Weizen devote looking to learn more...

Hello fellow brewers, and thanks for having me!

I thus far brew only weissbier/hefeweizen/Bavarian/Germany style weizens. Oh yeah, and that one batch of Belgian white ale. And the one dunkelweizen.

I discovered hefeweizen during some time spent in Germany(most bars served Franziskaner), and there's just no other beer I've found in stores here in the northeast U.S. that I like half as much so far. Thus I've been delighted and surprised to discover how easy and gratifying it is to make weissbier at home that tastes, at least to me, just like the German stuff. While true that decent imported singles can be found at a few stores, they're expensive and of course lack the gratification of drinking ones own beer.

As of the time of this post/joining the forum, I've brewed I'd guess about twenty 5-gallon batches. All via the recipes and directions provided by my local brew shop. Essentially all my brew knowledge fits on the two photocopies they gave me, I know the basic how, but very little of the why, other than trying 5 or 6 different yeasts I mostly stick to my one recipe. So I'm looking to learn some more.

I now usually use Wyeast 3068 or Safbrew WB-06. At first I just did a one week primary and bottled, but now add a two week secondary and much prefer the results.

This is my favorite recipe from the notebook at my local brew shop:
7Lbs wheat LME
8oz light wheat
8oz torrified wheat
8oz Vienna malt
2oz Hallertau or Tettnang hop pellets

If you recommend any threads or have any wisdom to share I'd love to know!

Thanks!!

JK

Edelweiss might be just the thing for you.

Thanks! I'll look for it at the bev-store.

Some details here, if interested....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=585203

Thanks. I'd like to brew that one. Discovering lots of recipes on this site, quite the resource!

Have you tried a Roggenbier? You can make it with Wyeast 3068. Might be down your alley (while expanding your styles)

I've been wanting to try the one in Brewing Classic Styles.

I also really love German hefewiezen, although I have never been to Germany. Paulaner is my favorite, but franziskaner is good too. I just started brewing and only have two batches so far. Do you mind if I pick your brain? What temps have you tried fermenting 3068 and what have you found to be the best? Do you make a starter for it, or use smack packs and pitch it direct? If you need recipes, Homebrewer 99's has lots of good feedback, as does edwort's for all grain.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=35679
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=32811

Hefeweizens are best when fresh. That is why your Germany experience was so much better than the imports you buy here. What we get has been sitting in a shipping container for months, and then at the distributor/ store for added months. If you're out of homebrew, look for a local craft brewery or brewpub that brews a hefeweizen.

m1k3 said:

Have you tried a Roggenbier? You can make it with Wyeast 3068. Might be down your alley (while expanding your styles)

I've been wanting to try the one in Brewing Classic Styles.

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I haven't tried that but will add it to my to-brew list. Thanks!

Another one you might like is smoked wheat - the recipe is quite easy and results in something that is just about like sitting around a campfire on a crisp autumn evening.

Details here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=524021

Brewmasher said:

Hefeweizens are best when fresh. That is why your Germany experience was so much better than the imports you buy here. What we get has been sitting in a shipping container for months, and then at the distributor/ store for added months. If you're out of homebrew, look for a local craft brewery or brewpub that brews a hefeweizen.

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A few breweries in my area offer their interpretation of a hefe, a few were at best half way there, but most not even recognizable as a hefe. Even an old import is better. Maybe they think people won't like it?? The trend here seems to be overwhelmingly hoppy IPA's and pitch black stouts. But thanks to hating those beers I discovered home brewing, which I prefer over any store beer, so it's all good.

TasunkaWitko said:

Another one you might like is smoked wheat - the recipe is quite easy and results in something that is just about like sitting around a campfire on a crisp autumn evening.

Details here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=524021

Click to expand...

Sounds good! Adding it to my list.

If you aren't adverse to extract brews, here's a simple (SHaME) Single Hop and Malt Extract hefe. I've made two batches of this, and it is by far my family's favorite!


6# Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
1 oz Hallertau hop pellets, 0.5 @ 60 min, 0.5 @ 10 min.
WLP 380 yeast

3 gal. water to boil
Turn off heat, add DME until dissolved
Bring to boil, add 0.5 oz. Hallertau
@ 50 min., add 0.5 oz. Hallertau
Chilled wort to 68F, added ~ 2 gal. topoff water to make 5 gal. OG = 1.051
Aerated well, pitched WLP380
Fermed @ amb. 63-64F 3 weeks, FG = 1.016

When pouring, stop with about an inch of beer left in the bottle, swirl up the yeast and dump it in. Delicious!

cloudybrewer said:

I also really love German hefewiezen, although I have never been to Germany. Paulaner is my favorite, but franziskaner is good too. I just started brewing and only have two batches so far. Do you mind if I pick your brain? What temps have you tried fermenting 3068 and what have you found to be the best? Do you make a starter for it, or use smack packs and pitch it direct? If you need recipes, Homebrewer 99's has lots of good feedback, as does edwort's for all grain.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=35679
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=32811

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Thanks for the links! I'll check those out. I'm very happy to share what little I know.

I also primarily use 3068 and pitch direct, never tried a starter, assumed the liquid in the pack was one? With dry WB-06 I just pre-hydrate in water for 15min and pitch, read somewhere that was good to do with dry yeast.

Another thing I do, entirely my own idea, not sure what the pro's would say about it, is after pitching I use a drill powered paint mixer to create a vortex in the brew bucket and aerate the crap out of it. Since initial fermentation is aerobic I assumed it a good idea, and the yeast is certainly well distributed after that. I should ask the community about it.

As far as temps, I've never experimented, whatever room temp happens to be, though I can say it's always between 65 and 75. Same after bottling. I should experiment with temps some time. What have you heard is the best temp for weizens?

JK

JulietKilo said:

Thanks for the links! I'll check those out. I'm very happy to share what little I know.

I also primarily use 3068 and pitch direct, never tried a starter, assumed the liquid in the pack was one? With dry WB-06 I just pre-hydrate in water for 15min and pitch, read somewhere that was good to do with dry yeast.

Another thing I do, entirely my own idea, not sure what the pro's would say about it, is after pitching I use a drill powered paint mixer to create a vortex in the brew bucket and aerate the crap out of it. Since initial fermentation is aerobic I assumed it a good idea, and the yeast is certainly well distributed after that. I should ask the community about it.

As far as temps, I've never experimented, whatever room temp happens to be, though I can say it's always between 65 and 75. Same after bottling. I should experiment with temps some time. What have you heard is the best temp for weizens?

JK

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I favor European wheat beers with German Hefe's and Belgian Wits being my top picks. To get the potential most from a yeast like 3068 or WLP300, you need to be a bit on the "rough" side with it. The smack pak you are referring to is not actually a starter as you'll hear it called. A true starter is done typically in a flask with a starter wort which is culturing your yeast before pitching it. Straight out of the smack pak is a direct pitch and don't aerate the wort, plus go a bit on the higher fermentation side say 68 or 69F. Make the yeast "work" for it's dinner and the rewards will be vivid esters and phenols which are enjoyable.

Unless you have a specific setup for temp control, you'll be gambling that ambient temps will work to your advantage, which is semi-doubtful in the long run. An old refrigerator with a $36 Inkbird controller will give you better results.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=587826

This is a good read and gives you several ways to control flavors a Hefe can typically offer. Fermentation temps and the way you handle your yeast are the two biggest influences on the finished product. Hefe is best consumed young so don't try long term aging as your vibrant flavors age out on you. That's why homebrewed Hefe's taste better than imported ones....there are fresh!

Morrey said:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=587826

This is a good read and gives you several ways to control flavors a Hefe can typically offer. Fermentation temps and the way you handle your yeast are the two biggest influences on the finished product. Hefe is best consumed young so don't try long term aging as your vibrant flavors age out on you. That's why homebrewed Hefe's taste better than imported ones....there are fresh!

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Totally agree, except that I have hefes that were bottled 9 months ago and haven't lost a thing flavor-wise. Maybe because of the extract recipe?

JulietKilo said:

I also primarily use 3068 and pitch direct, never tried a starter, assumed the liquid in the pack was one?

As far as temps, I've never experimented, whatever room temp happens to be, though I can say it's always between 65 and 75. Same after bottling. I should experiment with temps some time. What have you heard is the best temp for weizens?

JK

Click to expand...

From what I understand, the smack pack just wakes them up much like rehydrating dry yeast. Neither causes any increase in numbers like a starter does.

As far a temps for 3068, what I have read has been all over the board. Some say always make a starter with liquid yeast no matter what and Hefes should be fermented at 62F, wort temp not ambient. Others say 3068 should be abused, under pitched and fermented warm in the low 70s. If you read enough you'll be as confused as me!

I just bottled Homebrewer 99s Paulaner clone. I used 3068 with a severe under pitch (old smack pack that wouldn't even swell) and fermented in a controlled chamber at 70F wort temp. It started very slowly and took 8 days to attenuate, so I guess I abused it good and proper. It tasted pretty good on bottling day, even warm and flat. Time will tell.

cloudybrewer said:

From what I understand, the smack pack just wakes them up much like rehydrating dry yeast. Neither causes any increase in numbers like a starter does.

As far a temps for 3068, what I have read has been all over the board. Some say always make a starter with liquid yeast no matter what and Hefes should be fermented at 62F, wort temp not ambient. Others say 3068 should be abused, under pitched and fermented warm in the low 70s. If you read enough you'll be as confused as me!

I just bottled Homebrewer 99s Paulaner clone. I used 3068 with a severe under pitch (old smack pack that wouldn't even swell) and fermented in a controlled chamber at 70F wort temp. It started very slowly and took 8 days to attenuate, so I guess I abused it good and proper. It tasted pretty good on bottling day, even warm and flat. Time will tell.

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What were the esters like?

cloudybrewer said:

As far a temps for 3068, what I have read has been all over the board. Some say always make a starter with liquid yeast no matter what and Hefes should be fermented at 62F, wort temp not ambient. Others say 3068 should be abused, under pitched and fermented warm in the low 70s. If you read enough you'll be as confused as me!

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Was there a noticeable flavor difference between the 62F vs low 70's?

I've covered that temp range unintentionally just due to seasonal variation in the corner of my kitchen, thus never had them at the same time to compare.

Or maybe you'd like to try brewing a rare German Dampfbier? It uses WY3638 yeast in this recipe I designed myself. I like German beers, since my family's from Upper Bavaria. I even have a recipe posted for the English version of Mumme. Here's the one under my recipes ( click on arrow under avatar for a member's listed recipes)...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=511185

JulietKilo said:

A few breweries in my area offer their interpretation of a hefe, a few were at best half way there, but most not even recognizable as a hefe. Even an old import is better. Maybe they think people won't like it?? The trend here seems to be overwhelmingly hoppy IPA's and pitch black stouts. But thanks to hating those beers I discovered home brewing, which I prefer over any store beer, so it's all good.

Click to expand...

Yes, the trend is the same here in SE Michigan. About the closest you can get is a hopped up saison. I asked the brewmaster at a local brew pub why he doesn't brew hefe's and the like and he told me "they just don't sell".

Hefeweizen is one of my favourite Summer styles. I have a tried and tested recipe/method now that is one of only a few that I don't intend changing. 60% wheat, 40% pils, 10-12IBU's of a noble hop, wy3068. Step mash 42/62/72C (108/144/162F) for 20/20/45 minutes (decoction preferred but I rarely have the time).

The next bits I've really found take it to the next level
- Pitch at 15C ferment at 17C (62-63F.....I started this after reading Jamil Z's book)
- add spiess (unfermented wort) or krausen (young fermenting wort) to bottle carbonate to at least 3.2 volumes OR bottle in PET bottles with gravity remaining (do a fast-ferment test to see where gravity will finish), releasing pressure if needed (don't do this with glass....but this is how lots of German brewers do it).
- Bottle early and drink young. I typically bottle after 7 days (earlier if using the 'gravity remaining' carbonation method). I don't like them anywhere near as much from keg.

I have only brewed this one hefe, and chose 70F. So I can't say how 70 compares to 62, I was just saying that the perfect temp for Hefes is all over the board among HBT members.

As far as the taste of mine, when I said it tasted good on bottling day I now believe that the carbonating sugar was masking the flavor a bit. At one week in the bottle, I cooled and cracked a couple aaaaaaaaaaaand ........... not good. There is a weird smell in the glass which I'm guessing is sulfur and an off taste that my palate isn't sophisticated enough to identify. After two it was getting too harsh to drink. SOAB!!! Maybe my severe under pitch was too severe. Most describe 3068 as a fast starting beast. Mine took 8 days and produced little to no krausen.

Wyeast's website says under pitching produces volatile sulfur compounds and fusel alcohol. Sound s about right.

70F produces more banana than 62. 62 gives a nice balance between banana and clove. The extra sweetness does go well with hefes, which I think is part of the reason why they taste nice young. It is also why I like to form some dextrins (non-fermentable) with the longer 162F rest for conversion.

IME WY3068 can produce sulphur even with a good, healthy pitch, but it does dissipate with time (even in the bottle). If it doesn't, just pour it into a glass and leave it for ten mins or so before drinking - most of the sulphur will have gone by then. The worst flaw I've had is a thin, tart finish from low mash temp and high ferment temp.

Informative read that reminded me of this thread. Data used is from Lallemand....

https://famouslastworts.com/2016/07/17/add-glucose-gives-more-bananas/

I just brewed up a weizenbock that has a lot of banana and vanilla character to it. I made it by doubling my hefeweizen recipe, which is usually all bubblegum and clove. Due to a limit on grain capacity I ran a sort of Herrmann-Verfahren mash, written about here https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/brewing-better-wheat-beers-with-herrmann/ and it seems to have worked pretty well.

I just got a 5 gallon batch in the fermenter. Things went well.