100% RO Water

[rodwha]

I typically filtered my tap water and diluted it with 1/3 RO water and worked from there. But I took that filter off and figured I’d just have to try doctoring up RO water for these two beers I’ll be brewing. I fix up 6.75 gals to use in the mash and sparge and work from there often mashing with 3 gals to give me roughly 1.25 qts/gal.

I have calcium chloride, gypsum, epsom salt, canning salt, baking soda, and pH Down from General Hydroponics that runs 25% phosphoric acid.

Using what I have with the water chemistry calculator on Brewer’s Friend I’ve come up with 2.1 g gypsum, 3.3 g epsom, 1 g salt, and 3.6 g cal chl as the base which gives me Ca 58, Mg 13, Na 45, Cl 92, SO 96. For the blonde I figured up 25 ml of phos acid to get the pH down to 5.44 (I don’t have any testing equipment and typically shoot for this as I didn’t truly know what the exact water profile was that brew compared to the yearly water report figuring it gives me some wiggle room if things are a bit off). And for my version of a dark mild I had a low pH so I added 2.75 g baking soda to achieve a pH of 5.44.

Typically my results according to the calculator blending waters was Ca 77, Mg 15, Na 41, Cl 82, and SO 99. I really wanted my Ca to be in the 70’s but can’t quite seem to get there with what I have.

I’ll likely start brewing with 100% RO water. Is there any changes you’d make to what I’ve done with what I have? And for later down the road is there an additional salt or two you’d use?

 

[rodwha]

Anyone?

 

[day_trippr]

You use a superset of what I keep on hand for "editing" my 100% RO water for brewing.
I've never used epsom salts or baking soda but everything else I've used on every batch, including 25% PA.

As for specific strategies, I use Bru'n Water for calculations and I'm not familiar with the Brewer's Friend web app. Bru'n Water provides a library of water "types" as targets, and using 100% RO makes hitting those numbers pretty easy (hella easier than using my well water - 300 TDS water rarely works well for very light beers no matter what one does). Assuming the BF program provides a similar paradigm I think you'll find your water needs become much easier to manage starting with 100% RO.

For pH I use a decent quality pH meter (Hach Pocket Pro+) to verify the results, and keep plenty of recipe notes to continuously refine the additions. My RO system output is 6 TDS so the need for acid was greatly diminished, but most recipes still require a bit of PA...

Cheers!

 

[rodwha]

You use a superset of what I keep on hand for "editing" my 100% RO water for brewing.
I've never used epsom salts or baking soda but everything else I've used on every batch, including 25% PA.

As for specific strategies, I use Bru'n Water for calculations and I'm not familiar with the Brewer's Friend web app. Bru'n Water provides a library of water "types" as targets, and using 100% RO makes hitting those numbers pretty easy (hella easier than using my well water - 300 TDS water rarely works well for very light beers no matter what one does). Assuming the BF program provides a similar paradigm I think you'll find your water needs become much easier to manage starting with 100% RO.

For pH I use a decent quality pH meter (Hach Pocket Pro+) to verify the results, and keep plenty of recipe notes to continuously refine the additions. My RO system output is 6 TDS so the need for acid was greatly diminished, but most recipes still require a bit of PA...

Cheers!

I Googles this and found it’s highest operating temp to be 122*. I’m guessing you have to cool down your mash sample to check it?

Is there any real difference between the standard model and the Pro+? It seems that instead of being +/- 0.1 but +/- 0.02 pH is the only real difference.

 

[dsaavedra]

I always use 100% RO and adjust with CaCl, CaSO4, and lactic acid. I use Brewers Friend to work out the amounts of each based on a desired profile (usually ball park profiles like "light and hoppy" or "amber and malty") and desired mash pH (5.3-5.4 usually)

 

[Yooper]

The sulfate and chloride are a bit higher than I'd use for a blond. I would use no more than 50 ppm of sulfate (ideally much less), and the chloride to be 50-70 or so.

I generally only use gypsum and/or calcium chloride and phosphoric or lactic acid in 90% of my recipes with the RO water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Brewing with 100% RO water for many years I always keep baking soda handy for increasing sodium and pH if needed. I also use 88% lactic acid for lowering pH and alkalinity. Gypsum and Epsom Salt are great for increasing sulfate, calcium and magnesium while lowering pH. Calcium chloride lowers pH while increasing chloride and calcium levels. All are easy to find at your LHBS or online.

 

[rodwha]

The sulfate and chloride are a bit higher than I'd use for a blond. I would use no more than 50 ppm of sulfate (ideally much less), and the chloride to be 50-70 or so.

I generally only use gypsum and/or calcium chloride and phosphoric or lactic acid in 90% of my recipes with the RO water.

What is it about these being above those levels that aren’t ideal for this beer? As is I didn’t like the Ca being as low as it is using just RO water.

In the past l, using 30% RO, my Cl was 82 and SO was 99 for everything. But I did sometimes have odd flavor (sort of like a dried fruit - oxidation?) with darker beers every so often. The rest seemed pretty good with many, including this blonde, better than the average beer on the shelf.

I’ve just been running off of the info online from How To Brew.

The mild is bubbling away (and modified a little) but the blonde will be brewed next Thu.

 

[rodwha]

Brewing with 100% RO water for many years I always keep baking soda handy for increasing sodium and pH if needed. I also use 88% lactic acid for lowering pH and alkalinity. Gypsum and Epsom Salt are great for increasing sulfate, calcium and magnesium while lowering pH. Calcium chloride lowers pH while increasing chloride and calcium levels. All are easy to find at your LHBS or online.

I have gypsum, calcium chloride, canning salt, baking soda, epsom salt, and pH Down on hand.

 

[Sunstar]

I use RODI - I've just used it raw, but I am still a rookie - I started with wine making, and the results seem quite nice. Beer is different?

 

[Yooper]

What is it about these being above those levels that aren’t ideal for this beer? As is I didn’t like the Ca being as low as it is using just RO water.

In the past l, using 30% RO, my Cl was 82 and SO was 99 for everything. But I did sometimes have odd flavor (sort of like a dried fruit - oxidation?) with darker beers every so often. The rest seemed pretty good with many, including this blonde, better than the average beer on the shelf.

I’ve just been running off of the info online from How To Brew.

The mild is bubbling away (and modified a little) but the blonde will be brewed next Thu.

The mineralization of the sulfate and chloride means a "mineral" finish, especially in lighter beers. For beers with noble hops, the correct amount of sulfate may be 0 or just above, due to the harshness and dryness sulfate brings. Chloride brings a roundness or fullness of flavor to the beer, but less than 100 ppm in almost all cases (NE IPA), and even lower for most cases.

Why is the calcium low a problem for you? If it's because beer clears better with 50 ppm of calcium, I get that so I'd say that'd be great to get the water to 50 ppm of Ca, but I don't understand the goal of raising it and then having the chloride and sulfate too high. Use calcium chloride to get the chloride to 50 ppm, then maybe just enough gypsum to get you to 50 ppm of calcium, if the calcium chloride isn't bringing it up enough?

I use RODI - I've just used it raw, but I am still a rookie - I started with wine making, and the results seem quite nice. Beer is different?

A little. Mash pH is important, and you get there with grains and proper water. For additions, think of those salts as "seasonings" in beer.

 

[rodwha]

The mineralization of the sulfate and chloride means a "mineral" finish, especially in lighter beers. For beers with noble hops, the correct amount of sulfate may be 0 or just above, due to the harshness and dryness sulfate brings. Chloride brings a roundness or fullness of flavor to the beer, but less than 100 ppm in almost all cases (NE IPA), and even lower for most cases.

Why is the calcium low a problem for you? If it's because beer clears better with 50 ppm of calcium, I get that so I'd say that'd be great to get the water to 50 ppm of Ca, but I don't understand the goal of raising it and then having the chloride and sulfate too high. Use calcium chloride to get the chloride to 50 ppm, then maybe just enough gypsum to get you to 50 ppm of calcium, if the calcium chloride isn't bringing it up enough?



A little. Mash pH is important, and you get there with grains and proper water. For additions, think of those salts as "seasonings" in beer.

I’ve always shot for a higher Ca as the range according to HTB is 50-150 and so I typically shoot for somewhere in the middle on each of those parameters, though trying not to overstep the Cl/SO ratio.

According to HTB he also mentions a range of 50-150 is good for standard beers. I’ll see about dropping that closer to 50 as well as the Cl.

Now that the Mrs has left I can snatch the computer and play with the salt additions some more and see what happens.

Thanks for the help!

 

[rodwha]

According to HTB Palmer mention Magnesium being an important yeast nutrient and his range goes from 10-30. I wrote next to it a range of 5-30 that I apparently got elsewhere. RO water being devoid of anything I’d need a little epsom salt.

I noticed salt itself hasn’t been addressed, and Palmer does show a range starting with 0. But isn’t a little salt a good thing? He says a range of 70-150 rounds out the flavor of beer, which sounds good.

This is what I’ve done so far:

2 g gypsum, 1.3 g epsom, .6 g salt, 3 g cal chl, and 27.5 ml of 25% phos acid (I use a medicinal measuring cup with 2.5 ml increments). This now gives me:

Ca 50, Mg 5, Na 9, Cl 71, SO 64 and pH of 5.43

I’m finding it hard to drop the SO closer to 50 without messing with the salt and epsom salt. It seems I would want them in the water. No?

 

[allanmorgan]

Is there a place to convert this:

Ca: 84
Mg: 26
Na 9
SO4 45
Cl 62
HCO3 228

To grams and what it is that I need to add? I've tried Brun' Water, but it doesn't work for me. Quick convert is what I'm looking for.

Edit: I use RO water, if that helps.

 

[rodwha]

Those are ppm. Those aren’t something you convert. Those are figures to show the levels in the water. You’d need to work with the various salts to achieve those numbers.

Brewer’s Friend has an easy free water calculator (tools, calculators, water chemistry advanced)

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

 

[Yooper]

According to HTB Palmer mention Magnesium being an important yeast nutrient and his range goes from 10-30. I wrote next to it a range of 5-30 that I apparently got elsewhere. RO water being devoid of anything I’d need a little epsom salt.

I noticed salt itself hasn’t been addressed, and Palmer does show a range starting with 0. But isn’t a little salt a good thing? He says a range of 70-150 rounds out the flavor of beer, which sounds good.

This is what I’ve done so far:

2 g gypsum, 1.3 g epsom, .6 g salt, 3 g cal chl, and 27.5 ml of 25% phos acid (I use a medicinal measuring cup with 2.5 ml increments). This now gives me:

Ca 50, Mg 5, Na 9, Cl 71, SO 64 and pH of 5.43

I’m finding it hard to drop the SO closer to 50 without messing with the salt and epsom salt. It seems I would want them in the water. No?

Malt has more than enough magnesium, and so you never “need” to add some, but if you do add some up to 30 ppm, you can get a dry “sour” effect from it so some people will go over 25-26 ppm for that effect. The ideal amount for a blonde or lager or cream ale is much closer to 0 than the high end.

I’d delete the epsom totally as well as the canning salt, and go with more calcium chloride to get your chloride to 50-60 ppm or so and calcium to 50 ppm or so, and a mash pH of 5.4 by acid. That would actually be preferable to the higher chloride and sulfite level you have there.

 

[Yooper]

Those are ppm. Those aren’t something you convert. Those are figures to show the levels in the water. You’d need to work with the various salts to achieve those numbers.

Brewer’s Friend has an easy free water calculator (tools, calculators, water chemistry advanced)

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

I noticed that you linked to Brewer’s Friend there. Have you seen this “basic water chemistry for brewers” series of articles on the blog? https://www.brewersfriend.com/2018/02/13/brewing-water-basics-putting-it-all-together/ That’s actually part 3, the last in the series, but it is a synopsis of all of the articles. If you want more basic information, scroll all the way to the first article, which is the last one in the list since it is in date order of when it is published. It really should help with the “whys” and what every thing does in the water to make it fit a certain style.

 

[rodwha]

I noticed that you linked to Brewer’s Friend there. Have you seen this “basic water chemistry for brewers” series of articles on the blog? https://www.brewersfriend.com/2018/02/13/brewing-water-basics-putting-it-all-together/ That’s actually part 3, the last in the series, but it is a synopsis of all of the articles. If you want more basic information, scroll all the way to the first article, which is the last one in the list since it is in date order of when it is published. It really should help with the “whys” and what every thing does in the water to make it fit a certain style.

I did not but will. Thanks for pointing that out!

Why take out the salt?

 

[rodwha]

I noticed that you linked to Brewer’s Friend there. Have you seen this “basic water chemistry for brewers” series of articles on the blog? https://www.brewersfriend.com/2018/02/13/brewing-water-basics-putting-it-all-together/ That’s actually part 3, the last in the series, but it is a synopsis of all of the articles. If you want more basic information, scroll all the way to the first article, which is the last one in the list since it is in date order of when it is published. It really should help with the “whys” and what every thing does in the water to make it fit a certain style.

Reading the blog you linked I see that it says never to use baking soda in the sparge. I did. I’ve always treated all 6.75 gals of brewing water and using a portion for the mash and the remainder for the sparge. I used 2.5 g of baking soda. What should I expect?

Quite frankly heating two pots to keep it all seperate just isn’t going to work.

 

[Yooper]

Reading the blog you linked I see that it says never to use baking soda in the sparge. I did. I’ve always treated all 6.75 gals of brewing water and using a portion for the mash and the remainder for the sparge. I used 2.5 g of baking soda. What should I expect?

Quite frankly heating two pots to keep it all seperate just isn’t going to work.

You don’t need two pots- if you need baking soda (which is very rare, but could happen in a stout), just add it to the mash when you dough in.

Alkalinity in the sparge water can extract tannins. You want 0 alkalinity in your sparge water, but maybe 2.5 grams won’t mean much.

 

[Sunstar]

I will keep it in mind about the "seasonings" I won't touch mash yet - I want to get a feel for it with the kits and then read more about the subject until I grasp the concepts.

 

[day_trippr]

I Googles this and found it’s highest operating temp to be 122*. I’m guessing you have to cool down your mash sample to check it?

Of course, but you'd do that anyway as the target pH is valid at room temperature, not mash temperature.

Is there any real difference between the standard model and the Pro+? It seems that instead of being +/- 0.1 but +/- 0.02 pH is the only real difference.

I honestly didn't even know there was a "standard model"...

Cheers!

 

[rodwha]

Of course, but you'd do that anyway as the target pH is valid at room temperature, not mash temperature.

Reading a bit more I realized this. Never gave much attention to this as it wasn’t something I could do and didn’t plan on. Figured the calculator got me fairly close and shooting for in the middle helped keep me well within the ballpark.

I still have a few holes in my understanding of the nitty gritty concerning the mash and the water chemistry.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I adjust the pH of my mash water according to the mix of grain types in the recipe. For sparging I just use 100% RO water. The mash at this point has enough alkalinity to buffer what little pH difference the sparge might add.

 

[rodwha]

I’m guessing that I will try just adjusting the mash water tomorrow and leave the sparge water as just plain RO water. I’ve never done this as I’ve figured my periodic sparges were just short mashes lasting about 10 mins before it is drained, filled again and stirred (3 times).