10 Extract Batches In - Still Average beer

[GrowlerMonkey]

So I've brewed about 10 batches over the last 2 years and while I can say my beer has improved, it is still nowhere near where I would like it to be. I've done quite a bit of research over the years which has led to my garage now being occupied by three - 7cubic foot temperature controlled freezers (one keezer, one fermentation chamber, one cellar) much to my wifes dismay.

I've read John Palmers "How to Brew" and "Ten tips to Better Extract brewing" thread which really helped in setting up my home brewery (Yeast Starters, temperature controlled fermentation, etc...) but I'm still just not getting those great beers that I had envisioned I would be.

A few recent Examples:

Brewed the NB Carribou Slobber Extract kit. Initially(for at least 6 weeks) it had an alcoholic bite to it, almost like I had added vodka. Now after four months in the keg it is much better, the alcohol is gone, but still a little more fruity than the commercial equivalent - moose drool. For this beer I pitched an appropriate stir plate starter, fermented at 65 and raised to 67-68 slowly after a couple days.

Most recently brewed NB Dead Ringer IPA. After 3 weeks priming at room temp and (10 days with dry hops) now in the keezer it is decent. It seems a little sweet and not at ton of bitterness or aroma. I'm considering adding another oz of centenial to just leave in the keg.

I should also note that I don't think I'm ready to get into all grain, I have two toddlers at home and have a hard enough time finding 4 hours to brew an extract batch.

I like the idea of getting my process completely dialed for extract and making great extract brews until I have more time in my life for all grain. Plus when I do it, I want to do it right and set up an electric brewery like Kal's.

Any input is greatly appreciated, I'd really like to improve my IPAs and I think I've done most of the extract "process" tricks out there. Maybe add a little Gypsum to my RO water?

Regards

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Have you played around with late or flameout extract additions? I found that adding most, or even sometimes all of the extract late (10-15 min mark) or at knockout greatly improved my extract beers. Both in fermentability and in flavor.

 

[GrowlerMonkey]

Yes, I've been doing roughly half at 60min and the other half at 15min. I had been scared off from the whole adding at knockout thing, from people stating it needed to be sanitized. But I might give that a go. It might be difficult to get the LME sufficiently mixed at knockout as I also add my chiller at 15min and it would be in the way.

Doing an all late addition sounds interesting too, but has always seemed weird to me because you would just be boiling hops by themselves, right?

Thanks for your help. I've been leaning towards more LME later in the boil so it's good to hear it has helped with your brews.

Cheers!

 

[Malty_Dog]

Hey just a question on that Caribou Slobber - did you use Wyeast 1332 (Northwest ale)? That actually has a fruity quality to it. I used it and I love my CS. I did an extract kit also, but a nearly full boil. For some reason I think the full volume boil (or as close as you can come) helps smooth out the flavor. JMHO.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

No worries about sanitation with the knockout add, let it sit near boiling for the time it takes to mix it all in and it will be sufficiently sterilized/pasteurized. As for the chiller being in the way, I leave mine in a bucket of starsan until I'm ready to chill. Keeps it outta the way and it's fully sanitized and cold when it goes in. As for the boiling hops by themselves, or in steeping grain "tea" alone, I have not seen or had any adverse effects from doing it. Maybe an increase in hops utilization, but nothing over the top. Think of it this way, on the scale we brew (5-10 gals), hops utilization is likely under 30%, even in a lower gravity (i.e. no or little extract in boil), on that scale utilization may be twice that much, give or take. In a large brewhouse (talking commercial scale, multiple bbls) the hops utilization jumps to over 100% (yes), likely ~125%+ in many craft breweries. Point? On the scale that we're brewing, you're not likely to over do the hopping even in a low (no?) gravity boil. if you try this and you find some beers are coming out too hoppy, simply backing off the hop additions slightly will help. You'll likely find that the hops are more on par with what you expect rather than dull or underwhelming as they can be in many extract recipes.

 

[brew_ny]

had been scared off from the whole adding at knockout thing, from people stating it needed to be sanitized.

it has to be at 160 for a few minutes to sanitize I thought

I just kegged a 11 gallon batch that had 3 lbs DME at the start of a 60 minute boil with 12 lbs DME and 2 lbs of corn sugar at flame out

beer tasted good so it appears to have worked

all the best

S_M

 

[GrowlerMonkey]

Yes Malty Dog I used the Wyeast 1332. So maybe you're on to something there.

I was thinking that the fruitiness came from my fermentation temps being higher than I thought they were (I strap the temp prob to the better bottle with some bubble wrap so I wasn't sure if I was getting an accurate reading of the internal temp or not) but maybe now I don't have to worry about that.

I also like the CS now, it just took a full four months for it to get there. I'm guessing other people's attempts didn't take so long to condition. I also do full boils.

 

[JDGator]

i started out doing extract beers (15ish batches) and the first 3-4 were brutal.

watching my fermentation temperature was the most important thing in making my beers better tasting. one thing you could try if you suspect your yeast to be adding fruity flavors is use a US-05. imparts nearly no flavor if fermented in the mid 60's. I use it to get a feel for different malts and hops.

I would also add most of your extract almost at flameout. This seems to be something that everyone recommends.

 

[GrowlerMonkey]

Thanks Everybody.

I'm definitely going to try adding most if not all of my extract towards the end.

Would you also reccomend this for a darker beer? I'm going to be brewing the NB Belgian Dubbel next weeked, if so, that will be my first attempt with the late addition.

You guys ROCK! :rockin:

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

Hate to say it because i know ive had some good extract brews from other homebrewers but theres always that....twang...

After i switched to AG i left that flavor in the dust. This might be whats bothering you about your beers.
Also see that you say it takes you 4hours for an extract brew??? It takes me 3.5-4 hours for AG so mayb you should look into it, plus its much cheaper if you have the space to buy bulk.

Cheers!

EDIT: After reading you do everything right for fermentation (piching rates, ferm temp, and length of fermentation)
You may want to start looking at your water profile.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Would you also reccomend this for a darker beer?

Definitely. Especially if the recipe is calling for a darker extract.

 

[GrowlerMonkey]

Hate to say it because i know ive had some good extract brews from other homebrewers but theres always that....twang...

After i switched to AG i left that flavor in the dust. This might be whats bothering you about your beers.
Also see that you say it takes you 4hours for an extract brew??? It takes me 3.5-4 hours for AG so mayb you should look into it, plus its much cheaper if you have the space to buy bulk.

Cheers!

EDIT: After reading you do everything right for fermentation (piching rates, ferm temp, and length of fermentation)
You may want to start looking at your water profile.

I've heard a lot on both sides of the whole "twang" thing and had been convinced that fresh ingredients, good sanitation, and good process would fix that. Maybe it's not the case, because I do get some twang in my batches.

I was including cleanup in my 4 hours so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I have a freind who just recently started AG and he said it added a solid two hours to his brew day from start to finish. If you can get it done in 4 I'd be interested in hearing your process.

 

[MaxStout]

Based on your first 2 paragraphs, it looks like you have temp control down pat. As for the Caribou Slobber tasting harsh for a while, some beers just need some more time to condition and mellow out. I've had a few that just didn't taste right until I had it in the bottles for 2 months or more. The sweetness of you IPA might be due to low attenuation. What yeast did you use, and did you use a good starter of it?

Another thing...maybe you have taste buds that are really sensitive to certain off-flavors. What do other people think of your beers? For example, I can detect diacetyl at really low levels, where others do not notice it.

Don't give up on extract brews. People make really tasty beers with it all the time, and some even win awards.

 

[grem135]

I have a couple of questions for you. How long do you leave it in primary (did i miss it in op?) And do you use tap water?
For my brews using campden to remove the chlorimine that my water co uses helped a lot. The next batch i did late extract addition (1 lbs of dme at 60 and 6lbs at 15 minutes) and it turned out great. Now i use 1 to 2 lbs extract at 60 and the rest at flame out on all my brews. I also treat ALL water with campden including my yeast starter water. YMMV

 

[GrowlerMonkey]

Based on your first 2 paragraphs, it looks like you have temp control down pat. As for the Caribou Slobber tasting harsh for a while, some beers just need some more time to condition and mellow out. I've had a few that just didn't taste right until I had it in the bottles for 2 months or more. The sweetness of you IPA might be due to low attenuation. What yeast did you use, and did you use a good starter of it?

Another thing...maybe you have taste buds that are really sensitive to certain off-flavors. What do other people think of your beers? For example, I can detect diacetyl at really low levels, where others do not notice it.

Don't give up on extract brews. People make really tasty beers with it all the time, and some even win awards.

I used Wyeast 1056 and it attenuated down to 1.012.

The people tasting my beers are typically friends and family, so I'm not sure I get the most honest critiques from them. As for my pallet, I don't think it's all that sharp. So I've been thinking about trying to find a local homebrew club to get some objective feedback.

 

[JDGator]

I used Wyeast 1056 and it attenuated down to 1.012.

The people tasting my beers are typically friends and family, so I'm not sure I get the most honest critiques from them. As for my pallet, I don't think it's all that sharp. So I've been thinking about trying to find a local homebrew club to get some objective feedback.

when i want an honest review i ask them if they would buy it. you can tell then if they are telling the truth.

 

[GrowlerMonkey]

I have a couple of questions for you. How long do you leave it in primary (did i miss it in op?) And do you use tap water?
For my brews using campden to remove the chlorimine that my water co uses helped a lot. The next batch i did late extract addition (1 lbs of dme at 60 and 6lbs at 15 minutes) and it turned out great. Now i use 1 to 2 lbs extract at 60 and the rest at flame out on all my brews. I also treat ALL water with campden including my yeast starter water. YMMV

I typically do a 3 week primary on most beers. For a belgian dubbel and apfelwein this weekend I plan to do 6 weeks for both. I know I should probably take readings to make sure but I just take a reading as I'm racking and they have always been on point.

I use R/O for both my starter and boil kettle water so I think the chlorimine should be gone, but I'm not certain. Should I be using campden with R/O water?

Thanks for your help.

 

[rpe290]

I typically do a 3 week primary on most beers. For a belgian dubbel and apfelwein this weekend I plan to do 6 weeks for both. I know I should probably take readings to make sure but I just take a reading as I'm racking and they have always been on point.

I use R/O for both my starter and boil kettle water so I think the chlorimine should be gone, but I'm not certain. Should I be using campden with R/O water?

Thanks for your help.

I typically find my primary fermentations done at 4-10 days, my dubbel took 7-8, I think. I also ramp up the temp at the end to eat any off flavors and make sure attenuation is full. That's a pretty good attenuation # on a amber/brown ale, so that part's good! I doubt 3 weeks is starting autolysis...but I guess its worth a shot.

I guess you do have certain commercial beers that you consider "good" as a benchmark? Have you ever sent something to a competition--its great feedback, too.

Are you sticking the temp probe directly to the fermenter when controlling temps? (or checking "air"?)

I think RO water and extract is supposed to be a good combo, no campden needed.

Are you kegging, and using gelatin or something else to clear the yeast?

Hope something helps there.

 

[GrowlerMonkey]

I typically find my primary fermentations done at 4-10 days, my dubbel took 7-8, I think. I also ramp up the temp at the end to eat any off flavors and make sure attenuation is full. That's a pretty good attenuation # on a amber/brown ale, so that part's good! I doubt 3 weeks is starting autolysis...but I guess its worth a shot.

I guess you do have certain commercial beers that you consider "good" as a benchmark? Have you ever sent something to a competition--its great feedback, too.

Are you sticking the temp probe directly to the fermenter when controlling temps? (or checking "air"?)

I think RO water and extract is supposed to be a good combo, no campden needed.

Are you kegging, and using gelatin or something else to clear the yeast?

Hope something helps there.

I think I will try sending something into a competition. Just need to research how to do that. Do they give comments or just a score?

For the temp probe I strap it to the better bottle with some bubblewrap and neoprene from an old wetsuit in hopes of insulating it from the ambient temp and reading the actual internal temp. I heard Jamil on an episode of brew strong say that this would give you an acurate internal reading, but when I continue to get that bit of twang in my beers I second guess the accuracy.

I keg most brews and used gelatin for the first time on my dead ringer IPA. I was happy with the results of the gelatin. The beer is clear which my previous IPAs were not, and the beer tastes a bit cleaner (could just be in my head). Only problem with that one is the sweetness and sublte hop bitterness and aroma.

 

[rpe290]

I think I will try sending something into a competition. Just need to research how to do that. Do they give comments or just a score?

For the temp probe I strap it to the better bottle with some bubblewrap and neoprene from an old wetsuit in hopes of insulating it from the ambient temp and reading the actual internal temp. I heard Jamil on an episode of brew strong say that this would give you an acurate internal reading, but when I continue to get that bit of twang in my beers I second guess the accuracy.

I keg most brews and used gelatin for the first time on my dead ringer IPA. I was happy with the results of the gelatin. The beer is clear which my previous IPAs were not, and the beer tastes a bit cleaner (could just be in my head). Only problem with that one is the sweetness and sublte hop bitterness and aroma.

IMO you are fine on the temp method, I wouldn't think that is the problem at all.

You will get very useful comments back, click the links here to see what they look like: http://www.bjcp.org/examscores.php
Search this forum for shipping tips...

I can't comment on gelatin and IPAs, as I have only used it on non-hoppy beers, it may have dropped out a bit of the bitterness and hop flavor/aroma--I could be wrong, its just something I read before...

Last thing I haven't seen, are you using the freshest extract you can reasonably get? Dry or liquid? Maybe that could be something...

 

[k_mcarthur]

My beers went from good to great when I evolved from extract to all grain. Maybe not for everyone, or even feasible for some, but there are some flavors and depths I'm convinced you can't get from malts that have been stored for months. As homohabillous discovered his opposable thumb, we as brewers must evolve also. Come on over to the dark side, we have cookies!

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

I've heard a lot on both sides of the whole "twang" thing and had been convinced that fresh ingredients, good sanitation, and good process would fix that. Maybe it's not the case, because I do get some twang in my batches.

I was including cleanup in my 4 hours so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I have a freind who just recently started AG and he said it added a solid two hours to his brew day from start to finish. If you can get it done in 4 I'd be interested in hearing your process.

I get to around 4 hours with cleanup. I also dont whirlpool/steep.

Weight and crush grains night before (not included) ~15min

Heat strike water ~15min
1 gal hot tap water in MT for preheating while heating strike.^^
Dough in, stabilize, 1 hour mash. ~65-70min
Heat sparge water 45min into mash ^^
Sparge grains, Start boiling first runnings, runoff second runnings (no rest, my manifold drains well without a set grainbed) ~10min
Takes ~10min to get up to boil.
Boil, hop additions, chiller, sanitize FV ~60min
Clean mashtun/buckets used for water/grain during boil.^^
Chill to 65 ~15min summer ~10min summer
Whirlpool for side pickup, move to counter and let sit for hot break/trub drop ~20min
While your crashing the wort clean/put away everything else^^
Rack to FV, pitch yeast, clean BK, put away BK ~20min

So on a good day i could get it around 3.5hours if not close to 4 in the summer.

Hope this helps and pushes you closer to AG! You'll never look back!
Cheers!

EDIT: I should also mention i have an outdoor bayou burner(turkey fryer) and immersion chiller, these are CRUTIAL in cutting time off your brewday, and only about 100$ for both...VERY well worth it for the time i save!