Cranberry Kettle Sour Questions

Rob2010SS · Oct 16, 2017

So I want to make a cranberry kettle sour for Thanksgiving. I had a cranberry sour last year and it was delicious so I would like to make one. I plan on using Omega OYL-605 lacto blend for the souring. I do have questions though.

1. I'm not sure what kind of base beer I would want to make for this. Suggestions?

2. I need to make a starter and I don't have a stir plate. Is it acceptable to make a starter in a flask and just occasionally swirl the flask instead of having it on a stir plate?

3. Omega recommends 75*F - 95*F for this blend. I don't have a way to maintain this temp for long periods of time. Is keeping it on the stove top acceptable during the souring phase and fire up the stove occasionally to bring it up a couple of degrees? If I pitch the lacto at 95*F and bring the kettle in the house, which is 70*F, I can't imagine the wort will cool to 75*F very fast....

4. Once the souring is complete and you boil the wort to kill the lacto, can you then hop it or even after lacto is dead, you still CAN'T hop more than 2 IBU's?

5. Any particular yeast strain that would work well with this Omega lacto?

Sorry for all of the questions. New to the sour thing and want to make sure I have my bases covered.

cactusgarrett · Oct 16, 2017

Not a breadth of sour experience here, but I have done straight Berliner Weisse and researched the hell out of it.

2. Are you talking about a starter for your OYL-605 or for the subsequent sacc? I used 605 for a straight Berliner Weisse (kettle souring) and just pitched the pouch. No starter needed and with lacto (at least that strain), and I understand you should avoid oxygen whenever possible. If you're talking about the sacc, do a starter as typical. It's probably MORE important than in a regular non-soured beer as the pH (due to the lactic acid) starts the sacc in a hole from the beginning compared to a typical sweet wort scenario.

3. 605 works VERY well at ambient temps. If you transfer your wort and pitch at 95°F, any attempts over the next day or two should do you well. Ideally, if you could, I suggest a water bath for your kettle and cover with blankets. Over the next couple day, just recharge the water bath with hot water. Again, any attempts to maintain above 70°F will result in good, quick souring.

4. Hop as you like to taste after boiling to kill the lacto. The IBU issue is that lacto doesn't work well in the presence of the hop compounds, but if you've already soured, you're good to hop. The main issue, then, is getting a hop profile to match the sourness.

5. Anything works well, technically, but make sure to find flavor profiles that meld well. Again, make a big sacc starter, as a soured wort is stressing the sacc moreso that in a typical non-soured batch due to the lower pH.

radwizard · Oct 16, 2017

For a base beer I would just do a Gose grain bill.
As mentioned above, you can just pitch at 95 and wrap that baby up in in a blanket (electric blanket would be even better). Your temp will go down but you should be able to stay within those parameters. The main thing is keeping the o2 out. If you use the kettle to sour, cover it up tighting with plastic wrap. Use co2 to purge, if you have the ability. You should also pre acidify your wort to 4.0-4.4 with food grade lactic acid. This and eliminating 02 should discourage unwanted microbes from taking hold of your souring process.

Are you talking about your Sac Yeast or LAB culture in regards to the starter?

Rob2010SS · Oct 16, 2017

I like the idea of the Gose grain bill. From what I was reading, i was either going to do that or a wheat ale grain bill.

The acid in the wort to get it to 4.0-4.4 would be done AFTER the mash, correct? I would transfer the wort to the kettle and then add the acid to get it to that pH?

And no, I was talking about a lacto starter. Omega's website recommends the starter for the lacto, but if I don't have to do that, I'd rather not!

cactusgarrett · Oct 16, 2017

Rob2010SS said:
The acid in the wort to get it to 4.0-4.4 would be done AFTER the mash, correct? I would transfer the wort to the kettle and then add the acid to get it to that pH?

Correct. Without using a pH meter, I read something that a reasonable grainbill would put the amount of 88% lactic acid needed at ~7-15mL per 6gal collection.

I would skip the starter. Diminished returns for how well it works.

radwizard · Oct 16, 2017

I can't really comment on the Omega LAB, I haven't used that. However, If you don't get enough souring from your Omega, you could always run down to the drug store get some Goodbelly probiotic shots, and pitch that. That would be a good back up plan.

When you finish souring, and boiling, you will need a starter for your sac pitch. You should slightly over pitch here. You are gonna be tossing your yeast into a not so happy envirnment.
http://sourbeerblog.com/fast-souring-lactobacillus/

Check out that link. There is a follow-up article on the site as well with a pretty cool flow chart. I think there is some good nuggets for ya in there.
Good luck on your brew

EDF713 · Oct 16, 2017

I just bottled my first sour, so not a lot of experience, but here is what I did that may be similar to what you're thinking. I mashed a recipe of 2.5 lb of 2-row, 2.5 lb of wheat malt, and 4 oz of acidulated malt, and adjusted my water with gypsum and calcium chloride to get a mash ph of 5.3. I brought to a brief boil, and chilled to 90. I emptied 5 capsules of Swanson's lactobacillus plantarum, same bacteria as good belly, to the wort, added some sparking water (poor man's co2 purge) and covered my kettle in a spot in my house that is always 78-80 degrees (easy to do in Houston). After 2 days my ph was down to 3.2, so I boiled, added hops, topped up the water to 5 gallons and fermented with Safale K-97. After primary fermenatation (a few days) I added two 32 oz bottles of the Kroger organic version of Knudsen's tart cherry juice. After two total weeks, I bottled, priming with another bottle of cherry juice.

My bottle sample was spot on, except maybe I want more cherry flavor, but just right on sour/bitter profile. I was worried about diluting the sourness with topoff water, but this was a compromise for managing the size of kettle I was lugging around, and hop utilization wasn't a concern for the low ibus. Turns out I'm happy with the sourness level I got. We'll see once it's carbed up.

Here is a link to the recipe on brewers friend - https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/331358/sour-cherry-bv .

Rob2010SS · Oct 16, 2017

Alright, here's my plan thus far. Looking for thoughts, feedback and suggestions. My goal is a cranberry, dry finish, SOUR SOUR SOUR! The more sour the better.

Stats
OG - 1.056
Est FG - 1.009
Est ABV - 6.08%
IBU - 7.69
SRM - 4.22

Grain Bill
5.77lbs White Wheat (60%)
4.30lbs Pilsner (40%)

Mash
Add water additions for desired profile - CaCl and Gypsum
Mash @ 150 for 60 min
Sparge and Lauter to boil kettle as usual

Kettle Souring
Add required lactic acid to drop wort pH to 4.0-4.4
Cool wort to 95*F and pitch OYL-605
Cover with plastic wrap and lid, make sure temp stays above 65*, per Omega website.
Allow pH to drop to low 3's for desired sour.

Boil
Bring up to boil for 10 min to kill lacto.
Add .50oz Hersbrucker @ 60 min

Post Boil
Chill wort down to 65*F
Add to Carboy
Pitch 1 pack Safale US-05

Primary Fermentation
Approx. 1 week at 62*F

Secondary Fermentation
Using 6lbs of cranberries, boil down to create a puree.
Let it cool to 80*F
Add to secondary fermenter
Rack from primary in to secondary on top of cranberries.
Let sit for 1-2 weeks.

Transfer to Keg.

After thought - I see a lot of people use acid malt. Do I need that or is it unnecessary?

Rob2010SS · Oct 16, 2017

Thanks for the info @radwizard and @EDF713. You guys posted while I was typing up my novel below.

EDF713 · Oct 16, 2017

Acid malt is necessary for me to get my mash ph low enough since my water is super hard, using bru'n water's spreadsheet. If you can get your mash ph in line with gypsum and calcium chloride, you don't need it.

radwizard · Oct 16, 2017

Pretty sure you got it down, but remember to do a short boil after you have mashed out.

Sparge and Lauter and Normally.
Heat wort up (do a short boil) to kill unwanted microbes
Chill wort to 95 per Omega instructions
Begin sour worting phase.

I haven't used 05 on a kettle sour, but I see a lot of ppl have. I would just guess that you may need to pitch a little more since you are going for high acidity. Honestly I would just pitch a pack and a half since it is so cheap. You wouldn't be over pitching.

EDF713 · Oct 16, 2017

radwizard said:
Pretty sure you got it down, but remember to do a short boil after you have mashed out.

Sparge and Lauter and Normally.
Heat wort up (do a short boil) to kill unwanted microbes
Chill wort to 95 per Omega instructions
Begin sour worting phase.

I haven't used 05 on a kettle sour, but I see a lot of ppl have. I would just guess that you may need to pitch a little more since you are going for high acidity. Honestly I would just pitch a pack and a half since it is so cheap. You wouldn't be over pitching.

Meant to say, the recipe looks like it will be delicious, I've thought of a cranberry sour but chose cherries just because I like them better.

I'm curious how do most people account for pitch rates in sour beers? I didn't get nearly the attenuation I expected, even after pitching a pack of K97 that theoretically had double the cell count needed for my low gravity BV. Anyone out there have some advice?

radwizard · Oct 16, 2017

EDF713 said:
Meant to say, the recipe looks like it will be delicious, I've thought of a cranberry sour but chose cherries just because I like them better.

I'm curious how do most people account for pitch rates in sour beers? I didn't get nearly the attenuation I expected, even after pitching a pack of K97 that theoretically had double the cell count needed for my low gravity BV. Anyone out there have some advice?

From MTF:
Brewers who are having difficulty fully fermenting pre-acidified wort can try growing their yeast in the soured wort (pasteurize the soured wort first if needed) with yeast nutrients (Fermaid K + DAP, for example). This assumes that the wort still has a lot of sugar left over after souring (if not, DME can be added).

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Packaging#Acid_Shock_Starters

I have not done an acid shock starter in a Kettle Sour. I have done it in bottle a mixed fermentation. I recently learned about this though, and have been wanting to try it.
I like to use Sacc Trois with my kettle sours, and it is pretty acid tolerant. I have also heard Saison Yeasts (3711 in particular) are tolerant as well.
You gotta be careful when trying to go mega sour on a kettle sour- you still have to ferment it out.

Rob2010SS · Oct 16, 2017

radwizard said:
Pretty sure you got it down, but remember to do a short boil after you have mashed out.

Sparge and Lauter and Normally.
Heat wort up (do a short boil) to kill unwanted microbes
Chill wort to 95 per Omega instructions
Begin sour worting phase.

I haven't used 05 on a kettle sour, but I see a lot of ppl have. I would just guess that you may need to pitch a little more since you are going for high acidity. Honestly I would just pitch a pack and a half since it is so cheap. You wouldn't be over pitching.

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. Good call on the boil. I forgot about that part.

As far as the 05, I was just going for something that ferments nice and clean, so I thought of 05. I was thinking of pitching 2 packs actually, just to be safe.

cactusgarrett · Oct 17, 2017

You shouldn't have to make a starter for the 605; I let mine go for 3 days and it's crazy sour. Just make sure you pre-acidify. Once soured, WY1056 works well with it being that acidic, so i would assume other comparable strains would, as well.

Rob2010SS · Oct 17, 2017

Thanks for the advice and the help through this. I've attached my final plan for the brew. I'm hoping to have it ready for Thanksgiving. I'll follow back and let you all know how it goes.

Thanks.

View attachment Cranberry Sour.pdf

Rob2010SS · Oct 18, 2017

Question for the smart people!!!

Using Bru'n Water spreadsheet, I have determined that my mash pH is around 5.38 for this grain bill. In order to pre-acidify to 4.0-4.4, I need to add a bare minimum of 2.0mL/gallon. However, the 4.0-4.4 pH is where I want my resulting 6.75 gallons of wort to be at, not the mash itself, and from what I can tell, that 2.0mL/gallon is only taking into account the mash.

I have entered my mash and sparge volumes on the spreadsheet and entered my gypsum and CaCl additions in g/gallon. Based on that, can I assume that the pH of my resulting 6.75 gallons of wort in the boil kettle (after sparge) will still be right around 5.38 and I can still use the 2.0mL/gallon lactic acid addition to pre-acidify my wort?

Rob2010SS · Oct 30, 2017

Quick update on this one. Just racked the fermented beer onto 6lbs cooked, mashed cranberries. It fermented out to 1.008 from 1.044. Its quite sour at 3.2-3.3 pH. Its awesome so far. I'll post back on the finished product. I may have went heavy on the cranberry but we'll see.

View attachment 1509397852913.jpg

View attachment 1509397862887.jpg

cactusgarrett · Oct 31, 2017

Well done. Even overdoing the cranberry, I doubt you'll be disappointed with it.

radwizard · Oct 31, 2017

Yeah man, looks great. How long are you gonna leave it on the Cranberries.
6 lbs sounds good to me!!

Rob2010SS · Oct 31, 2017

I was thinking of leaving it for 1-2 weeks on the cranberries. I don't want to tap it too early because I want it for Thanksgiving and I know if it's on tap 2 weeks before, it won't last that long lol. I may try and leave it in there until Nov 12th.... We'll see.

cactusgarrett · Oct 31, 2017

Probably need 2 weeks, anyway, to allow for the secondary fermentation to subside.

Rob2010SS · Oct 31, 2017

I'm surprised there's such a secondary fermentation going on in there anyway. There was a post on HBT somewhere about cranberries only being about 5% sugar and that they were "free foods for diabetics". Perhaps I just underestimated what yeast would do with 5% sugar.

Rob2010SS · Oct 31, 2017

So, another question came up today when my wife and I were talking about this beer. We were thinking of trying to get it on tap for Friday because we're having people over and then make another one for thanksgiving... Clearly, by the pictures, the cranberries kicked off a mild second fermentation.

Would it be bad to take a sample of the beer tonight and if we like it, begin the cold crash and transfer to keg after only being on the cranberries for 2.5 days?

cactusgarrett · Oct 31, 2017

Since you're kegging there should be no issues - 5% sugar aside. The unfinished secondary ferment is only an issue when you're bottling, really, as I read something like 0.001 or 0.002 drop is enough to carb bottles. So obviously if you bottle with the secondary still going, on TOP of the priming sugar, you're asking for trouble.

Bad? Absolutely not. As far as kegging only after 2.5 days in relation to the flavor, really that's going to be up to you, and if you like the profile enough to lock it in there. Typically the fruit profile would fade with some time, moreso the shorter the time spent on the fruit, but it sounds like you're expecting the keg to drain pretty quickly, so I wouldn't worry about THAT in this case, either.

Rob2010SS · Nov 15, 2017

Final update on this one. It turned out fantastic! Exactly what the wife and i were looking for in a thanksgiving cranberry sour. Good sour level (pH of 3.2 - 3.3 if i remember right), good head retention, good cranberry flavor, and bright color to remind of cranberries at thanksgiving. Thanks for all the input. Given that we cooked the cranberries and mashed them i don't expect the beer to clear even with the gelatin i did but I'm ok with that. Still tastes great.

Cranberry Kettle Sour Questions

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