110 breaker tripping

[CaptSwagger]

Hello, for some reason the 110 side of my control panel keeps tripping the breaker (build in progress).. is what i have wire not correct?

There is a HLT side (220v 5500w), a Boil side (240v 4500) and the HEX side (120v 1500w) both the HLT and the boil sides (systems work just fine) Other than the PID being powered from one of the 240 sides (which im told is ok) all three systems are more or less independent of each other.

Checking.. i can plug the system in, and the PID comes on just fine (little red light blinks), and starts switching the SSR (little red light blinks).. but the second element is plugged in it trips the breaker.

i did notice.. that the Output side of the SSR and the N bus show 120v even when the PID is off and not switching it on...? (but im told that there is some leakage of the SSR)??? (high/low) not (on/off)

1500w elment on a 15A circuit is ok right? thats only ~12.5A...

 

[Bobby_M]

I would be checking the wiring for shorts. Check the resistance between all the prongs on the element male plug.

 

[CaptSwagger]

See below (powered off condition)

 

[Facinerous]

From a quick overview. It looks like your switching the pid with a source that is not supplied from the 15A GFCI. Is that correct?

I'm guessing here, but I think that is what is causing the breaker to trip. Try using the same hot to switch the SSR that supplies your element. I think you are tripping the breaker on the GFCI feature and not from pure overcurrent. Unless you have more on that breaker than is shown on your diagram.

 

[raouliii]

If there is infinite resistance across the switched output of the SSR, I don't think should be seeing 0 ohms from the input hot to the enclosure output hot. Measurement mistake? Was that measurement done with the element unplugged?

If the 120v gfci is tripping, there is leakage happening somewhere. If it only happens with the element plugged in, I would focus on that plug and receptacle.

The element looks good. I assume the element measurements were done with it unplugged from the enclosure?

 

[CaptSwagger]

From a quick overview. It looks like your switching the pid with a source that is not supplied from the 15A GFCI. Is that correct?

I'm guessing here, but I think that is what is causing the breaker to trip. Try using the same hot to switch the SSR that supplies your element. I think you are tripping the breaker on the GFCI feature and not from pure overcurrent. Unless you have more on that breaker than is shown on your diagram.

yes the 110 circuit PID is powered from the 220 circuit, the pids are all close to each other so i just jumped another set of 220s over to it. (according to auburdins instructions the PID can be powered by 110 or 220..) but maybe not from a diff circuit?

I think I have something else happening, the 220 gfci breakers i have (2 of them one for the Boil, and one for HLT) the GFCI wires are not hooked up. when they are hooked up they trip.

The breaker has 2 hots, a neutral and the coiled neutral, the non coiled neutral is connected to the neutral bus. At first the i had both neutrals connected to the bus, and both would instantly trip. I have since removed the one coiled neutral, and both the Boil and HLT sides of the system work fine, tested with water and everything.

 

[CaptSwagger]

If there is infinite resistance across the switched output of the SSR, I don't think should be seeing 0 ohms from the input hot to the enclosure output hot. Measurement mistake? Was that measurement done with the element unplugged?

If the 120v gfci is tripping, there is leakage happening somewhere. If it only happens with the element plugged in, I would focus on that plug and receptacle.

The element looks good. I assume the element measurements were done with it unplugged from the enclosure?

no measurement mistake, picture drawing mistake (see below) there is 0 ohms between the neutrals.. (as expected)

and yes it was measured unplugged

And as stated in first post, both the Boil and the HLT circuits work fine..
and the Hex (110) system works fine unitll you plug in something to the receptical (output) i tried both the boil kettle element, and a rough wired in 1500w element (the one that is supposed to be wired in)

it may have been a fluke.. but there was one time where the element was plugged in, but it wasnt getting power.. the light on the pid out was cycling and the light on the SSR was cycling.. but the element wasnt getting hotter. I have not been able to repeat that condition though.

 

[Facinerous]

So it sounds like you have 3 breakers feeding the control cabinet. Two 240V breakers and one 120V breaker.

First for you 240V breakers. Please leave the coiled neutral wire connected to the neutral bus in the panel. Take your neutral from the 240V circuit and land that to the terminal on the breaker. There is a third terminal on those breakers for it.

You need a separate neutral for each 240V circuit in this case. Then can not be shared between the two breakers. Hope that makes sense. If your 240V breakers still trip then you have another problem that may not be related to your 120V wiring, but still cause it to trip.

Here is a you tube link. https://youtu.be/90C9WC-blxc

 

[Bobby_M]

Since you're showing a female plug right after the 15amp GFCI breaker, can you plug the element male plug in directly there to see if the breaker still trips? If it doesn't maybe there is an issue powering the PID off a different circuit.

 

[CaptSwagger]

So it sounds like you have 3 breakers feeding the control cabinet. Two 240V breakers and one 120V breaker.

First for you 240V breakers. Please leave the coiled neutral wire connected to the neutral bus in the panel. Take your neutral from the 240V circuit and land that to the terminal on the breaker. There is a third terminal on those breakers for it.

You need a separate neutral for each 240V circuit in this case. Then can not be shared between the two breakers. Hope that makes sense. If your 240V breakers still trip then you have another problem that may not be related to your 120V wiring, but still cause it to trip.

Here is a you tube link. https://youtu.be/90C9WC-blxc

Yes you are correct, technically 4 breakers, but the 4th is for running lights and an exhaust fan..

so..

I did as you said.. and connected the coily neutural to the buss bar, individually. (see pic) and i turned the power back on and they tripped when i pressed the test button.

and i will connect the other nuturals to the neutrals going to the brew panel. (need some larger wire nuts)

my question.. where do i terminate them in the brew panel? i have a neutral bus bar in there.. but the HLT and the Boil are both 220.. so i dont really need them? with the other circuits connected to the same bus in the brew panel wont that screw with the other gfci's?

Plus my plugins are only 3 prong (should i have gotten 4 prong?)

 

[CaptSwagger]

Since you're showing a female plug right after the 15amp GFCI breaker, can you plug the element male plug in directly there to see if the breaker still trips? If it doesn't maybe there is an issue powering the PID off a different circuit.

Ok ill try that next.

 

[Facinerous]

Cool. I'm starting to feel better about this. Sorry for making more work for you but if we are going to resolve problems lets get all of them resolved.

So it is not well explained yet so lets tackle the next possible point. Which is what you called that neutral bus in your control cabinet. Do you have all the neutrals tied together from all four breakers in your control cabinet?

The reason I ask is because of the nature of electricity, and how the pesky GFCIs work. For them to work properly we need to have each neutral isolated from the others only serving the equipment with their associated breaker.

If you do have them all tied together in your control cabinet, then we will need to separate them from the others. This can be done with more wire nuts, or one terminal block. That is your call.

Also I like the idea of hooking your 115v element directly to the breaker bypassing the control cabinet with the cord ends. This will prove that at least the element, your wiring with the cords, and the breaker are working properly.

Good luck. Be careful.

 

[CaptSwagger]

Oh lol no worries on the more work thing, i want to do it right.

So after i changed then wiring in the sub box, the 110 system quit tripping.

I pressed the test buttons on all the gfci's and it each one of them tests good.

Ok as of now... there is no neutrals going to the control panals for each of the 220v systems. (The 110v neutral is) The wiring diagram is straight from auburins manual for the pids. The neutral wire stops in the plugin box (its coiled up inside, and its not even hooked up in the sub box, see previous photo)

 

[Facinerous]

Awesome.

Well test away on that system. If your 115v breaker still trips, I would try changing the power to the pid from your 220v breaker to the 115v breaker. I'm not sure what SSR you are using, but they are not all electrically isolated from the control side to the switched side.

Hopefully, it works well now for you.

 

[CaptSwagger]

Ok. Yeah everything seems to be working now.

Thanks for your help!