What size holes for basket?

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

I'm in process of punching out my Bayou Classic fry basket for my eBIAB build..

I'm trying to decide if I should punch out the holes to 1" or 1.25" ...

I see some say they punched out to 1.25", but that seems like it would not leave much meat on the bone so to speak, between all the holes for the structure of the basket...

I'm not sure if you're talking about electrical conduit size (punch size) or the actual hole size... actual hole size of the 1" punch is 1.36" and actual hole size of the 1.25" punch is 1.7"

Any thoughts if there is much difference efficiency wise, staying with 1" as opposed to 1.25"..

I'd like to see pictures of baskets at each size.. especially the 1.25" versions...

Bobby_M · Aug 13, 2016

I doubt you would see much difference between the two.

TexasWine · Aug 13, 2016

Punch out every other hole if you're concerned about the structural integrity of the basket.

If you're electric, I would also recommend not punching the bottom. The bag will sort of poke through the larger holes. You don't want it touching the element.

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

If I punched out 'every' hole.. then they would all overlap... lol

I'm going with the smaller one... (1.25 conduit size = 1.37")

I screwed up at first and tried to use a cobra bit to enlarge the holes with that to accept the larger draw bolt, but that caused the metal to funnel inwards (plus it was a lot of work).. So I went ahead and punched them out with the 1/2" punch and then went larger...

The ones that I used the cobra bit on, were an abortion when it came time to punch the larger holes... I think I can clean it all up with a flap disc and file, but they won't be pretty... I guess I'll take pictures of the other side..

I was planning on punching out 'some' of the bottom holes using the 1' punch, but maybe I should wait and try the system without doing that first...

I have about 2" of clearance between the bottom of the basket and the element.. Is it likely that the bag could get pulled down that far through a 1.125" hole?

Anyways.. One row done (sixteen of thirty three holes).. 5 more to go... Might do one more today, since I'm supposed to be relaxing today.. do the whole thing over 3 or 4 days....

Kind of a PITA.. glad when this part is done..
The things we do for beer..
:mug:

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

This is not going well.. I think my punches are too dull for metal this thin.. Too many years of punching steel panels with them...

I might be 'forced' to buy a custom basket before this is all over...

TexasWine · Aug 13, 2016

Or ditch the basket and go with a BIAB false bottom from @Bobby_M. That's what I did when I up as upsized to a 62 quart kettle.

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

TexasWine said:
Or ditch the basket and go with a BIAB false bottom from @Bobby_M. That's what I did when I up as upsized to a 62 quart kettle.

This is an electric system..

Bobby_M · Aug 13, 2016

He knows that. My BIAB false bottoms were designed with electric in mind. It keeps the bag separate from the element and flows like a mutha.

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

Bobby_M said:
He knows that. My BIAB false bottoms were designed with electric in mind. It keeps the bag separate from the element and flows like a mutha.

That thing is nowhere high enough off the bottom to clear the element... and then what do you do, pull the bag over the sides of the kettle itself and clip it to the sides of the kettle?

That would not allow me to lift the thing up and rinse with clean water either...

Open to the idea, just not visualizing how it would work in my system..

Do you have pictures of your system and how it all works?

TexasWine · Aug 13, 2016

r8rphan said:
That thing is nowhere high enough off the bottom to clear the element...

Put longer bolts/legs on it.

r8rphan said:
and then what do you do, pull the bag over the sides of the kettle itself and clip it to the sides of the kettle?

Sort of. @wilserbrewer bags have a draw string. Just pull it over the side and cinch it down. Easy peasy.

r8rphan said:
That would not allow me to lift the thing up and rinse with clean water either...

If you are determined to sparge, you could always dunk sparge. That's the method I preferred before I switched to no sparge. I got much more consistent results as opposed to pouring over an open basket. But no sparge is definitely the way to go if you have a kettle that's big enough.

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

TexasWine said:
Put longer bolts/legs on it.

Sort of. @wilserbrewer bags have a draw string. Just pull it over the side and cinch it down. Easy peasy.

If you are determined to sparge, you could always dunk sparge. That's the method I preferred before I switched to no sparge. I got much more consistent results as opposed to pouring over an open basket. But no sparge is definitely the way to go if you have a kettle that's big enough.

Here's the deal... With the basket, I was going to have about 6 gallons of water for the 22-25 lb grain bills I was using (@70% efficiency)... That was with an inch and a quarter all around the basket.. So no basket would increase that water amount...

I am hoping to use the loc-line spray system I just ordered 4 days ago, and was even thinking of eventually adding a COFI tube to the end of that later that would be shoved down into the grains.. But that depends on what kind of efficiency I'm getting..... I am designing a HDPE or ABS mount for that system that was to mount on the rim of my basket..

Now I suppose I could design it to clip on the rim of the kettle itself instead, and draw the bag over the sides of the kettle, clip it, and then install the plastic mount...

I would like to be able to stir and spray the grains so closing the bag would kinda kill all that...

Also, I'm wondering how I would use my crane to lift it all out, as it only has enough room for the basket (with lifting hoop) plus 4-6"...

Does the bag have handles or something that are robust enough to pull the wet grains up? and how long is the bag when it is pulled up out of the water like that?

What kind of efficiency do you get with the no sparge method?

Wish I had known about this option before I destroyed the basket.... dang...

brianccarr · Aug 13, 2016

Bobby_M said:
He knows that. My BIAB false bottoms were designed with electric in mind. It keeps the bag separate from the element and flows like a mutha.

Bobby, any reason your false bottom couldn't be used with a gas recirculating BIAB system?

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

One nice thing about doing it the FB & Wilser bag way, is that Once I order them, the job of the mash basket goes away!

Convince me that this is how I want to go!

If I were to install it so that it is drawn around the edge of the kettle, and skipped the whole rinsing while raised method, is there any handy do-Dad that allows clipping a loc-line setup directly to the rim of the keggle, which would then allow me to skip making the plastic mount too?

That would mean short of cleaning out my fermentation chamber and dealing with the rust that developed on the coils since I last used it, and making the tensioner for my crane, I'm 'done' and ready to brew...

So, all I need to know is the answer to those two issues (enough room to lift the bag clear of the keggle with my crane, and how to mount the spray system)...

The crane allows about 20-22" of clearance between the clevis and the keggle rim....

TexasWine · Aug 13, 2016

r8rphan said:
If I were to install it so that it is drawn around the edge of the kettle, and skipped the whole rinsing while raised method, is there any handy do-Dad that allows clipping a loc-line setup directly to the rim of the keggle, which would then allow me to skip making the plastic mount too?

First, your don't have to use Locline to get good temp stability and efficiency. You can simply use silicon hose to return the wort to the top of the grain bed.

But, if you're like me and often do mashes with multiple rest temperatures, you might find the Locline to be a good option to more evenly heat the grain bed as you raise the temp.

Now, let's talk about the routing of the wort with a bag that is draped over the edges of the kettle. The most common option to handle this is to route it back through the kettle lid through a bulkhead. But sounds like you might have a keggle.

I did it a little different. I located my RTD downstream of my chiller, so I have a tee that needs to be affixed to something. I simply used a shop clamp to hold it to my kettle. From the tee you can get the wort back to the grain bed in any way your heart desires. Me, I go through a hose to another fitting with a bulkhead that penetrates a floating mash cap, and then to Locline. Simple and effective.

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

TexasWine said:
Me, I go through a hose to another fitting with a bulkhead that penetrates a floating mash cap, and then to Locline. Simple and effective.

a bulhead that penetrates a floating mash cap?

Say what?

TexasWine · Aug 13, 2016

r8rphan said:
Here's the deal... With the basket, I was going to have about 6 gallons of water for the 22-25 lb grain bills I was using (@70% efficiency)... That was with an inch and a quarter all around the basket.. So no basket would increase that water amount...

6 gallons for 25 lbs? That's a very low water/grain ratio!

r8rphan said:
Also, I'm wondering how I would use my crane to lift it all out, as it only has enough room for the basket (with lifting hoop) plus 4-6"...

Not sure what kind of crane you have. I use a very compact ratchet pulley. It needs very little room to lift the bag. On my mobile stand I have no more than 24" or so from the kettle rim to the anchor point. If I'm doing a large grain bill (25-30 lbs) I use the anchor point on my garage ceiling.

r8rphan said:
Does the bag have handles or something that are robust enough to pull the wet grains up? and how long is the bag when it is pulled up out of the water like that?

You can pull the bag out by its drawstring. It's rated for way more weight than you can stuff into it with wet grains. However, I'm pretty short and the ratchet pulley would soon be out of reach if I did this, and it wouldn't work on my mobile stand. So I use a short loop of cord/rope, wrap the loop around the bag a few times, pull one end of the loop through itself so it cinches snug around the bag, and attach the loop to the pulley. Really doesn't get any simpler. And it's very compact.

r8rphan said:
What kind of efficiency do you get with the no sparge method?

75% brewhouse. Others are 80-85%, and still others are 60-65%. Grain is cheap, sparging is a hassle.

TexasWine · Aug 13, 2016

r8rphan said:
a bulhead that penetrates a floating mash cap?

Say what?

Bulkhead. You know, the thing-a-ma-bobs that you use you attach a valve to the kettle when you don't want to weld or solder one on. @Bobby_M has the best designed ones out there.

And a mash cap is something you float on top of your grain bed during the mash. Reduces oxygen exposure.

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

Do you know anything about these bags?

I like the heavy duty strap handles, and they seem like they might not hang so long as the Wilser..

The Brew Bag

wilserbrewer · Aug 13, 2016

r8rphan said:
and then what do you do, pull the bag over the sides of the kettle itself and clip it to the sides ?

Yes, when using a basket it is best IMO to have the bag line the basket, but be large enough to extend up and over the kettle rim. The bag is fixed around the kettle rim with a draw string cord lock. The bag is gathered and placed on top of the basket for removal.

Lining just the basket is difficult due to the basket handle, also with the full bad lining the kettle you can mash above the top of the basket.

wilserbrewer · Aug 13, 2016

r8rphan said:
Do you know anything about these bags?

I like the heavy duty strap handles, and they seem like they might not hang so long as the Wilser..

Just my biased opinion of course, but I feel the straps are not needed. Check out my thread titled " hoisting a BIAB with ratchet pulley" for details.

Less overall length with a simple loop of cordage.

wilserbrewer · Aug 13, 2016

sorry doublepost

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

wilserbrewer said:
Yes, when using a basket it is best IMO to have the bag line the basket, but be large enough to extend up and over the kettle rim. The bag is fixed around the kettle rim with a draw string cord lock. The bag is gathered and placed on top of the basket for removal.

Lining just the basket is difficult due to the basket handle, also with the full bad lining the kettle you can mash above the top of the basket.

Since punching out the holes in my basket is turning into a nightmare, at this point I am considering ditching the basket altogether.. The issue with that though, is length of bag when pulled out of the keggle.. I only have about 22" to work with.... With the basket, that was plenty of room, but with a bag by itself, which hangs much longer, I'm not sure how doable this is...

Trying to avoid dropping $200 on a custom mesh basket...

wilserbrewer · Aug 13, 2016

22" overhead is tight! I typically gather the bag and lift or float the bag to the top of the kettle by hand, then cinch a lifting loop mid bag and hoist out of the kettle.

With only 22" you have a challenge. Very close, you may be able to hoist the bag above the wort level, let it drain then manually lift it over the keggle rim???

Do you also have a narrow top opening on the keggle?

Reason XX I don't prefer keggles

Sorry jmo

r8rphan · Aug 13, 2016

So that everybody understands what is going on here regarding my system..

r8rphan · Aug 14, 2016

The entire bottom, handle ring and all was cut off the keg, and will be repurposed as a drain pan.. I had a 1/2" bung welded into the center of it for a drain.. The idea is to use the crane to hist the grain out of the keggle, and lower it onto the drain pan, where I can squeeze it and collect the wort in a pitcher through a short piece of tubing connected to the drain......

r8rphan · Aug 14, 2016

TexasWine said:
6 gallons for 25 lbs? That's a very low water/grain ratio!

I used to strike with about 7 gallons before, using the cooler tun...

If I use the bag as opposed to the bag in the Bayou basket, the mash volume will go up to about 8-9 gallons for the same bill....

jjeffers09 · Aug 14, 2016

https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php#biab

^^ This is sweet.

wilserbrewer · Aug 14, 2016

You have done a wonderful job building your system, great DIY.

IMHO the following may need to be corrected...sorry just trying to help.

1. The basket is not wide enough, and does not sit low enough resulting in excessive dead space.

2. The keggle curved bottom and element mounting location result in excessive dead space.

3. Your hoist is not high enough and does not allow enough room overhead to use a FB and bag...

Good luck working out the kinks....

JONNYROTTEN · Aug 14, 2016

Ive used a basket and no basket.I never drilled the holes larger.There is about an inch between the basket and pot.The temp difference between the inside of the basket (grain bed) and the outside(where the one inch space and element is) was up to 12 deg difference.Totally unexceptable.I never really new what temp I was actually mashing at.I couldn't recirculate because the bag would start to overflow there was such little flow.I switched out to using just the bag for the last two batches.I used to squish the hell out of the open grain bag and top off my water level through the open grain bag.Now without the basket and the bag closed up while hanging I cant do that.My efficiency has gone down a bit and I'm working to adjust that but I know exactly my mash temp which to me are more important.If you go with the basket the bag works just fine with the basket handle.A few paperclips are all you need to hold it on the rim.As far as the height goes its a bit more of a pain in the ass without the basket.Due to height of my hoist(like the OP) I need to undo the bag from the pot,pull the string as tight as possible closing the bag and try to make a knot with a loop for the hook as close to the bag as possible all while reaching over a hot pot. It kind of sucks a bit.
I wonder if Wilser would consider sewing a small loop for the hook into the top of the bag for hoisting. Say at 12-3-6-9 o'clock. Or at 12-6...or even at just 12...I have loop envy damb it...I need a loop

Edit: A homemade false bottom someone here had given me works perfect to keep the bag off the element.(5500W)I also used it to rest the basket on and only used the hoist when cranking it out which worked nice not working around a hoist. I do 10 gallon batches and average around 25 pounds of grain in a 20 gallon pot.

r8rphan · Aug 14, 2016

JONNYROTTEN said:
Due to height of my hoist(like the OP) I need to undo the bag from the pot,pull the string as tight as possible closing the bag and try to make a knot with a loop for the hook as close to the bag as possible all while reaching over a hot pot. It kind of sucks a bit.
I wonder if Wilser would consider sewing a small loop for the hook into the top of the bag for hoisting. Say at 12-3-6-9 o'clock. Or at 12-6...or even at just 12...I have loop envy damb it...I need a loop
.

That's exactly what I 'do not' want to do.... The whole point of this build is to make things simpler/easier/faster...

I have to decide between a new basket (which would be larger than my current one) and a bag only... I am unhappy with my current basket.. Perhaps I can clean it up and still use it as a turkey fryer... take a grinder and a flap disc and some auto body tools to it..

I am wondering, those of you who use a bag only, do you ever have issues with cavitation, ie, having to pull the bag away from the sides to allow air out?

Ideally, I could have a bag that fits my keggle so that it has hoops that when installed and filled with grain and drawn up taught to take out any slack, are just above the rim of the keggle... then the rest of the bag extends up above that... a draw string would be at the top of the bag itself...

Then the excess past the handles could be folded over the rim and clipped... That way, I could just draw the four handles together, clip the clevis to it and draw it out of the wort and drop in on the collection bowl..

Basically, this means I need to have one of these bags custom made.. If it had straps like the Brew Bag, then even when it became worn it could still be used by just dropping another bag in it... (like the wilser)..

Even if I go with a mesh basket, I can see the wisdom in getting Bobby's false bottom, as if set up right then that would negate my having to figure out how to support the bag in the keggle at the right height without the crane attached...

I wonder what it would cost to get them to modify their bag to add a second set pf hoops lower down on the bag?

Is there anything wrong with this idea?

Mainly, I'm just concerned with the sucking problem that some experience with a bag only... Once I feel comfortable about that, then I can ditch the basket idea entirely if I have the right bag custom made..

Of course, if that costs too much, then I might as well go with the custom mesh basket approach....

What size holes for basket?

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