10% phosphoric acid, who else uses it?

[joenearboston]

When I mash, I want to get my pH down to 5.2 using my calibrated meter. I find going below 5.4 makes the beer even more amazing.

But I find myself having to add up to 30ml of 10% phosphoric acid for a basic APA grain bill using RO water. Does that seem off or unusual? My brewing calculator (EZ Water) only does lactic acid.

I should also mention that I can't stand the twang of lactic acid - want to avoid that stuff altogether, even if only 2ml.

Here is my water and grain bill:

4 gallons of distilled water + 1/4 tsp cacl + 1/2 tsp gypsum
10 lbs Pilsner
1 lbs 60L

 

[Yooper]

When I mash, I want to get my pH down to 5.2 using my calibrated meter. I find going below 5.4 makes the beer even more amazing.

But I find myself having to add up to 30ml of 10% phosphoric acid for a basic APA grain bill using RO water. Does that seem off or unusual? My brewing calculator (EZ Water) only does lactic acid.

I should also mention that I can't stand the twang of lactic acid - want to avoid that stuff altogether, even if only 2ml.

Here is my water and grain bill:

4 gallons of distilled water + 1/4 tsp cacl + 1/2 tsp gypsum
10 lbs Pilsner
1 lbs 60L

I don't go as low as 5.2 usually, at least not on purpose!, but 30 ml of 10% phosphoric acid isn't much.

Instead of EZ water, try bru'nwater- it has several options for acid additions for both the mash and the sparge water. That's what I use.

I also have a little chart on my brewery wall that really helps!

I found it here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control at the very bottom. Scroll down, and it's super helpful! It's how much certain acids drop the mash pH by .1. There is also a chart for raising the pH by .1. I printed that out, and have it right near my acids.

 

[mabrungard]

Remember that at 10%, that acid is very dilute. Sure your volume is high, but you're just adding a bunch of water and only a bit of acid. Don't worry about the volume you are adding as long as you are reaching your pH goal.

As with Yooper, I suggest that most beer styles don't need a mashing pH below 5.4. However, if that is the character you prefer in your beers, then 5.2 is still OK.

 

[joenearboston]

Cool - thanks

 

[gifty74]

Bringing this one back from the dead, so hopefully those on the original thread still reply. I'm looking at the chart that Yooper referenced at the bottom of braukaiser.com, and for my recent 26lb grain bill for 10 gal of a light SRM Saison I'm using 10% phosphoric acid. After dough in my measured pH was 5.8 (with my meter). So if I want to lower it to 5.4 I would take the estimated 2.25ml per pound of grain, or 58.5ml of 10% phosphoric acid times 4 (.4 points I want to lower) to get it to 5.4?? So that's 234ml to lower it .4 pH points, which works out to 16 tablespoons? Seems like an awful lot. This was for a batch I brewed last week so I didn't see this page until now, but I added about 2 Tbsp and it only dropped the pH .1. I then hit it with another 2 Tbsp and didn't want to go overboard. However, this seems excessive? Please comment.

 

[SnowRaven]

10% phosphoric acid times 4 (.4 points I want to lower) to get it to 5.4?? So that's 234ml to lower it .4 pH points, which works out to 16 tablespoons? Seems like an awful lot. This was for a batch I brewed last week so I didn't see this page until now, but I added about 2 Tbsp and it only dropped the pH .1. I then hit it with another 2 Tbsp and didn't want to go overboard. However, this seems excessive? Please comment.

pH is logarithmic

 

[SnowRaven]

-

 

[Finlandbrews]

I find "mash pH " discussion very confusing because I can't understand the concept and I would like to get clarifications as why we don't talk about "water profile/pH for mash pH". In fact, in my understanding we would like to keep a certain pH - the range where alpha and beta enzymes work best which is around 5.2 to 5.4- during the whole mashing time, let's say 60 minutes. This means to me that at dough in we should be in that range and have a water profile which will block the grainbill from bringing the mash pH too low which means we should treat the water and not the mash. Right?

However I don't know if it is possible to build a water profile which stay stable after putting the grains in your mash Tun.

My logic here is: why do we talk about treating mash with phosphoric acid to get to the range of 5.2-5.4 because it will take a certain time after dough in for the mash to stabilize to a certain pH where you can then calculate your acids addition on. If your water pH is 8 and it takes 30 minutes (I actually do not know the speed at which grains can acidify mash to the enzyme range), this pH of 8 is not good for the enzymes and you are shortening the time under which enzymes can operate for best extraction and flavors.

My questions related to my misunderstanding are therefore:

1) what pH do we want at dough in
2) what pH do we want to see/have after full conversion of starches
3) could mash time be shorter if we wouldn't allow a time for grains to naturally acidify the mash
4) we always talk about mash pH but we never say for what period of time mash pH should be held, if mashing time is based on mash pH being at 5.2-5.4 and if enzymes are affected at a non suitable pH?
5) what if I would mash for 1 hour and the mash pH would be at 6.00 with 15% starch conversion left and I know the final mash pH will not be in 5.2-5.4 range then based on that pH I decide to put the phosphoric 10% addition and continue mashing untill my mash pH is 5.3 for example?

We seem never to mention mash pH has to be in place at what point in time during mashing and that is what is confusing me...

 

[camiller]

The composition of the grist can effect the pH of the mash, sometimes by a great deal. Generally you would check the pH just after dough in and then adjust with either acid, or acidulated malt/saurmalt.

I find "mash pH " discussion very confusing because I can't understand the concept and I would like to get clarifications as why we don't talk about "water profile/pH for mash pH". In fact, in my understanding we would like to keep a certain pH - the range where alpha and beta enzymes work best which is around 5.2 to 5.4- during the whole mashing time, let's say 60 minutes. This means to me that at dough in we should be in that range and have a water profile which will block the grist from bringing the mash pH which means we should treat the water and not the mash. Right?

However I don't know if it is possible to build a water profile which stay stable after putting the grains in your mash Tun.

My logic here is: why do we talk about treating mash with phosphoric acid to get to the range of 5.2-5.4 because it will take a certain time after dough in for the mash to stabilize to a certain pH where you can then calculate your acids addition on. If your water pH is 8 and it takes 30 minutes (I actually do not know the speed at which grains can acidify mash to the enzyme range), this pH of 8 is not good for the enzymes and you are shortening the time under which enzymes can operate for best extraction and flavors.

My questions related to my misunderstanding are therefore:

1) what pH do we want at dough in
2) what pH do we want to see/have after full conversion of starches
3) could mash time be shorter if we wouldn't allow a time for grains to naturally acidify the mash
4) we always talk about mash pH but we never say for what period of time mash pH should be held, if mashing time is based on mash pH being at 5.2-5.4 and if enzymes are affected at a non suitable pH?
5) what if I would mash for 1 hour and the mash pH would be at 6.00 with 15% starch conversion left and I know the final mash pH will not be in 5.2-5.4 range then based on that pH I decide to put the phosphoric 10% addition and continue mashing untill my mash pH is 5.3 for example?

We seem never to mention mash pH has to be in place at what point in time during mashing and that is what is confusing me...