melt in the walls.

 

[Wade E]

Hows about using a 1500 and a 2000? Use them both to get the boil going and then kill the 1500.

 

[BoilerInSoCal]

Absolutely do NOT do this. Mixing ckts like this is a serious no-no. If you found 2 ckts of opposite phase, you'd blow a breaker almost immediately. Maybe two breakers. Hopefully. Or your wire insulation would melt in the walls.

Oh well. I figured something couldn't be right about that "solution", as I've never seen it mentioned before.

 

[pfleming]

Thanks again for all of the responses. I think I am going to use two HD 2000W elements, which, in addition to all of the other benefits, will provide another excuse to put together a PID/SSR system.

Also, special thanks to jkarp, via mose. I read the various threads on jkarp's systems months ago -- they sparked my desire to build an electric system. I didn't remember how much great information is in those threads but rereading them has resolved many of my lingering concerns.

But, one last question: in order to ground the elements can I drill a hole in the base of the keggle (i.e. the base of the keg such that the actual kettle won't be breached) and attach the ground wire with a screw?

Jkarp said, "Screw the hot (black wire) to one, the neutral (white) to the other, and leave the green loose so you can wedge it between the element and the kettle for the ground." See Countertop Brutus 20 thread at p31. This makes sense except that, unless I am missing something, it seems like it would increase the chance that the element doesn't seal well with the kettle.

 

[pfleming]

I can't help you with the wiring, but a ton of guys here can.

This link, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/, is to one of the above posters, JKarp, brew system. Very cool build that I am using as a model as well. If you read through the complete thread, long but worth every bit of it, you'll see some guys using the dual 2k watt system and turning one off, the other gets cycled back with the PID. If you do the math, you might be able to mix and match the power of the elements and maintain a boil without PID control. Your boil time will obviously suffer with a drop in power of any kind. More math involved than I'm willing to do most any day but much less in the morning, and frankly I lack the skills. Good luck, hope to see a thread on your build.

I plan on taking lots of pictures and, if all goes well, will certainly start a build thread.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Thanks again for all of the responses. I think I am going to use two HD 2000W elements, which, in addition to all of the other benefits, will provide another excuse to put together a PID/SSR system.

Also, special thanks to jkarp, via mose. I read the various threads on jkarp's systems months ago -- they sparked my desire to build an electric system. I didn't remember how much great information is in those threads but rereading them has resolved many of my lingering concerns.

But, once last question: in order to ground the elements can I drill a hole in the base of the keggle (i.e. the base of the keg such that the actual kettle won't be breached) and attach the ground wire with a screw?

Jkarp said, "Screw the hot (black wire) to one, the neutral (white) to the other, and leave the green loose so you can wedge it between the element and the kettle for the ground." See Countertop Brutus 20 thread at p31. This makes sense except that, unless I am missing something, it seems like it would increase the chance that the element doesn't seal well with the kettle.

Yes, you can ground the keg with a screw in the bottom skirt.

 

[jkarp]

But, once last question: in order to ground the elements can I drill a hole in the base of the keggle (i.e. the base of the keg such that the actual kettle won't be breached) and attach the ground wire with a screw?

Jkarp said, "Screw the hot (black wire) to one, the neutral (white) to the other, and leave the green loose so you can wedge it between the element and the kettle for the ground." See Countertop Brutus 20 thread at p31. This makes sense except that, unless I am missing something, it seems like it would increase the chance that the element doesn't seal well with the kettle.

Absolutely ground to a bolt mounted in the skirt. My approach was a compromise for folks to avoid having to seal another hole in the kettle.

 

[passedpawn]

I screwed a hole and used a short bolt with a nut and lockwasher. I'm not taking a chance on a floating or flakey gnd.

 

[pfleming]

I screwed a hole and used a short bolt with a nut and lockwasher. I'm not taking a chance on a floating or flakey gnd.

Point taken. I'm not big on taking chances with these sorts of things either.

 

[HarkinBanks]

FWIW, I recently scorched and blew two 2000w HD elements in my CB20 clone system. So I downgraded to 1500w HD elements and just scorched one of them this weekend brewing up a wit. I am not sure if it is the wiring in my old house or if the scorched element is possibly lying in hops or grist, but I am now moving to 1500w ultra low density elements from plumbing supply. I have them on order and believe this should solve my scorching problem. I brewed over a dozen batches with my 2000w elements with no issues and then hit this scorching problem out of the blue.

 

[mattd2]

If you want to estimate the time to boil use this
147.2 x gallons x (212 - water start temperature in deg F) / total element watts = time in minutes (you can also change the 212 to a different temperature to estimate the time to get there, i.e. strike water temperature)
It will give you a rough idea on how long it will take to boil (plugged in the numbers from the graph early in this post and it came out at 38 mins.)
We have 230v single phase power over here, so I'm looking at using a single 3500 W element which would draw about 15 A.

 

[pfleming]

I went with two 2000W elements. Everything went well during the installation, until I plugged in the elements. One of the elements works perfectly, but the other trips the GFCI as soon as I plug it in. Since the element's electric connections are covered in about 2 inches of JB Weld, I think I am SOL. Is there anything I can do or should I scrape this element and build a new one?

 

[mattd2]

You have probably already done this but... Have you tried swapping the elements/GFCIs over just to make sure it is the element and not the GFCI.

 

[pfleming]

You have probably already done this but... Have you tried swapping the elements/GFCIs over just to make sure it is the element and not the GFCI.

Yeah, I definitely tried that. No luck.

 

[rabeb25]

You can always swap the wires around on the plug end if you think you reversed them.

 

[pfleming]

You can always swap the wires around on the plug end if you think you reversed them.

That's an interesting idea. If I did wire them backwards, would that trip the GFCI?