Single Infusion Mash for Millet? Too good to be true?

Hey gang, I've been reviewing the processes you guys use for AG mashes with millet, etc. and if I'm not mistaken you guys are all doing step mashes with a range of temps, more or less using this technique:

http://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.org/lavery_brewing_tutorial.php

Recently, I saw this popup on the same site:

Single Infusion Mash For Gluten Free Malted Grains
http://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.org/all_grain_brewing_tutorial.php

Snippet:

"Single Infusion Mash is the recommended method for all-grain gluten free brewing by Grouse Malting & Roasting Co and Eckert Malting & Brewing Co. It is also a very simple all-grain mashing technique that requires minimal equipment or expertise. All of the milled grains and rice hulls are mixed with hot water and enzymes to achieve a mash at a temperature of 150-165F (Grouse Malting & Brewing Co recommends a mash temperature of 163.4F) for 90-120 minutes (Eckert Malting & Brewing Co recommends a mash time of over two hours)..."

This seems too simple and too good to be true. I'd be interested in any comments you all have about it. I'm willing to give this a try as its much simpler process for my first GF all-grain batch.

And if this is doomed from the start, please save me from it :fro:

I have only tried a single infusion mash with millet once and the results were sub-par to say the least. I mashed at 160 F for 60 min. According to the article I should have mashed longer but it also says in step 4 to add alpha amylase enzyme to the mash along with the strike water. I did not do this maybe adding the enzyme in the mash is what I needed to do.

FlyByNightBrew said:

I have only tried a single infusion mash with millet once and the results were sub-par to say the least. I mashed at 160 F for 60 min. According to the article I should have mashed longer but it also says in step 4 to add alpha amylase enzyme to the mash along with the strike water. I did not do this maybe adding the enzyme in the mash is what I needed to do.

Click to expand...

Right, 1.5-2 hours at 164F and amylase appears crucial to the process.

At this point I'm planning to mash in a 10g igloo and use BIAB instead of installing a false bottom in the igloo.

I have not tried it, but I suspect that they are trying hard to find a way to make GF brewing more approachable.
Many people come to GF brewing having never made beer before...a complex step mash and a 6 hour brew day might scare many people off.
My guess is that with enough time and amylase, it probably works OK but effiency probably suffers with this method.
This method would probably be great for a partial mash.
If anyone gives it a try, please post your results!

There is a lot of discussion of mash schedule on this forum and there is still a lot to be discovered and learned. I started with a step mash schedule, tried to simplify and ended up back with a step mash because I do partial mash and want to get as much as I can out of the 8 lb of grain. Another approach is to just use more grain. For an all grain where you are already working with a lot of grain, a few extra pounds may be easier than working all that mash through multiple temperature rests. See this post from Osedax:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/my-house-ipa-444119/

Here are some other posts that may be of interest if you have not already read them:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/easier-mash-schedule-millet-473845/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/dialing-millet-mash-467399/

I am intrigued by recent posts where people are experimenting with supplemental enzymes. This and if growers develop millet and rice specifically for brewing, we might get to a high efficiency single infusion mash.

Legume said:

I have not tried it, but I suspect that they are trying hard to find a way to make GF brewing more approachable.
Many people come to GF brewing having never made beer before...a complex step mash and a 6 hour brew day might scare many people off.
My guess is that with enough time and amylase, it probably works OK but effiency probably suffers with this method.
This method would probably be great for a partial mash.
If anyone gives it a try, please post your results!

Click to expand...

That's exactly where I've been at... reading the step mash process and being nearly paralyzed at the prospect of it all. This single infusion method is something I can get my head around and possibly pull off.

I have 10lbs of grouse pale and 5lbs of grouse crystal on the way . In retrospect I should have ordered 15lbs of pale so this will undoubtedly be partial mash (with BRS, honey or turbinado getting me up to a SG in the 1.050-1.060 range).

I will try and document the process as I go and at worst, you all can get a laugh at how I bungle it. At least I can provide some entertainment.

glutarded-chris said:

There is a lot of discussion of mash schedule on this forum and there is still a lot to be discovered and learned. I started with a step mash schedule, tried to simplify and ended up back with a step mash because I do partial mash and want to get as much as I can out of the 8 lb of grain. Another approach is to just use more grain. For an all grain where you are already working with a lot of grain, a few extra pounds may be easier than working all that mash through multiple temperature rests. See this post from Osedax:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/my-house-ipa-444119/

Here are some other posts that may be of interest if you have not already read them:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/easier-mash-schedule-millet-473845/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/dialing-millet-mash-467399/

I am intrigued by recent posts where people are experimenting with supplemental enzymes. This and if growers develop millet and rice specifically for brewing, we might get to a high efficiency single infusion mash.

Click to expand...

thanks Chris. these are good posts to have handy. I've read osedax's house IPA post before but the details are making more of an impact now.

Igs' post is great too! I bet he's dialed in that millet mash now, eh! His brewery is about 5 hours drive over on the "west side" and I do plan to visit once GF is open and running.

thanks again.

Got my grouse millet malt today from GFHB !

++ on that. I am an experienced brewer who developed an allergy to barley. I'm watching glutarded-chris's experiments with alacrity! I'm on Team Glutarded, 100%. I think there are a lot of folks -- like me-- on the sidelines watching and hoping Thank ya'll for the hard work!

mergs said:

That's exactly where I've been at... reading the step mash process and being nearly paralyzed at the prospect of it all. This single infusion method is something I can get my head around and possibly pull off.

I have 10lbs of grouse pale and 5lbs of grouse crystal on the way . In retrospect I should have ordered 15lbs of pale so this will undoubtedly be partial mash (with BRS, honey or turbinado getting me up to a SG in the 1.050-1.060 range).

I will try and document the process as I go and at worst, you all can get a laugh at how I bungle it. At least I can provide some entertainment.

Click to expand...

I can confirm that single-infusion works. For best results, use an amylase addition as directed. At Ghostfish we do a 2-hour mash from between 152°F to 158°F, and I honestly can't say that I have noted any major differences. I crush the grain with a 2-roller mill and seem to be getting good results with a .63 mm gap setting. The v-wire on our false bottom is gapped at about .7 mm, but unfortunately (because the screen has to be modular to remove through the manway) the gaps between screen modules exceed 3 mm in places and allow a bit of grain through.

The single most important thing I have learned when mashing with millet is DO NOT FLY SPARGE. The nature of the grain bed is to cause severe channeling of the runoff, even with copious amounts of rice hulls. You just CANNOT get a good rinse of all parts of the grain bed. If you taste the spent grain, it should be completely bland--if you find any sweetness, you left sugars behind and need to tweak your sparge method.

On our first few "big" batches we sparged the way the system was designed--i.e. a slow run-off with the sparge ring keeping 1-2" of water above the grain bed the whole time, and we achieved terrible efficiency compared to what I was getting on my 3-gallon setup where I batch sparged everything. I chalked it up to the bad crush we were getting with the grooved rollers on our mill, but when we installed our 0.5-bbl pilot system, I used the same Monster Mill I've been using for 3-gallon batches for years and got similarly bad efficiency. I decided to try fly sparging on my old 3-gallon setup just to isolate variables, and indeed! Terrible efficiency. So I tried a very tedious underlet-infusion batch sparge technique on the pilot system with LOTS of mixing at each step of the sparge, and wouldn't you know it, I was back at the same kind of efficiency I was accustomed to before!

For the record, for pale millet malt I assume a max system efficiency of 75% and a max theoretical yield of 30 PPG, and I hit my numbers within one or two points almost every single time. It also helps to do smaller batches when batch sparging--3 or 4 instead of 1 or 2. I do use rice hulls because the grain bed is pretty gummy by the 3rd sparge and after one 14-hour day on the pilot system (pre-rice hulls) I vowed never to stick the sparge like that again! I use around 1/7th of a pound of rice hulls for every pound of grain and finally have normal-length brew days again.

As to how it's going to work on the big system, I don't know yet because I'm still waiting on a set of knurled rollers. Grooved rollers at 10 grooves per inch do NOT do the job. But I intend to use a similar method as I do on the pilot--mash, vorlauf, drain, underlet, mix, vorlauf, drain, underlet, mix, vorlauf, drain. It'll be a long brew day, but 70% efficiency vs 15% efficiency makes it very worth it. I'm sure I'll eventually streamline it.

I should also note, on the pilot system I wrap the Blichmann button-louver fals bottom in a nylon mesh bag. Learned the hard way on the first brew day that Chugger pump inlets are easily clogged by stray grains. We haven't settled on the best solution for those 3 mm gaps on our 15 bbl MLT, but I'm thinking a filter grant is the most practical option. Beats jamming silicone tubing into the gaps with a putty knife....

Hey Igliashon, good to have you back and good to hear about your brewery.

What you are saying pretty much confirms my experience. I thought it was a system fault because fly sparging always screwed me over. Batch sparging always worked better. I'm going to try the underlet method to see if that helps a bit. I don't normally do an underlet because of the RIMS setup.

You cannot go wrong with a grant. Great investment if you ask me. I built one in about an hour with spare parts I had laying around and a $10 container from Bed, Bath, and Beyond. I layer voile cloth in it and let 'er rip. Chugger pumps get easily jammed by small bits of grain. Especially, at the levels of fine grinding we are at.

I hope the single infusion works well on the big scale for you. I have been a big proponent of it since I started all grain but, mostly because I'm lazy.

I do 163F for 15 minutes followed by the normal 60-75 minute sacc rest. Do you think the longer mash works better? I have a RIMS so I can keep the temps consistent for that long.

This is intriguing but I have a few questions if you guys don't mind.

So you are saying dough in at 155F and let sit for 2 hours. Do a few step sparges and go.

How stiff is the mash at the long 155F rest?
How much total sparge water do you use?
With that process, how much do you have to boil off to get to a reasonable pitching gravity?

From what I have read, the Amylase available to most homebrewers is denatured above about 140F so what kind of Amylase are you using and when are you adding it?

That is what Igliashon is saying. I am saying 163F to 155F to mashout.

I aim for a grist ratio of 1.5 qt/lb but, I will go thinner if I am using oats, buckwheat, or a huge grain bill. That's because it helps with the recirculation on my RIMS.

You would use as much sparge water as you need to get to preboil. If I have 7 gallons of first runnings in my kettle, I would sparge with 5 gallons to get to 12. I do 10 gallon batches. I also do 90 minute boils and see slightly better efficiency because of it. My boil off in my kettle is 1 1/3 per hour.

Hope that helps.

I might try something like that and see what happens. No cereal mash with the buckwheat?

Is "underlet" just adding the sparge water to the bottom of the mash tun and letting it percolate upwards rather than dumping from the top? If so, and the mash is stirred after adding the sparge water, then how would the underlet be any better than just adding the sparge water and stirring the mash?

No cereal mash with the buckwheat, correct. The mash liquefies within 10 minutes, usually within 5. I aim for around 1.5 qt/lb of strike water. My batch sparges usually fill my MLT about 75% of its capacity. Underletting creates an upwelling that flushes the bottom-most grains; in my experience with fly sparging the bottom layer almost never got rinsed. The underletting also makes it easier to stir the grains--I brew half-bbl batches on the pilot system and trust me, stirring alone does not get a good enough mix. If you're on a smaller system the underletting is not necessary. I use SEBAmyl-L40 for my amylase and add ViscoSEB when using buckwheat to break down the xylose and improve my extraction. One problem I have still not solved in the mash is that my dark beers even with copious amounts of amylase have trouble attenuating to terminal gravity; however, my band-aid solution of adding amylase to primary solves the problem every time, so I am not too concerned.

Ah, that makes!
What enzymes would you use that are available to us mortals? I am still using the stuff from EC Kraus.

glutarded-chris said:

Ah, that makes!
What enzymes would you use that are available to us mortals? I am still using the stuff from EC Kraus.

Click to expand...

Chris, I know that was directed at Igs but I am using this:

http://www.kegworks.com/amg-300l-liquid-exo-alpha-amylase-4-oz

I either got it from LHBS or glutenfreehomebrewing.com

Thanks!
I just ordered a bunch of grain and threw in some liquid amylase with the order. Have to compare to the type you reference.

The stuff from EC Kraus works fine.

Ok, I am a believer now! Based on all the recent discussion, I brewed my second AG batch today and went for a simple mash. I got what I consider very respectable results. Not exactly a single infusion, but close.

The directions for the enzymes said to do a 125F rest with the enzymes for 30 minutes and then rest at 155F or so. I always questioned whether I got good mixing of the enzymes when adding to the mash, so I did a simple extra step at the beginning to add the enzymes to the strike water at a temperature the enzymes like. Had to balance the infusion but it worked really well.

What I did was very simple:

5 gallon batch with 14 lb grain bill

12.5 quarts strike water at 125F with enzymes mixed in.
Add grain which results in temperature drop to about 115F
Add 1.5+ quarts of boiling water to get mash temp back up to 125F. This results in a grist ratio of about 1 quarts/lb. Rest at 125F for 30 minutes.

Add 7 quarts boiling water + a little heat to get mash to 160F. This results in grist ratio of about 1.5 quarts/lb. Transfer to coolers lined with voile bags and rest for 2 hours. The temperature did not drop below 150F by the end of the rest.

I sparged with 3 gallons (3 separate 1 gallon sparges) and collected just shy of 7 gallons of 1.046 wart. My calcs put that at about 22.7 ppg which is close to what I was getting with a super complicated mash schedule!

My grain bill included 1.5 lb Buckwheat which I did not cerial mash separately. This worked great and was so much less production then my complicated mash schedules! I am stoked!

This is great news Chris!

Can u provide the grain bill details and enzymes u used?

I used Diatase enzyme from E C Kraus.

I hesitate to show the grain bill because it looks a little weird. I really wanted to try the new Grouse munich millet and James Brown rice malts. I also had a lot of small amounts of various malts from previous batches that I decided to stitch together. The real goal was to try to get the simple mash to work. Made sure to hold the amount with significant roast to below 25%. Just hoping it will be ok as there is a lot going on in it!

5 lb millet pale
5 lb millet Munich
0.75 lb millet light roast
0.75 lb millet medium roast
1.0 lb rice - James Brown roast
0.75 lb buckwheat munich
0.75 lb buckwheat pale

0.6 oz Columbus (15.6 AA%) 60 minute boil time
1.3 oz Cascade (6.5 AA%) 15 minute boil time
1.5 oz Cascade (6.5 AA%) at flameout

~ 51 IBU

1.25 oz Cascade dry hop planned

OG = 1.061

Except for the cascade it looks a lot like a Munich I used to brew. Thx!

Hops were also left over from previous batches. What hops did you use in your Munich?

Hallertau. W/ white labs 830. that's an amazing yeast. Temp controlled at 55f. OG of 1.055.

Temp control is the secret to that beer

This is very encouraging. Seems like we're closer to being able to pull off a partial mash/AG batch inside an apartment.

Now if only someone would sell milled GF grain.

glutarded-chris said:

Ok, I am a believer now! Based on all the recent discussion, I brewed my second AG batch today and went for a simple mash. I got what I consider very respectable results. Not exactly a single infusion, but close.

The directions for the enzymes said to do a 125F rest with the enzymes for 30 minutes and then rest at 155F or so. I always questioned whether I got good mixing of the enzymes when adding to the mash, so I did a simple extra step at the beginning to add the enzymes to the strike water at a temperature the enzymes like. Had to balance the infusion but it worked really well.

What I did was very simple:

5 gallon batch with 14 lb grain bill

12.5 quarts strike water at 125F with enzymes mixed in.
Add grain which results in temperature drop to about 115F
Add 1.5+ quarts of boiling water to get mash temp back up to 125F. This results in a grist ratio of about 1 quarts/lb. Rest at 125F for 30 minutes.

Add 7 quarts boiling water + a little heat to get mash to 160F. This results in grist ratio of about 1.5 quarts/lb. Transfer to coolers lined with voile bags and rest for 2 hours. The temperature did not drop below 150F by the end of the rest.

I sparged with 3 gallons (3 separate 1 gallon sparges) and collected just shy of 7 gallons of 1.046 wart. My calcs put that at about 22.7 ppg which is close to what I was getting with a super complicated mash schedule!

My grain bill included 1.5 lb Buckwheat which I did not cerial mash separately. This worked great and was so much less production then my complicated mash schedules! I am stoked!

Click to expand...

Awesome!

I like this idea about mixing in the enzymes first but I never tried it because my strike temps we over the denature point of the enzymes so I added them after water and grain (targeted 158F target temps last time). I may try a version of this myself next time. My limiting factor is really my kettle size so I am using the igloo cooler mash tun so I'd need to start there, or start in a kettle, move it to a warmed cooler then add in the amount at the end of the 30 mins to get me to my target temps of 158F or thereabouts. I also use biab mesh bag in the cooler.

Please do keep us appraised of how this goes.

I kegged my batch on Sunday and had a sip today... not carbed of course but coming along normally.

There's an odd taste to mine. It tastes like sweetness I can't quite identify. I'm wondering if its the crystal malt. I read once that we as brewers should go "easy on the crystal", maybe I over did it. I'll reserve judgement until its carbed, probably by Sunday it will be ready but then I'll want to give it another 1-2 weeks to condition.

Also, Igs suggestion to cold crash seems to be a good one. I racked to secondary simply to do the cold crash and there was a layer of trub on the bottom and the beer was probably the clearest gluten free batch of mine to date. Can't wait til its ready!

Thanks for the ideas Chris!