Yeast starter blowoff

Hi,

First time using wlp001 and it wandered merrily out of my 2L flask (lost about 200 ml and not much yeast at the bottom of the flask after cold crashing). Stepped it up, this time with a carboy cap and blowoff tube going into a small container with StarSan in it. Noticed today that the little critters went crazy again. In fact, there was a nice little cake at the bottom of the blowoff container.

Next time, can I use distilled water in a sanitized, closed container with airlock as a blowoff container and reintroduce the yeast in the starter? WLP001 is really starting to piss me off, but that would solve problems I had earlier with other straons (I'm looking at YOU, wyeast 3944)

Most would advise not using a blow off or airlock on a starter. You want the air/yeast contact in order to aid the reproduction of the yeast. You're not really going for fermentation with a starter, it's more just to prep the yeast for their real job of fermenting the wort.

You have a few options. You can use a slightly smaller starter, get a larger flask, run a second starter, run your starter for less time or create a less fermentable starter. Or maybe a combination of these things. Hope that helps!

Fermcap will prevent blowoff. I had starter blowoffs until I started using it.

Yeah I don't really believe much oxygen is introduced via the "loosely foiled" opening. I think the point of stirring is more to remove co2 from the fermenting wort and maximizing surface contact between the yeast and sugars nutrients.

Except, for the larger flask option, I tried everything you said. Still blown off after 5-6 hours. Seems like I have less yeast remaining.

I'll just try my method and ses for myself.

wardens355 said:

Fermcap will prevent blowoff. I had starter blowoffs until I started using it.

Click to expand...

Don't want to use it.

1056, 001 does this to me too. I've used fermcap in starters of 1056 (1800ml in a 2000ml flask). It definitely helped, but I ended up babysitting the starter during high activity. I had to swirl the krausen down every 10 minutes for a few hours.... Not fun.

Using a 5000 ml flask is the best option. You don't want anything escaping the starter through a blow off tube. I assume you could collect in a secondary vessel as you mentioned, but a bigger flask would be ideal.

So im of the mind to agree with others that Fermcap works well... I've used it with great success on my starters in my 2L flasks... Also I would probably not want to re-introduce yeast that was captured after going through the blow off tube... I think it increases your risk or infection (Sorry just a little paranoid about that).

So if you don't want to use fermcap, then the 5L is your best bet unless you get like a 1 g or 2.5g carboy to make starters in...

Yeah, screw it. 5L flask it is. Damn I wish I'd learn my les son and always go for the biggest...

ph0ngwh0ng said:

Yeah, screw it. 5L flask it is. Damn I wish I'd learn my les son and always go for the biggest...

Click to expand...

I still get blowoff with 1056/001 in a 5L flask, even with 1-2L starters.

Crazy Krausen

wardens355 said:

I still get blowoff with 1056/001 in a 5L flask, even with 1-2L starters.

Crazy Krausen

Click to expand...

Oh well, I'm rigging up my Poorman's Burton union for starters then. We'll see how this turns out.

Find a 1 gallon glass jug and use that. I've never had a problem with 2L/2quart starters

DurtyChemist said:

Find a 1 gallon glass jug and use that. I've never had a problem with 2L/2quart starters

Click to expand...

1 gallon = 3.96 liters. Do you use a stirplate with that?

ph0ngwh0ng said:

Yeah, screw it. 5L flask it is. Damn I wish I'd learn my les son and always go for the biggest...

Click to expand...

I'm also sick of my stupid 2L flask blowing off. I seem to like to use seriously top cropping yeast and make a lot of high gravity beers. In addition I like to save starter yeast. This morning after having to dump my 1 liter of west Yorkshire yeast starter into a one gallon jug again I vowed to order a 5L flask today. I've got a bunch of big Belgians I'm making soon and I don't have the patience for this yeasty shenanigans.

I also won't use ferm-cap. I just hope my stirplate can handle the bigger flask. If not guess I'll have to make a new one.




Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

ph0ngwh0ng said:

1 gallon = 3.96 liters. Do you use a stirplate with that?

Click to expand...

I can't use 1 gallon jugs on my stirplate. The jugs don't have flat bottoms and the stir bar gets thrown immediately.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Pardon me while I be a stickler... 1gl is 3.785 liters. Look at the Rubbermaid I gallon plastic pitcher. The bottom is not all that convex and the stir bar doesn't get thrown all that much. I have done a gallon starter but I just took the time to scoop the krausen twice a day until the starter was done. But I know some are not interested in messing with a starter like that because of potential for infection.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Gixxer said:

Pardon me while I be a stickler... 1gl is 3.785 liters. Look at the Rubbermaid I gallon plastic pitcher. The bottom is not all that convex and the stir bar doesn't get thrown all that much. I have done a gallon starter but I just took the time to scoop the krausen twice a day until the starter was done. But I know some are not interested in messing with a starter like that because of potential for infection.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Click to expand...

Yes you're right. Messed up with 5 gal = 18.96 L. Still, won't use plastic, won't scoop, won't use fermcap. If you can scoop your starter and not get infections, Burton union ftw for me. Expect pics soon!

mclaughlindw4 said:

I also won't use ferm-cap.

Click to expand...

Why not? What do you have against Fermcap?

I would also recommend fermcap-s. I've not used in until my last two starters and now I dread the day I find out that I've run out. I've gone from "babysitting starters all day long and worrying at night" to "liquid is a couple inches from the top and no worries on the 1/8 inch of foam". It's a big weight off my back when it comes to starters.

BTW,
Fermcap-S is simethicone
Simethicone is the active ingredient in Gas-X, Alka-Seltzer Gas Relief, Mylanta, Mylicon, Maalox

I can certainly understand not wanting to use something in my beer that might harm my body/organs, but if I was too hard-core about it then I'd have to quit drinking beer, wine, whisky, coffee, taking ibuprofen, tylenol, and the list goes on and on

stpug said:

I can certainly understand not wanting to use something in my beer that might harm my body/organs, but if I was too hard-core about it then I'd have to quit drinking beer, wine, whisky, coffee, taking ibuprofen, tylenol, and the list goes on and on

Click to expand...

My understanding is that the Fermcap only remains in suspension during "agitation" (i.e., active fermentation) anyway, and settles out to the bottom once things calm down. I don't believe much (any?) of it actually makes it into your glass anyway.

wardens355 said:

I still get blowoff with 1056/001 in a 5L flask, even with 1-2L starters.

Crazy Krausen

Click to expand...

Saw our picture in the other thread. How hard are you spinning the starter? If you run it hard enough to get a vortex hitting the stir bar, it will tend to foam up badly from the additional aeration. If you run it slower, enough to keep sediment from forming, but slow enough to not create a vortex down to the stir bar, you'll get less foaming.

kombat said:

Why not? What do you have against Fermcap?

Click to expand...

They way it went down was like this. I purchased the fermcap and used it for a while. I then learned of this whole FDA thing saying and silicone added to beer needed to be filtered out. I don't filter my beer.

I wrote to Northern Brewer expressing my concern and figuring they had looked into it and would put my concerns at ease. The response I got was that they had looked into it a little bit. I believe they said to reach the levels of silicone the FDA was talking about would take 2 drops per 5 gallon batch. They suggested if I was really concerned I should limit the amount I use to 1 drop per batch. Which obviously would not accomplish anything.

I then poked around at various forums and threads and found all manner of explanation as to what happens to the fermcap. "it drops out of solution and is left with the trub" or "it sticks to the sides of the fermenters" and many other suggestions. This led me to believe that no one knows what it does. Perhaps it is the same active ingredient in alka seltzer. I also don't drink 6 to 12 alka seltzers a week.

I don't know why the FDA decides to poke their noses in some things but ignore others. I suppose it's all politics. Chances are it's probably fine, I just choose to be on the safe side regarding putting chemicals in my beer. If it means I need larger vessels than so be it.

mclaughlindw4 said:

I then poked around at various forums and threads and found all manner of explanation as to what happens to the fermcap. "it drops out of solution and is left with the trub" or "it sticks to the sides of the fermenters" and many other suggestions. This led me to believe that no one knows what it does. Perhaps it is the same active ingredient in alka seltzer. I also don't drink 6 to 12 alka seltzers a week.

Click to expand...

I searched around for info and thought this thread was helpful:
Any Toxic Effects From Fermcap...

Apparently the same compound as is used in gas control products. The "safe" dose for kids in a day (~3-4 mL) is more than I use in 11 gallons of beer (~1-2 mL). So 11 gallons is 88 pints, that's 0.023 mL of gas control compound per pint. I am not worried about the effects of that small of amount. Plus, if it does drop out mostly, then that amount is even smaller.

Further research: Dimethicone is also known as polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS). More info on the compound can be found in this WHO study (pg 165):
WHO Food Additives Study

Some interesting tidbits:

"Observations in humans
In an evaluation of human exposure, it was concluded that PDMS is not absorbed to any appreciable extent through the skin or from the gastrointestinal tract, from which it is rapidly excreted unchanged in the faeces (European Centre for Ecotoxicology and Toxicology of Chemicals, 1994)."

"PDMS is a silicon-based organic polymer that is used as an antifoaming agent in fruit and vegetable juices, an anticaking agent in confectionery and flour products, and an emulsifier in edible oils essentially free of water.

PDMS is included in the current version of the Codex General Standard for Food Additives (GSFA) for use in a wide range of foods at acceptable maximum levels from 10 to 110 mg/kg food"

Acceptable daily intake (ADI) suggestion was up to 0.8 mg per kg of bodyweight. For a 150-lb man, that's around 50 mg, which I think is more than a whole bottle of Fermcap (I don't know its density so cannot say for certain, but 1 ounce of water is 30 mg +/-, so an ounce of Fermcap is probably around that)...

Wobbegong said:

Saw our picture in the other thread. How hard are you spinning the starter? If you run it hard enough to get a vortex hitting the stir bar, it will tend to foam up badly from the additional aeration. If you run it slower, enough to keep sediment from forming, but slow enough to not create a vortex down to the stir bar, you'll get less foaming.

Click to expand...

I spin until I start to see a vortex, but not much more than that. I put a drop or two of Fermcap in depending on size of starter and that keeps it under control.

wardens355 said:

Further research: Dimethicone is also known as polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS). More info on the compound can be found in this WHO study (pg 165):
WHO Food Additives Study

Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks a bunch for sifting through this thing and finding the pertinent info to the discussion. I tried to read through it myself.

I was luckily able to dig up the e-mail response I go tfrom Northern Brewer. Is it ok to post the whole thing? I'm not sure, but my memory had it pretty much right so to summarize the response: the FDA limit is 10 PPM, which he had found was comparable to 2-3 drops of fermcap-s. The FDA limit he says is in the finished product, but there are no hard numbers to show how much remains in the finished product.

Other links I found tonight which were the same ones I read originally which made me decide to stop using it...

A link to the birko website (whom I think makes fermcap-S???) scroll down to the "is it legal" section...

http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/white-papers/antifoams/

Another mention of a response from Birko about using fermcap-s (first post on the thread)...

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/50162/50540.html?1304008514

One thing to note from the WHO study is although the range is from 10 to 110 ppm across types of food. Table 2 shows Aromatized alcoholic beverages as being a max of 10 ppm, which is consistent with FDA.

wardens355 said:

Acceptable daily intake (ADI) suggestion was up to 0.8 mg per kg of bodyweight. For a 150-lb man, that's around 50 mg, which I think is more than a whole bottle of Fermcap (I don't know its density so cannot say for certain, but 1 ounce of water is 30 mg +/-, so an ounce of Fermcap is probably around that)...

Click to expand...

I'd like to have someone figure that out. It could be a lot different right? Because fermcap is pretty viscous stuff. I threw mine away otherwise I would do it. At any rate it could be a good point. So how much beer at 10 ppm would that be? I can't do that math now it is too late.

I will also add the ingredients in that long list of anti-gas products (I just picked a couple random ones) is simethicone, not PDMS (what fermcap-s is). Not trying to argue here, just want a good discussion.

mclaughlindw4 said:

I'd like to have someone figure that out. It could be a lot different right? Because fermcap is pretty viscous stuff. I threw mine away otherwise I would do it. At any rate it could be a good point. So how much beer at 10 ppm would that be? I can't do that math now it is too late.

Click to expand...

From what I read, dimethicone is PDMS, just a different name. You google density of PDMS and it is less than that of water. Apparently the solution is 1.0 - 1.1 specific gravity, so let's just say its the same as water. Oil is more viscous than water, but has a lower density, so its viscosity isn't relevant.

Let's say its density is equal to water (which is more dense apparently). So 1 g/mL. MSDS shows defoamer is 10% PDMS/dimethicone:
Defoamer MSDS

So for the 1 g/mL defoamer solution, we have 0.1 g/mL PDMS.

About 20 drops of water equal one mL, so let's assume with the increased viscosity we get 10 drops of Fermcap in a mL. I add 2 drops per gallon. So for a 10 gallon batch, that's 20 drops, or 2 mL. With PDMS content of 0.1 g/mL, we get 0.2 grams of PDMS.

So we have 0.2 grams (200 mg) of PDMS. 10 gallons of beer is approximately 37.8 L. 200 mg in 37.8 L is 5.3 mg/L. You are below the 10 mg/L "max use level". If you use in both the boil kettle and the fermenter, you are right around 10 mg/L, unless you use less than 2 drops per gallon, then you are below. This estimate does not account for any loss (attaching to proteins, yeast cells, etc), which some people have claimed can be significant. If there is significant loss, we are well under the 10 mg/L max use.

So 4 pints (1.89 L) would have under 20 mg of PDMS, and the acceptable daily intake is 50 mg. 10 pints and you are potentially approaching 50 mg (again, assuming it all sticks around through the whole boil, fermentation, and kegging/bottling process).

Anyhow, I may have mistakes above, but I have a few homebrews in me (Fermcap influenced!), so no apologies here. Hopefully it makes sense. I am still comfortable using Fermcap.

Wow, thanks a lot for going through those articles and crunching the numbers for us. It certainly reconciled me with Fermcap. I'll try it out in my next starter.