120v blichmann boil coil

[jcs401]

Ok so what 120 element would get a 5 g batch to boil if on a 15-20 amp circuits? Any??

 

[wilserbrewer]

Bobby M @ brewhardware.com

Or you can use a HWD 2000w and live dangerously like I do...ymmv

 

[broadbill]

Bobby M @ brewhardware.com

Or you can use a HWD 2000w and live dangerously like I do...ymmv

I too like to live dangerously with my HWD 2000w element...not a BobbyM version, although I may move to one of them at some point. I'm on the training wheels version ($12 Camco version on amazon), having already "popped" one by letting my eKettle run dry.

 

[wilserbrewer]

...having already "popped" one by letting my eKettle run dry.

Yea, me too, they sure don't last long energized dry lol. For discussion sake, if I were starting e-brewing today, perhaps I would get ULWD. I started using HWD years ago prior to all this e-brewing discussion when you kinda had to figure it out on your own...hence the HWD element since it was available locally and plentiful.

Old habits die hard...

 

[thekraken]

I take it you really don't want to bite the bullet for 240v service?

I didn't at first either, then I realized just how fast I should be able to heat up my liquids with 5500 watts.

http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html
http://manskirtbrewing.com/calculators.aspx

...I realize that can be an awfully nasty bullet for some.

 

[augiedoggy]

You make it sound that they will get the full 4200W from the 240VAC element when wired on 120V...I don't think that is a case.

I think you will only get 25% of the 4200W...(1125W) if I understand the equasion correctly.

no hes saying that a 4500w element is rated at a max of 4500w at 240v not 220v... at 220v the output is less.. I am assuming the OP means 240v but many here mistakenly refer to is as 220v... like some cal 120v 110v... this is because the range for a 240v appliance is usually 220v-240 and a houshold oulet wired for 240v usually puts out betwwen 235-240v from what Ive seem..
208v on the other hand is different al together and usually found more often in commercial building..

25% is correct as far as the output of a 240v element on 120v.

BTW I have 4 different 4500w 240v elements and they all vary at 240v in output but none put out 4500w... closest I have is one that puts out 43xx watts with actual 240v the weakest I have only puts out 4200w
I have some 1000w 240v heated too and they range from 800w to 1000w output.

 

[augiedoggy]

I too like to live dangerously with my HWD 2000w element...not a BobbyM version, although I may move to one of them at some point. I'm on the training wheels version ($12 Camco version on amazon), having already "popped" one by letting my eKettle run dry.

another advantage of ULWD elements btw is they will run dry without popping for a while... some do this to clean them actually.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok so what 120 element would get a 5 g batch to boil if on a 15-20 amp circuits? Any??

If you insulate the hell out of the kettle you can get a weak boil with 2000w on 6 gallons for a 5 gallon batch but most with 120v run two elements for this reason... 1 alone is not really strong enough and takes a long time to do its thing.

2000w elements require a dedicated 20a circuit... 1600w and less do not they will run on 15 amps... 1250w element draws less and allows some other things to be powered off the same circuit at the same time with attention to current draw.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I conducted a little experiment this afternoon. I put 6 gallons in an 11 gal b/c kettle and heated with a 2000w 120v element. I placed the kettle on a bath towel folded in half, and also wrapped another bath towel around the kettle for insulation.

Ambient temp 63f in my basement.

Time to boil from 152f with pot covered - 37 minutes.

After a 60 minute boil, loss to boil off was 0.65 gallons, or 11% by volume.

Facts rather than speculation.

Can you brew 5 gallon batches w/ 2000w 120v, YES

Is it the best way, NO

Based on the above, I believe the 2500w boil coil would work for 5 gallon batches in a 10 gallon kettle. I would suspect the numbers would be even more favorable using a smaller kettle, say 8 gallon. IME a smaller kettle is a bit more efficient when using low wattage.

No controller required, unless you can turn it up to 11 lol.

Cheers happy new year!
Wilser

 

[augiedoggy]

I conducted a little experiment this afternoon. I put 6 gallons in an 11 gal b/c kettle and heated with a 2000w 120v element. I placed the kettle on a bath towel folded in half, and also wrapped another bath towel around the kettle for insulation.

Ambient temp 63f in my basement.

Time to boil from 152f with pot covered - 37 minutes.

After a 60 minute boil, loss to boil off was 0.65 gallons, or 11% by volume.

Facts rather than speculation.

Can you brew 5 gallon batches w/ 2000w 120v, YES

Is it the best way, NO

Based on the above, I believe the 2500w boil coil would work for 5 gallon batches in a 10 gallon kettle. I would suspect the numbers would be even more favorable using a smaller kettle, say 8 gallon. IME a smaller kettle is a bit more efficient when using low wattage.

No controller required, unless you can turn it up to 11 lol.

Cheers happy new year!
Wilser

Good to know... I have seen people do this experiment over and over and the posted results vary a lot is seems... One reason could be the variance in a 2000w element from one to the next can be hundreds of watts and of course things like achieving a boil in a tall narrow kettle will be easier than a wider short one and such...

I will throw out there that I generally like what I consider a medium boil which in my case results in 1 gallon per hour of boiloff. not that its any standard to go by of course.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Good to know... I have seen people do this experiment over and over....

I have never seen it done. So figured it would be worthwhile.

It irks me sometimes, as many posters claim that it won't work when they have no first hand experience.

Certainly not for everyone, but may fit someone's budget and situation to cheaply brew indoors during unpleasant weather.

I would guess the boil off would be a bit higher with a smaller kettle, with the 11 gallon pot being 1/2 full, the steam was condensing on the tall kettle walls and not making it out of the kettle. Just a hunch.

 

[wilserbrewer]

http://www.westsidewholesale.com/rh...gle_Shopping&gclid=CMGsrdrAicoCFdCPHwodh38CPA

http://www.westsidewholesale.com/rh...gle_Shopping&gclid=CP6m28bCicoCFVCQHwodvTcJZQ

Perhaps something like this as an alternative to the 2500 w boil coil?

 

[AnOldUR]

Didn't do the math, but the SP10874HH is almost 14" long and folds back. That doesn't seem like it would be a HWD like they advertise.

Nice power for a 120V element, but at almost 21 amps, it wouldn't work with most home circuits.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have boiled with 2000 watts in 5 gallons. It's a weaker boil than I generally target but better than a stove.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Nice power for a 120V element, but at almost 21 amps, it wouldn't work with most home circuits.

Yea I realized that as well, so how is one supposed to power the 2500w boil coil? A 30A 110V circuit? That is not very common?

Or are most users just plugging into a 20a circuit and crossing their fingers lol

 

[augiedoggy]

Yea I realized that as well, so how is one supposed to power the 2500w boil coil? A 30A 110V circuit? That is not very common?

Or are most users just plugging into a 20a circuit and crossing their fingers lol

Yes good question... I bet if someone were to measure the resistance its likely they actually put out less than 2500w and draw less than 20a judging by all the elements I have tested. that being said officially you would need a lager than 20a circuit.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Agreed, while not the right thing to do....I have a hunch that the 2500w element just may run for years on a 20a circuit. Can't really remember, but I think I recall accidentally running 2, 2000w elements on a 20 amp circuit, if I recall the breaker eventually tripped but I was shocked how long it took....big oops!!!

 

[BrunDog]

Boil power makes sense. On about 7.5 gallons my 5500W element is powered at 65% duty in a 15 gal kettle. This is the equivalent to ~3600W and produces a pretty strong boil and boil off rate at 1.25 gph. And that's in a very warm ambient environment. I would not want that power to be almost cut in half on my system - I would think the boil would be really weak. Obviously there are designs that do it, such as the grainfather, but it's at the edge. Personally I might not have the patience to wait as long as needed for temp increases on systems now that I have brewed with 240V but clearly they are a solution when 240V is not possible or practical.

 

[jcs401]

So here is what I have come up with in order to do this and stay on a regular outlet gfci in my kitchen.

Going to run 2 1500 watt ULWD elements on each side of my 11gallon kettle. One will be hooked to my Johnson temp control to control the mash and then once the mash is complete, plug in the other 1500 watt element to get to boiling.

Will this work? How long would say 7-8 gallons of water take to boil with two 1500 watt elements??

 

[wilserbrewer]

I'd guess 1/2 hour plus minus mash to boil with the pot covered and insulated using 3000w. 2000w took 37 minutes in my post above.

Is the johnson controller able to handle 1500w? Do realize that you can't fire an element in a stagnant mash, you will need to either stir, or pump with a FB ?

If you have 20 amp circuits available, 2000w elements will give you a lot more giddy up.

 

[augiedoggy]

Do realize that you can't fire an element in a stagnant mash, ?

+1
Especially with the hwd 1500w elements as already discussed... This was the reason I suggested the 2 5500w ripple elements wired for 120v.... The watt density is so low it would be extremely difficult to get scorching even by doing this.. THIS is also the main advantage of the boilcoil over any other single element setup.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Who said hwd? Post above reads ULWD. 2250w is not really enough anyhow. So worried about scorching, gonna build a kettle that barely boils.

 

[jcs401]

I ordered 2 1500 watt ULWD elements. The Johnson controller can handle I believe 15amps which 1500/120v=12.5 amps so I think I'll be alright there. I was trying NOT to drill 2 holes in my kettle but I only have regular kitchen gfci outlets to work with at the moment so I think this may be my only option to move to electric.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I only have regular kitchen gfci outlets to work with at the moment

I believe most modern kitchen outlets are 20A...ymmv - cheers, sounds like your on your way, gonna love e-brewing.

 

[augiedoggy]

Who said hwd? Post above reads ULWD. 2250w is not really enough anyhow. So worried about scorching, gonna build a kettle that barely boils.

I missed that sorry, I wasnt even aware there were ULWD 1500w elements. learn something new every day. Your kidding about the HWD comment right? Honestly you mentioned and even suggested them when you were argueing that they work fine and you havent had any issues with them...
I believe the ulwd elements just came in to consideration by the OP in the last couple pages of the thread here. Thats why I made the suggestions I did originally and the was just stating again all this scorching would be a non issue if the OP went with 2 5500w ripple elements.

2 5500w elements at 120v would be 2750w with each element drawing a max of just under 12 amps. You were the one making the valid point that he could easily have scorching issues with the method he was describing... 2750w is still 250 more than a 120v boil coil and that was what he was originally considering so I dont see a problem with my suggestion being unreasonable... It gives the benefits of the boil coil minus the handy quick disconnect, plus there are more options with a stainless base that wont rust. Do they make all stainless 1500w ulwd elements that wont rust at the base? Depending on the OP's water chemistry it can be a real issue.

2 of these http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PSB3B2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 6000w elements would work better than the 1500w versions but the kettle would need to be over 16" in diameter and then you still have the issue of the base rusting... It would give you 3000w with lower watt density than the 1500w ulwd ones though.

a quick google search shows this has been suggested before.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=368787

 

[jcs401]

Unfortunately my kettle is only 13.5"

 

[wilserbrewer]

My apologies augie, I miscalculated in my head that 2, 5500w elements at 120 would yield only 2200 rather than the correct 2750....I stand corrected and like the approach. 6000w 240v even better

 

[augiedoggy]

Unfortunately my kettle is only 13.5"

Then the 6000w option is out but not the 5500w. As wilserbrewer mentioned you make have to be careful with that johnson controller since they dont work like a pid or pwm controller.... they are slower to react and have a longer time delay between turning off and back on because they have a mechanical relay that not designed for this use (beware you can burn it out faster with this use)... If your just planning on using it for water you wont have to worry about scorching but if you use it to control wort temps you can easily run into a scorch situation because once the element turns off the proteins in the wort along with trub start to settle onto the element, then if they are not distrubed and left there while the element is turned back on you can get scorching of the protien/trub to the element surface. You can always stirss up your wort just prior to firing the element but it would only be a matter of time until you forgot.

I recommend a cheap controller solution such as a stilldragon controller or a pid setup if you want to be able to set hlt temps and walk away.

 

[AnOldUR]

The Johnson A419 has had no problem controlling a 1650W element for about 4 or 5 years. Using a router speed control and stirring prevents scorching.

No need no fancy chit.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Unfortunately my kettle is only 13.5"

Bending these elements to fit smaller kettles is in vogue right now....pretty sure you can increase the bends in the ripple element to "shrink" the length. There is a current thread, but I couldn't find it....