Plastic boil kettles (pail)

So I've seen a bunch of people put a heating element (1500W) in a plastic pail and use this as a boil kettle. Is this safe?

That's what I use for a HLT. A 5-gallon Menard's bucket with a 5500W heating element. It will bring 4 gallons of cold water to a full boil in just a few minutes.

I chose a Menard's bucket instead of Home Depot because the Menard's are .090" thick and HD's are .070".

It's safe if you have water/wort in it when you turn it on... I'm looking at building one as we speak. Going to strip the elements out of a couple of K-Mart 10 dollar tea kettles, use and 8-10 gallon HDPE bucket (possibly a Rubbermqde Brute 10 gallon white container depending on how rigid it is) and control it with probably with an STC-1000, or maybe a PI depending on how fancy I want to get with the controller side of things.

I'm primarily looking for something to boil indoor in the winter.

My goal is to keep this below $100 bucks, and still "trick it out," with a ball valve, diptube, thermowell, sightglass and some sort of mesh hop spider or basket to keep the hops out of the wort when I drain. I'm also toying with the idea of having an integrated wort chiller mounted in it too.


Turkey fryers aren't as common in Australia, The UK, and I guess even Canada, and evidently a lot of brewers rig plastic bucket E-systems up, so a lot of the research into the safety, and a lot of problem solving is found on their sites and youtube channels. They're ahead of the game on this in those places. Just like the Aussies were with BIAB and No-Chill Brewing, which we only heard of after John Palmer went to Australia and wrote about it for BYO magazine a few years ago (which people bashed on here for the longest time, and now is widely embraced.)


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwyWr6F9Dpc[/ame]

Gash Slugg (Gavin Ellicott) on the Homebrew Network Facebook Page has a great vid on how to strip the elements out of the cheap tea kettles.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLAcxHTvu4U[/ame]

I believe the colored (orange or blue) HD and Lowes buckets aren't food grade. You may or may not choose to worry about this, but since you are asking about safety, I'll assume you are worried about this, at least a bit. Food Grade ratings depend on both the base material and the manufacturing process (e.g. mold release agents, etc.). And as Augiedoggy pointed out on a related thread, food safety standards can vary by jurisdiction, so a UK sourced bucket that meets UK food grade standards might not meet US food grade standards, and the US sourced bucket of the same brand (should such a thing be obtainable) might not be manufactured to the same standards.

Lowes also sells white food grade HDPE buckets, but the food grade rating may be limited to below a certain temperature. Some food grade HDPE buckets are rated food grade to 212F, but not all are.

On top of the food grade rating, there's the mechanical stability at higher temperatures to worry about, particularly if you punch holes in the bucket to fit an element etc. HDPE will soften a bit at 212F, but probably not excessively so for the thicker kinds of buckets.

So you need to do your research for your specific source of HDPE buckets. The food safety comments also apply to other materials, and there are some options out there that are more mechanically stable at 212F than HDPE. Polypropylene for example, if you can find a food grade bucket in that for cheap.

dyqik said:

I believe the colored (orange or blue) HD and Lowes buckets aren't food grade.
So you need to do your research for your specific source of HDPE buckets.

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Actually this too has been done to death on here in regards to whether or not the unlabeled orange HD buckets are or aren't foodsafe, despite whether they're labeled as such.... plastics people on here going back as far as 10 years ago have shown them to be safe despite all the naysayers. Even on Prepper's websites there's info backing up their safety for food storage uses.

That's going to be a person's choice on the matter and there's plenty of info for people to make up their mind. Lots of people have used them for fermenters. But always people feel the need to bring it up. But to many, it's one of those beat a dead horse things. *shrug*

I wouldn't use them with heaters as a boiler...but then again, 5 gallons is really to small to use for anything I think, unless someone's doing this for 2.5 gallon batches, or heating sparge water like Z-bob.

But this part you're right on about. VVVVVVVVVV

So you need to do your research for your specific source of HDPE buckets.

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Well what is old for some people is a new discovery for others. My local brew shop here in Canada has 8gal food grade pails so pics to come ☺

DreBourbon said:

My local brew shop here in Canada has 8gal food grade pails so pics to come ☺

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I'm torn between using one of those or opting for a 10 gallon bucket of some type, just to have plenty of room to boil off enough for both 60 and 90 min. boils, and to have space for the mounts for the various things I want in it.

Post your results...Don't know when I'll get around to building this.

Revvy said:

Actually this too has been done to death on here in regards to whether or not the unlabeled orange HD buckets are or aren't foodsafe, despite whether they're labeled as such.... plastics people on here going back as far as 10 years ago have shown them to be safe despite all the naysayers. Even on Prepper's websites there's info backing up their safety for food storage uses.

That's going to be a person's choice on the matter and there's plenty of info for people to make up their mind. Lots of people have used them for fermenters. But always people feel the need to bring it up. But to many, it's one of those beat a dead horse things. *shrug*

I wouldn't use them with heaters as a boiler...but then again, 5 gallons is really to small to use for anything I think, unless someone's doing this for 2.5 gallon batches, or heating sparge water like Z-bob.

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TBH, that really depends on your personal definition of "safe". "Certified food grade" is one definition, "likely safe enough under normal circumstances for dry goods at room temperature" is another. Of course, there may be little actual difference in the risks.

I personally am quite happy milling grain into a blue Lowes bucket, and using it for rinse water for hoses during a brew day, but I'm not so happy with the idea of boiling wort in one for an hour, or fermenting in one.

dyqik said:

TBH, that really depends on your personal definition of "safe". "Certified food grade" is one definition, "likely safe enough under normal circumstances for dry goods at room temperature" is another. Of course, there may be little actual difference in the risks.

I personally am quite happy milling grain into a blue Lowes bucket, and using it for rinse water for hoses during a brew day, but I'm not so happy with the idea of boiling wort in one for an hour, or fermenting in one.

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Agree. I just don't see the value in using plastic here. As said above, plus accidental dry fire those elements and you likely have a dangerous fire on your hands. Save some money and get a proper SS pot. My opinion, anyway.

You guys might not see the "value" in doing this, but clearly tons of brewers throughout the world think otherwise. Hence all the people doing it. Maybe those people who can't afford nice shiny stainless.

*shrug*

Wow, people have evidently "seen the value" of it since 1990.....

Five Gallon Plastic Electric Brewery

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XBeJBStUqI[/ame]

People on Instructables think so too.

Evidently BYO did stuff on it as well.... so they must have seen the value in it dontjathink?

I'm entirely happy with the idea of boiling in an appropriate plastic bucket - I've used a Brupak boiler in the UK. The risk of burning/accidental dry firing is not much different in a SS vessel anyway, unless you've gone for the lowest watt density element. I'd prefer PP over HDPE, as it doesn't soften quite so much at 212F, but either is probably OK.

I do think it's worth paying $1.50 extra (or asking nicely at a bakery and saving $3) to get a food-grade certified bucket, and/or checking into whether the bucket you choose is food safe at 212F.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should, IMO. A stainless kettle won't catch fire from dry fired elements. Plastic might under the right circumstances.

dyqik, btw you directly contradicted yourself in your last two posts. Now I don't know if you are happy or not!

I've thought about this a bit, sort of as a fun inexpensive project...but I really don't need another boil kettle.

If I were to do it, I think I would use standard water heater elements and a 15 gal HDPE drum cut down to 10-12 gallons. My LHBS receives LME in these and gives these away when empty, and they are very sturdy, thick buckets, plenty sturdy for the task IMO.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23849

I have a couple I use around the house, the handy thing is you can drill two small holes and fit the wire handle from a standard 5 gal bucket to make a super heavy duty 8 - 12 gallon bucket, that works great for many tasks like hauling firewood, spent grain etc....

wilser, how is the stiffness of one of those containers once you cut the top off? Plastic buckets generally have stiffening rings around the top to strengthen them, but those containers wouldn't have one, and cutting the top off would weaken them quite a bit.

BrunDog said:

dyqik, btw you directly contradicted yourself in your last two posts. Now I don't know if you are happy or not!

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There's no contradiction - I wouldn't boil in a blue Lowes bucket, but I would boil in an appropriate plastic bucket.

dyqik said:

wilser, how is the stiffness of one of those containers once you cut the top off? Plastic buckets generally have stiffening rings around the top to strengthen them, but those containers wouldn't have one, and cutting the top off would weaken them quite a bit.

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Without a top rim, the 15 gal drums are a little flexible at the top, and may not form a perfect circle, but they are sturdy as hell and damn near indestructable IME, the HDPE is 1/8" plus thick, so they are very sturdy, much more so than any other pail I've used, top rim or not.

dyqik said:

There's no contradiction - I wouldn't boil in a blue Lowes bucket, but I would boil in an appropriate plastic bucket.

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My bad... Misread the Lowes qualifier.

Anyway, this is why this hobby rocks... Lots of ways to skin the cat.

I'm gonna try it. I bought a 1500W element for 10$ and I'm gonna do a dry (or wet) run on a cheap Lowe's bucket just to test it. My local brew shop has 30l pails for 20$. Once I'm satisfied with my design I'll repeat on the bigger pail. I usually brew outside on a propane burner but here in Canada it's damn cold this time of year so I need an alternate method. End of the day as long as I get a nice rolling boil I'll be happy. Worse case I have an electric HLT.

DreBourbon said:

I'm gonna try it. I bought a 1500W element for 10$ and I'm gonna do a dry (or wet) run on a cheap Lowe's bucket just to test it. My local brew shop has 30l pails for 20$. Once I'm satisfied with my design I'll repeat on the bigger pail. I usually brew outside on a propane burner but here in Canada it's damn cold this time of year so I need an alternate method. End of the day as long as I get a nice rolling boil I'll be happy. Worse case I have an electric HLT.

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That's why I decided to give it a try too, as a CHEAP alternative to my full size setup in the winter. Plus I want to see how many bells and whistles I can get into in (Like an integrated wort chiller) and still keep the price low.

wilserbrewer said:

If I were to do it, I think I would use standard water heater elements and a 15 gal HDPE drum cut down to 10-12 gallons. My LHBS receives LME in these and gives these away when empty, and they are very sturdy, thick buckets, plenty sturdy for the task IMO.

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Hey brother! I see you're keeping the Corona thread alive (another one that there was a HUGE amount of naysayers around before we started it.)

I'm just totally fascinated by the idea that these Aussies and English folks are doing it with the elements from 10 dollar electric tea kettle elements and the plugs they came in.

In the comments of the instructable someone posted a pic of this one. Kinda close to the one you posted.

the Brits had 240V mains instead of 120V. Their little electric tea kettles are 3500W (I'd *love* to have one of those in my kitchen)

So awesome.

I've been wondering if the stc 1-000 I run my coffee maker sous-vide machine with can handle the draw from two tea elements on the same circuit simultaneously. I've been thinking about doing what Gash did here with a relay on it, if I go stc to control it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4xZx7VO2U4#t=5m10s


Edit, of course there's a thread on external relays with stc-1000s on here already....

z-bob said:

the Brits had 240V mains instead of 120V. Their little electric tea kettles are 3500W (I'd *love* to have one of those in my kitchen)

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I've been talking to Gash Slugg about it, he still thinks, that regardless of whether it's 240 over there, or 110 here, that if our boils water in the little kettles then it should work in these. He's pretty sure one of his viewers in Canada has done it and is trying to find the guys info.

An 8-ounce tomato sauce can makes a great ersatz electrical box for the water heater element connections. Just cut a 1-1/4" (or whatever size it is) hole in the bottom and mount the element thru the hole. Drill another little hole in the side for the strain-relief for the power cord.

ETA: don't forget to ground it.

Revvy said:

I've been talking to Gash Slugg about it, he still thinks, that regardless of whether it's 240 over there, or 110 here, that if our boils water in the little kettles then it should work in these. He's pretty sure one of his viewers in Canada has done it and is trying to find the guys info.

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Well, it depends on the other heat losses - a US electric kettle maxes out at around 1500W, while our UK electric kettles are typically 2400W (must. make. more. tea. faster... ) - unfortunately not the full 3500W you can pull from the wall in the UK.

A tea kettle is a pretty small, and contained volume, so it has a lower convection and evaporative losses from the surface than a brew kettle. Many now are also "cool touch", meaning the walls are plastic/somewhat insulated. Without insulation in the much lossier bucket, you may reach a point where your heat losses are only just balanced by the heating element, and you're stuck below boiling. I think you'll probably need a lid and maybe some insulation to get a ~5 gallon boil going. Basically, you'll need to get about the same level of insulation as the Grainfather - that just about boils well enough with 1600W.

Of course, you could probably stick an element in a 10 gal cooler...

anyone try and use a dimmer extention cord to control the voltage. Then dial it down to keep the temp the same, instead of using a temp controller?

I haven't used a dimmer, but have use a router speed control dial with roasting coffee beans and I could see it being useful to regulate the voltage.

120v, 240v, 250v whatever it takes....

Watts are what is required. For 5 gallons, 1500 will be like watching paint dry, 2000 a little better, but 2 elements at 1500w you are definitely in the game. But you will need a large enough bucket to contain the nice boil...thinking 10 gal.

I would skip control for now....with a low powered kettle, all you want to typically do is turn it up, not down lol

Please all understand basic electrical, there have been a few comments that concern me....

Electric can hurt or worse yet kill you, if you don't have an understanding of what is required for safety, please step away from the lamp cord and tea kettle elements immediately.

Heard you will need 2 circuits for 2x1500W elements. Is that true?. Also read a 120V outlet will push a max of 1350W.

wilserbrewer said:

Electric can hurt or worse yet kill you, if you don't have an understanding of what is required for safety, please step away from the lamp cord and tea kettle elements immediately.

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volts and watts are not what you need to be worried about. Its the amp draw that is what will hurt or (highly unlikely with this type of stuff) kill you. Most household electronics just don't have the amp draw to stop your heart. Unless you are brewing in the tub. Only time i get antsy around power is when im working on air conditioning condensers. When running, they draw around 15-20 amps constant, and on start up, pull 20-30 amps, 220v. I have seen big guys get hit by those wires and get knocked back, and knocked out.

DreBourbon said:

Heard you will need 2 circuits for 2x1500W elements. Is that true?. Also read a 120V outlet will push a max of 1350W.

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well, my space heater in my brew room pulls 2200w on high, and runs fine off of a 120v outlet. Thats what its designed for. But, if the space heater is running and my ferm. chamber's hair dryer (1500w) kicks on, it throws the 20 amp breaker.

I don't think your max wattage draw on a standard 120v outlet is limited like that. It could be, what's the amp of your outlet? 15 or 20?

I would use two anyway, but you have to be sure they're not on the same circuit I think.

Regarding plastic, there is a company that sells full systems made of plastic. Someone told me about the link once and I cannot find it. It made a whole lot of sense and saves a great deal of money. I went stainless because I had stainless already as I set up my electric brewery. I would not be opposed to plastic TBH.

Revvy said:

I've been wondering if the stc 1-000 I run my coffee maker sous-vide machine with can handle the draw from two tea elements on the same circuit simultaneously. I've been thinking about doing what Gash did here with a relay on it, if I go stc to control it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4xZx7VO2U4#t=5m10s


Edit, of course there's a thread on external relays with stc-1000s on here already....

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If you use an inexpensive relay for the load with it like this,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Square-D-Co...864393?hash=item25addf0609:g:VYUAAOSwFnFV9t-G
you can use one stc1000 to control power for 2 separate circuits at the same time.. I do this with them in my glycol conical temp control panel... when the stc says cool I have it switch a dual relay which turns on my 240v chiller recirc pump as well as my 24v solenoid valve for that conical... its actually very easy to wire up.

DreBourbon said:

Heard you will need 2 circuits for 2x1500W elements. Is that true?. Also read a 120V outlet will push a max of 1350W.

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Obligatory Warning: Please consult someone who actually knows about electrics before you do anything. At the very least read and make sure you understand the electrical primer stickied at the top of this subforum. And forget whatever it was you were reading before, because it's wrong on very simple basic math/physics.

Power = current x voltage = 15A maximum x 120V for a typical US circuit = 1800W maximum. This is the maximum power that can be drawn from one 15A circuit. If you plug a higher power element in, or two elements totalling more power, more than 15A of current will be drawn, and the breaker will trip.

If you want to run two elements totalling more than 1800W, you need to use two 15A circuits - that is, two outlets connected to two different breakers. (the same applies for 20A circuits, but the power maximum is 2400W there).

dyqik said:

Obligatory Warning: Please consult someone who actually knows about electrics before you do anything.

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Well considering I was the guy who came up with the de rigueur stc-1000 wiring diagram on here that helped a lot of people understand how to to it, I got it covered. But I'm not planning to do anything without sitting down with an electrician buddy and have him double check my plan.

I'm still just at the throwing ideas together phase.

Revvy said:

Well considering I was the guy who came up with the de rigueur stc-1000 wiring diagram on here that helped a lot of people understand how to to it, I got it covered. But I'm not planning to do anything without sitting down with an electrician buddy and have him double check my plan.

I'm still just at the throwing ideas together phase.

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That wasn't aimed at you - but a couple of other posters on this thread are making comments that worry me a bit.

Aside from the practical electrical and safety issues here why doesn't an electrical element placed directly IN the wort (or the mash) not burn the wort rather than boil it?

bernardsmith said:

Aside from the practical electrical and safety issues here why doesn't an electrical element placed directly IN the wort (or the mash) not burn the wort rather than boil it?

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Watt density.

This is why ULWD (ultra low watt density ) Is always better and less likely to burn and scorch.. Think of it like a regular gas burner (ULWD) vs a torch (HWD) concentrating the same amount of gas burning the same btus only in a small concentrated area of the bottom of the kettle... The torch will scorch the wort in contact with that area of the kettle but when that same flame energy is spread out and applied in a gentler fashion over a greater surface area in a regular burner its less likely to burn or scorch... Simply put the larger the amount of element thats in the kettle the gentler and less likely to scorch or burn the element will be.

OF course lwd and even HWD elements are used often successfully but with tradeoffs like constant stirring and slight scorching that may or may not be detected (if you have a burned on film covering you element surface after brewing that required effort to remove you do have scorching to some degree plain and simple) Of course everyone defends thier purchases so its difficult to see this sometimes when reading the threads and some people have systems with pumps constantly moving the liquid over the element surface which effectively work as sort of a liquid cooling system on the element surface which is a good work around until something goes wrong.

If you can I suggest the ripple 4500w or 5500w elements (the all stainless versions for brewing can be bought for under $30 including shipping now so) no real reason to use other things unless you've designed a system that wont allow it for some reason.

This is also the reasoning behind the large amount of heating coil in a blichmann boil coil... Its just a smarter gentler safer was to do it..

Basically, a 120v 15 amp circuit has the potential for 1800 watts. 120*15. Rule of thumb is to keep it around 80% of max or 1440 watts. That being said, 1500 watts on a 15 amp circuit would be okay. If you had 12 gauge wire, you could run a 20 amp circuit and get up to 2400 watts or 1920 watts using the 80% rule. I would be hesitant to run a 20 amp breaker over 14 gauge wire as the wire can get pretty hot.

Agreed. 120V you won't be happy but it won't kill you. 220V is a different story.