1/4" beer line with oxebar keg in regular fridge - Length/foam issues

[Matheos]

Someone may know, but I want to say there's a chance that your regulator could bleed pressure? Depending on where it is. It could be that you actually won't see over 10psi or so if the regulator is releasing it.

Do you have another picture of the setup? Or if you're familiar enough with everything then I'll just suggest to be sure the gauge is indeed reading the keg pressure and that's all, that there's not more tubing leading to a regulator that -might- (or might not) be bleeding some off.

Just a thought. not 100% sure about this.

Here are pictures https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ridge-length-foam-issues.731759/post-10356663
(or scroll up). As you see the regulator is mounted right on the sodastream "tank" from which the short line goes to gas in post on the keg. I am no expert on how regulators work, so I cannot speak for if it releases excess pressure from the keg itself or if it just keeps more pressure from coming from the tank to the keg, depending on the regulator setting. As for now, I have the pressure completely cut off from the tank. It is still mounted on the tank but there is no way there is coming anything from it as of now. There is a separate "release pin" that needs to be screwed down for the pressure to come out of the bottle, even this have I wound all the way up.

I think this is probably your biggest problem. 30 psi on one gallon of beer for that long is probably severely over-carbonated. Try bleeding off the keg pressure as others have mentioned then try to pour another glass after a few days. Be sure everything is inside your kegerator and cold and depress the picnic tap all the way on to pour. You might blow through your whole keg before you get everything dialed in this time. I’m a big believer in the set and forget method of carbonation… it’s quite foolproof

Yes it does sound possible. As mentioned above I currently am not pressurizing at all and trying to figure out whether the gauge will give me another reading, a "how pressurized is the keg actually" - reading when the gas is completely off. Everything is in the fridge together.
I am not too bothered about blowing through the keg for this experiment. This is 4L left over beer from a double batch I did together with a friend for a party that his student union is arranging. From my point of view it is free beer and a chance to test my keg for the first time.
I think I will do the set and forget next time though...

 

[mac_1103]

If the beer is overcarbonated it will not improve just by turning off the CO2.

The gauge should be reading the pressure in the keg now, but in my experience those miniregulator gauges aren't the most accurate, especially at low pressures. I would pull the PRV on the tapping head, wait a few hours, and then check the gauge again. CO2 should start coming out of the beer when you release the pressure in the head space. So if the pressure doesn't drop at least a little then there may be something wrong with the gauge.

 

[Matheos]

Yeah no I don't expect this to solve the problem but I wanna see if I see an increase in pressure etc. the pressure definately drops if I pull the PRV, that I have tried. Though I have not tried pulling it and letting it sit and checking if it creeps back up again without any external (new) pressure applied. I will do that next

 

[Matheos]

Soon two days in without any gas ON and my gauge is still at 10psi (which I set it to just before turning everything off).

Going away for a few days on holiday now so we will see when I come back.. Might have to depressure + leave it and repeat if I have got no clearer indication by then..

 

[mashdar]

As day_trippr said above, if there is a check valve between the tank and the regulator (frequently built in to protect regulator), the gauge may not be a good indication of beer pressure if over carbonated.

How much head space is in the keg? After all this testing, at least down past the shoulder, yes?

Re fast carb, the time it takes will be inversely proportional to the gas-liquid interface (exposed liquid) area. It's also proportional(ish) to beer volume. Vessel shape affects carb time a lot. How full the keg is will change carb time, especially if you fill past the shoulder.

Also, Picnic Tap 2.1 was mentioned by mac; This would eliminate the lines completely, but might not fix a wildly over-carbonated beer.

edit: I use Picnic Tap 2.1 and like it, but FYI the pours are a bit slower, if that matters to you.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't know it the Core 360 regulator has a built-in check valve. The description doesn't mention one. It does have a PRV.

 

[Matheos]

Yeah I am unsure too but it does seem like the gauge is not moving at all even with the gas off, so could be?

And regarding headspace, yes definately quite a lot now since I have done my testing. Probably around 1/4 of the keg is gone. And the surface area is probably quite large too as I have to have it laying on its side to fit it in my refredigerator...

I had completely missed the mention of the Picnic Tap 2.1. Seems very nice! Does it mount on these kegland carbonation caps though? May be a stupid question. Are the ball lock fittings perhaps standardized in size?
One drawback of the tap though would be the fact that I would need to take the keg out each time I want to pour. A hose, even 50cm, would be sufficient to just take the tap out of the fridge and let the keg rest untouched.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah I am unsure too but it does seem like the gauge is not moving at all even with the gas off, so could be?

Remove the gas QD from the keg. Pull the regulator PRV. Does the gauge go to zero and stay there?

Does it mount on these kegland carbonation caps though?

Picnic tap 2.1 has it's own liquid QD that you can connect directly to the liquid out post on the the oxebar keg tapping head.

 

[Matheos]

Remove the gas QD from the keg. Pull the regulator PRV. Does the gauge go to zero and stay there?

Picnic tap 2.1 has it's own liquid QD that you can connect directly to the liquid out post on the the oxebar keg tapping head.

Ok thanks. It was the QDs that I was unsure if are compatible. Nice it would work, but as I said, a short line would be optimal with my current fridge setup/restrictions..

I could do as you instruct. I suppose you mean that I reconnect the gas QD to the keg before checking the gauge? As surely it stays at zero when nothing is connected and the gas is off

 

[mac_1103]

It was the QDs that I was unsure if are compatible.

Ball lock QDs are universal. Gas and liquid are different (that's why one is black and the other is white or gray), but the posts on the oxebar tapping head are actually designed to accept either one (even though they also come in different colors they are not functionally different). There are lots of different configurations for the side of the QD that connects to the gas or liquid line, and the picnic tap 2.1 QD is not compatible with anything besides a picnic tap AFAIK.

As surely it stays at zero when nothing is connected and the gas is off

If you already know this then you don't have to repeat the test or do a different one. The idea is to figure out if the gauge is off. You said earlier that the pressure drops when you pull the PRV, but you didn't say whether it dropped all the way to zero and stayed there. You also didn't say if you were holding the PRV open until no more gas escaped or just pulling it for a second or two.

 

[tracer bullet]

If we're at a point where the gauge is reading the keg pressure, you could consider pulling the PRV to completely vent off the pressure in the headspace. Gauge should of course drop to 0. Then give it the time while you're gone for a few days to build it back up (as it comes out of the beer) and see what you end up with. If it's like... 9.5psi or something slightly less then current, I think it's safe at that point to say it's truly where you are at. Time to hook it back up to gas (keeping about 10 or whatever) and see if it "works". If not then at least for troubleshooting, overcarbed can finally be ruled out.

Hopefully it works!!!

 

[starview]

So I recently got myself a 4L oxebar keg as it is the only keg size I can fit in my apartment fridge. With it I got 12m of 1/4" (6.3mm) ID gas/beer line with duotight fittings for that size.

I just tried pouring my first half glass and it is pretty much all foam, of course logically, as I have not really considered the beer line length..

Looking at calculators online they tell me with my ID and the fact that I pretty much have no vertical height difference keg -> tap (picnik tap) I would be looking at almost 8-10m for my beers served at 10psi... That is quite a lot of tubing to fit into a small fridge. Any suggestions on how to solve this without swapping the beer line for a smaller ID? I can get some height difference I guess by keeping the tap higher up while serving, but having bought the line and the connects on aliexpress, I would rather use of the 12m I have than buy new connnects and lines...

As others have said here a smaller beer line. 6 ft of 3/16 line should take care of the problem. The line needs the resistance for the flow to keep from foaming too much.

 

[Matheos]

he picnic tap 2.1 QD is not compatible with anything besides a picnic tap AFAIK

I don't follow here, what do you mean? picnik tap only compatible with picnik tap?

You also didn't say if you were holding the PRV open until no more gas escaped or just pulling it for a second or two.

It dropped all the way to zero when pulling the PRV until nothing more came out (PRV on keg). It really did not require a lengthy pull.

If we're at a point where the gauge is reading the keg pressure, you could consider pulling the PRV to completely vent off the pressure in the headspace. Gauge should of course drop to 0. Then give it the time while you're gone for a few days to build it back up (as it comes out of the beer) and see what you end up with. If it's like... 9.5psi or something slightly less then current, I think it's safe at that point to say it's truly where you are at. Time to hook it back up to gas (keeping about 10 or whatever) and see if it "works". If not then at least for troubleshooting, overcarbed can finally be ruled out.

Hopefully it works!!!

Yes I will do this! I will pull the PRV on the keg and make sure the gauge drops to zero. I will then leave it and see if it goes up while I am away. If it stays at zero I guess that indicates that there is a check valve in place?

 

[fluketamer]

I run very similar PET kegs to the systme you are using.

i have been sodastream kegging for a few years now.

you definately dont need all that line.
as others have said you cant partially open a picnic tap or most taps and expect to improve your pour . most taps are made to be fully opened when pouring. restriction at the tap by partially opening it will definately force the co2 out of your carbed beer. and increase foam much like a stout taps restriction plate.

some dont like the picnic tap 2.1 but it immediatley solved a lot fo foaming problems for me. also serve at lower pressures i serve beer low like 4-5 after its properly carbed. its slow but leads to great pours imo. i also drin out of smaller glasses which is fine if the pour is slow. the nice thing about the 2.1 is i have got good pours at pressures like 12- 15 psi and still no foam. i havent had leak issues like some. my perlick works fine with 9 feet of coild 4mm id eva i hate that it stiff whene very cold but it def gives good pours,

i alos have used a picnic tap on short wide cheap beer line. you can get that to work but its super sensitive. i find 2.5 vol lagers at 34 degrees can pour out of cheap short line without foam but any change in pressure or temp will start to mess with it. my other lines are much more forgiving.

my two cents

 

[mac_1103]

I don't follow here, what do you mean? picnik tap only compatible with picnik tap?

Yes. You can take the QD off of a picnic tap but that QD is modified to accept the picnic tap flow control device and faucet and won't seal properly if you try to attach it to anything else (at least not without modifying it to undo the modifications made by the picnic tap manufacturer).

Standard QD on top, disassembled picnic tap on bottom. The standard QD has an integrated flare washer that seals when attached to a swivel nut. The red washer in the picnic tap won't do that, and a swivel nut won't fit onto that QD unless you remove the spiral flow control device. I suppose you could do that and replace the red washer with a flare washer, but why? It still might not work due to thread length.

 

[mashdar]

I think the duotight version of the picnic tap 2.1 uses a standard 9.3mm duotight QD, FWIW.

 

[Matheos]

some dont like the picnic tap 2.1 but it immediatley solved a lot fo foaming problems for me. also serve at lower pressures i serve beer low like 4-5 after its properly carbed. its slow but leads to great pours imo. i also drin out of smaller glasses which is fine if the pour is slow. the nice thing about the 2.1 is i have got good pours at pressures like 12- 15 psi and still no foam. i havent had leak issues like some. my perlick works fine with 9 feet of coild 4mm id eva i hate that it stiff whene very cold but it def gives good pours,

Thanks a ton for the tip! Your setup does look quite similar too mine, though mine is obviously not in a dedicated fridge and I am more limited to space. But the tips about IDs and picnik taps are golden, thanks!

Yes. You can take the QD off of a picnic tap but that QD is modified to accept the picnic tap flow control device and faucet and won't seal properly if you try to attach it to anything else (at least not without modifying it to undo the modifications made by the picnic tap manufacturer).

Ah I see, I did not realise that there was a specific QD for the picnik tap itself. My biggest concern was the bottom most part, the actual QD connector, would that fit on a Duotight QD? I suppose it would, QD as QD? The ball lock I mean...

On a general note, sorry about being a bit offline from the discussion. I was away on holiday. When I came back home I saw my regulator gauge was sitting at 0 psi meaning that either no additional pressure had been released from the beer in 4-5 days OR the gauge does have a check valve and won't actually show the current pressure in the keg at all, but it will show "what was last output from the tank"? I am again away for a few days atm, though I will be back home tomorrow evening. I did not try the PRV to check if there was actual gas in the keg at all, but at least it seems like the regulator does not indicate the keg pressure.

 

[mashdar]

You order the picnic tap 2.1 with either a 90 degree duotight QD (I believe it's the 9.5mm) or a 45 degree modified flare QD. (The modification removes the flare business end, so only good for the picnic tap 2.1.)

 

[mac_1103]

My biggest concern was the bottom most part, the actual QD connector, would that fit on a Duotight QD?

The thing that you are calling a "Duotight QD" here is actually the liquid out post on your Oxebar keg tapping head. Those plastic posts that thread onto the tapping head are also known as carbonation caps.


The QD is the part that is attached to the tubing or directly to the tap and snaps onto that post, which will accept either a 90 degree Duotight QD or the 45 degree flare QD.

 

[Matheos]

Okay another small overdue update.

I think my biggest issue is probably that it was overcarbonated. As mentioned, the gauge was at 0 when closing the gas and everything for a week, and did not move. A few days ago I pulled the PRV on the keg and a lot of gas came out, so it was definately not actually at 0. I then put it back to 10psi and instantly tried serving some. This time with the same tubing and the shortest patch I had. Sure it foamed some but not too bad, I mean worse than I want it to but better than before. The beer was quite flat though but could be due to overfoaming and also beeing of gas for a week. I left it at 10 now and will let it sit.

I think I will get myself either a picnic 2.1 and mount it right on the keg itself OR 1m 8x4mm eva + duotight ball lock flow control + appropriate connector for my existing tap.

Which one would you guys pick? "
The mother of all taps" or the combo of Kegland connectors and flow control with the "original" picnic tap?

 

[fluketamer]

fwiw i like my picnic 2.1 better than my duotight ball lock flow control. that thing is a PIA.

 

[Matheos]

fwiw i like my picnic 2.1 better than my duotight ball lock flow control. that thing is a PIA.

Thanks for the input! Could you ellaborate on why the duotight is a PIA? Also, did you get the one after the other (as replacement) or do you have different setups, for example if you need a beer line from one keg, I guess the duotight would be the only option almost?

 

[fluketamer]

the flow control sticks sometimes when its open all the way sometimes when its closed. the tolerances are too tight and it gets hard to take on and off. even the tubing has trouble goingin and out of the duotight connection. i dont really feel its giving me flow control. i do find however that once its set right tis ok as long as you dont mess with it. i feel if i switched it out for a regular one without flow control it wouldnt make much differnece.

i got the picnic tap 2.1 after i got the other cause i found it was not giving me the pours i wanted. i know others have had issures. with pinic 2.1 but i have not.. if money is no object it soundlike the nukatap mini would also be good. but that again relies on a duotight flow control ball lock.

btw i just got my 4 liter oxebars and love them

 

[DuncB]

I'd go more beer line than less.
Not a big fan of my flow control ball lock don't think it does the job.
Slow foamy beer in the end is the same as fast foamy beer.

 

[Matheos]

I'd go more beer line than less.
Not a big fan of my flow control ball lock don't think it does the job.
Slow foamy beer in the end is the same as fast foamy beer.

Hmm okay. I am not against beer line, it is just I can't really fit too much of it in our household apt fridge. It is cramped as it is just getting the keg and sodastream gas in there :/

the flow control sticks sometimes when its open all the way sometimes when its closed. the tolerances are too tight and it gets hard to take on and off. even the tubing has trouble goingin and out of the duotight connection. i dont really feel its giving me flow control. i do find however that once its set right tis ok as long as you dont mess with it. i feel if i switched it out for a regular one without flow control it wouldnt make much differnece.

i got the picnic tap 2.1 after i got the other cause i found it was not giving me the pours i wanted. i know others have had issures. with pinic 2.1 but i have not.. if money is no object it soundlike the nukatap mini would also be good. but that again relies on a duotight flow control ball lock.

btw i just got my 4 liter oxebars and love them

Thanks! Yea I am planning to ge another as soon as they drop in local stores And ofc got this flow control issue sorted... Might go for a picnic tap 2.1 then it seems... Only downside is the missing beerline which would be nice as I really am crampped for space in our household apartment fridge..

 

[tracer bullet]

Hmm. If the gauge still read 0 then for some reason it probably wasn't reading. It should have gone up since there was pressure in the keg. You might still look into this and see what it takes to actually read the keg's pressure. At this point in time it's probably still useful information.

I did not like the Picnic Tap 2.1. I sold my first one, kept reading about them, and bought another. Also conversed with the founder a few times. Great guy and company but the product didn't do it. I tried various sizes of the spiral gizmo inside, lengths and if it was more the longer or short spirals, what direction they were in, and so on. Always refrigerated and all the other things cited for success. I came to the conclusion that it just didn't work for all beer but it did indeed work for some. Imperial stout (heavy body) - worked great. Mexican lager or ESB (fermented drier, and light body) = foamy.

I got a Nukatap flow control from Williams, and liked it enough to get 2 more. It can be a slow pour when dialed back, but it can be dialed back to prevent the foam. I like the instant adjustability. That it's all metal and can be fitted with a spring to ensure the tap kicks itself back to prevent leaks is nice too. I mounted them straight to the keg posts which is nice, I now have a ton of EVA Barrier line I'll probably never use. I won't knock the Picnic Tap 2.1 but I no longer use it.

 

[mac_1103]

Here's a Brut IPA I just finished. Poured with the Picnic Tap 2.1 that @tracer bullet sold me.



OK, so maybe that's a little too foamy for some, but this is basically the worst case scenario for the 2.1 - FG 0.997, carbed to 2.8 volumes and served at 15 PSI (which is the top of the recommended range).

So I'm pretty happy with them (I'm also pretty happy with my Nukatap mini with flow control QD), but like I said way upthread, different people have had different experiences so there's no guarantee that it will work for the OP. Anyway, I'll probably be using these less going forward, because I finally broke down and ordered a real kegerator today. And I'm almost finished rehabilitating the old jockey box that I picked up for cheap on Craigslist a while back. So I won't really need them anymore, either at home or on the road.

Sorry for the hijack.

 

[fluketamer]

get the picnic tap 2.1 then you dont need any beer lines. you can put it anywhere . kitchen fridge kegging is a game changer i dont know why more people dont do it.

its the easiest cheapest smallest footprint entry into kegging.

 

[mashdar]

get the picnic tap 2.1 then you dont need any beer lines. you can put it anywhere . kitchen fridge kegging is a game changer i dont know why more people dont do it.

its the easiest cheapest smallest footprint entry into kegging.

Link to example setup? I'm curious what the ideal CO2 situation is. 5lbs tank seems big for kitchen fridge.

edit: forum suggested this
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/possible-pet-oxebar-setup.731792/
So soda stream? I'm not familiar.
Is it 1lb or something?

 

[mac_1103]

So soda stream? I'm not familiar.
Is it 1lb or something?

Close - 410 grams.